What do you think is the best combo involving 2 3 cmc creatures? We should beat any grindy deck, the combo would be to beat unfair decks that don’t play Thassa oracle. Opposition agent plus merelen is great vs combo, only requires 1 bad card and is in colour. But it doesn’t stabilize the board and loses to any removal.Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
I have tried GSZ, but it doesn’t play nearly as well with Seagate (5 mana play rather than 4 mana for copying to be decent, doesn’t find Seagate).
Ok experimented with dropping the infinite combo. Replaced it with hatebears and a value combo of Liliana plus uro. uro immediately flips her, making a zombie and either pulsing, getting back a vet or cashing her in for an uro trigger. The thought is that or uro plus hatebear should beat most things but each card is strong individually, per kombatkiwi’s advice.
2 Field of the Dead
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Swamp
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Island
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 underground sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Once upon a time
4 Brainstorm
4 Seagate Stormcaller
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Baleful Strix
3 Assassins Trophy
4 Neoform
2 Uro, Titan of nature’s wrath
1 Liliana, heretic healer
1 Leovold, emissary of treat
1 Plague Engineer
1 Meren of clan Nel north
4 Force of will
Yeah honestly I have no idea if it's actually better but that is the approach I would take
Interested to know how it goes
The liliana idea is pretty good
These Neoform lists look awesome, especially whatever build was the last matchup that ended up being a NicFit mirror in this video... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hAebViSo3AM&t=8467s Ouat GSZ and neoform really support Brainstorm so well.
Seagate Stormcaller for the combo seems like the slowest and clunkiest thing in these builds.
Why use up so many slots for Stormcaller and a combo when Vet turn 1, neoform turn 2 gets you to 5 mana and a guarenteed escaped uro next turn by turn 2 thanks to Snapcaster shenanigans.Neoform really does play amazingly well with Baleful Strix and Flash Snake.
Given those awesome line, instead of Stormcaller, I would rather play GSZs to get Dryad Arbors, and Vet Explorers, and I would make room for more silver bullets to grab with Neoform or GSZ, such as Scooze, Ouphe, Meren, Leovold, Opposition Agent, Plague Engineer, Eternal Witness, maybe even Questing Beast to Neoform up using Eternal Witness against planeswalkers and Elder Gargorath as an awesome GSZ target when you have tons of mana.
Why do you think Seagate is clunky? I built this deck primarily since sea gate is the best possible creature to cabal therapy with after vet explorer. With 8 good sac-spell enablers (vet plus Seagate) and 8 good sac-spells (therapy plus neoform) the deck consistently has one of each. T1 cabal therapy t2 Seagate double therapy can be devestating. Seagate also has a built in mana sink which seems useful in nic fit.
Unlike cabal therapy, you can’t neoform first and get explorer later. Gsz + neoform is t3 at the earliest. So that’s why I built around ouat instead of gsz. If you want gsz, ouat and brainstorm I think that’s a lot of durdle cards which don’t play nicely together. You can’t ouat into bs or gsz like ponder into bs. Green sun has anti-synergy with natural snaps, whereas natural snaps like the cards Seagate wants (trophy/brainstorm/ouat) and helps your blue count.
I do have half of those targets. Not sure you can go full maverick and still support neoform/therapy/brainstorm/fow. Seagate plus trophy is my catch all to replace the less commonly used targets like q.beast
Yes that makes sense. The list makes a lot more sense now. Seems fun. Is 2 Field of the Dead too many? Also were you the opponent Thraben U faced in the final match of that Jund Nic Fit video here...
https://youtu.be/hAebViSo3AM
The list looks identical to yours except that it played opposition agent as well, it played well.
yea this is a smart post
I want to fit one Spellseeker because it lets you turn Neoform into a removal spell by getting Trophy, plus its still pretty solid if you topdeck it because it can find Neoform to turn itself into Meren (which then gets back the Spellseeker etc).
Can be an option to widen the toolbox of SB cards too (like you can get Surgical Extraction or whatever with it)
But yeah idk what the cut would be and the pool of other 3drops it's competing with is obviously extremely wide (like Hullbreacher or Oppo Agent or whatever)
I don’t know ftzz, the player in the vod. It looks like they were running my first build posted with the infinite life combo.
I could possibly cut a trophy for a spell seeker.
The infinite life combo was very cool as well, especially if you’re already maindecking 4 Neoform and 4 Sea Gate
You have so many cool brews and clearly play mtgo a lot. You should consider filming some of your leagues with your unique brews and uploading them to youtube and sharing them on reddit. I think it would get a lot of views.
Sea Gate is very powerful to pair with Therapy. But it would even more powerful and consistent in a build that's plays Hymn/Thoughtseize alongside Therapy.
You mentioned the Opposition Agent and Merelan of the Mornsong combo, and I agree with you that Mornsong is bad without Opposition Agent, but Opposition Agent is a fantastic card if paired with Dark Ritual. Ritual into Opp in response to a fetch or crop rotation or entomb on turn one has won me gamesin Deadguy Ale, especially against combo decks.
Ritual could take the slots Field of the Dead is taking, as the decks that give Nic Fit the hardest time are the fast aggressive comboesque decks that Ritual into either Hymn or Opposition agent would help with. Nic Fit already shines in the kind of slow grindy matchups where Field shines.
I wonder if it might make sense to rethink Nic Fit a bit, and try a build that accommodates and supports both Dark Ritual and Veteran Explorer as explosive early plays and also accommodates the Mornsong + Opp Agent as a midgame hardlock for inevitability.
Basically take the above list you posted and cut..
-2 Field of the Dead or some other Lands
-3 OuaT
-1 Neoform
-1 Uro
-1 Ass Trophy
-4 FoW
to add
+3 Dark Ritual
+1 Green Suns Zenith
+3 Opposition Agent
+1 Merelan of the Mornsong
+4 Hymn and/or Thoughtseize to clear the way for the combo, abuse Dark Ritual and to pair with both Cabal Therapy and Sea Gate. A turn two Dark Ritual > Sea Gate > Hymn to make your opponent randomly discard 4 cards is insanely powerful.
It's also possible that the optimal build plays GSZ to better abuse Dark Ritual mana to GSZ out Leovold or Meren on turn 2 or a turn 3 Primeval Titan, or perhaps Ritual would suit an 8 Rector build, but the natural synergy between Ritual, Opposition Agent and Sea Gate makes me want to try this version. There is still much to be explored with Nic Fit.
Between all the black cards, stuff like GSZ or Snapcaster and the occasionally kickable Sea Gate, the hope is that you will have always have lots of ways to utilize the rituals. And Rituals also work great with postboard Leyline, Lost Legacy, Plague Engineer to shut down aggressive or combo decks before they can go off. Or the Rituals could be sided out for carpet of flowers against controlling grindy blue decks.
Something along those lines also gives the deck more explosive/Disruptive early plays similar to Sui Black style decks. It would definitely improve our combo match-up.
Last edited by Captain Hammer; 04-11-2021 at 12:26 AM.
This advice feels like 'put rituals in your jund deck to cast your lilianas faster', like ritual doesn't have much to do in this deck outside of the only 3x Opposition Agent that you are adding which is just a much worse card after turn 1 (maybe maindeck Oppo Agent is more justified iin a deck with Ancient Tomb / Chrome Mox etc in addition to rituals), you are cutting ouat/neoform which weakens the whole explorer/seagate/therapy/neoform setup, cutting good cards like uro/trophy for situational cards like Maralen, and then does playing Hymn or Thoughtseize instead of FoW really help the combo matchup that much anyway-2 Field of the Dead or some other Lands
-3 OuaT
-1 Neoform
-1 Uro
-1 Ass Trophy
-4 FoW
to add
+3 Dark Ritual
+1 Green Suns Zenith
+3 Opposition Agent
+1 Merelan of the Mornsong
+4 Hymn and/or Thoughtseize
edit:
the 'cut fotd you are a nicfit deck that wins the lategame anyway' is a reasonable heuristic but if e.g. your uros get surgicaled then things might get a bit sketchy, this list isn't really playing those kind of fatty boom boom cards (Titania or big pw etc) and I think fotd is maybe a better choice than those
Last edited by kombatkiwi; 04-12-2021 at 06:52 AM.
Its not just Hymn/Thoughseize, a fast Opposition Agent is excellent against combo decks, and Ritual gets it out turn 1, or vet explorer or zenithing a dryad arbor turn 1 lets you cast Agent on turn 2. Using ritual and zenith to land a turn 2 Leovold is also helpful against some combo decks. And the ideal play of using Ritual and Sea Gate to duplicate a Hymn or Thoughtseize on turn 2 (or Ritual, Thoughtseize, Snapcaster, Thoughtseize) is devastating to most combo decks.
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