Congrats man that's awesome! I was busy all day today (personal life) and couldn't make it down. Bummer it wasn't last weekend. I'm very curious to see your 75 and notes. Really sucks your deck imploded in Top 8. We've all been there and it spoils an otherwise solid day.Originally Posted by Arianrhod
You just can't build anything without Bob in it eh?
I so want to play that 4 trackers 4SFM list, it seems so funny to play. The problem is that in theory it's just worse than rhino against delver, and to be honest I'm having problems against grixis even while playing rhino: stifle and/or CT-YP are a problem, sometimes you just can't play around it.
I agree that 2 maindeck Nissas are overkill right now, even Sigarda feels clunky as hell most of the times: the online meta is grixis delver storm show and chimp and reanimape-griseltard.dec. Everything is too fast.
I either want to play gb and have a solid combo mu, or play a revisited rhino list that tops the curve with rhino and plays low cmc stuff. The problem is that card draw is nice, but I have found that against grixis delver you just can't play too much card draw, because you don't want to bolt yourself over and over. 3-4 night whispers/truths are not a safe choice, I have found after a lot of testing with gb fit (no rhinos to compensate here).
I want to play a deck with hymns and lilianas, that's for sure, while having access to massive life gain to dominate fair decks with bolt. UR Delver is popular online and it's a problem of a matchup in my experience, it's so fast and has so many burn cards..
With rhino.dec it seems impossible to have both, liliana-hymn and lifegain, and I can't find some way to build a deck that satisfies my needs. Argh.
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Night's Whisper
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Sneak Attack
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
sb::
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Plague
1 Slaughter Games
2 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Blood Moon
2 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
This is the list I settled on for the event. I've explained most of my rationale for my choices previously, so I don't have much to say on that.
Let's see if I have anything specific to comment on from my matches --
Food Chain -- like I said, I flooded on garbage in g1. He established Chain + Griffin x2 + Scourge vs my Inferno Titan. Titan ensured I was only taking 3 damage per turn and he was spending his entire turn re-casting everything, but I needed to draw into something else to actually get ahead, and I never did. Game two I had a turn 3 Sneak Attack, which got Forced, and then he untapped into the full combo kill (cheating on mana via Deathrite). Really nothing to be done there.
I had a bye round 2 since there were an even number of players.
Merfolk -- game 1 was carried by Wurmcoil Engine and Diabolic Intent for Toxic Deluge to wipe out his True-Names. He Vensered my Wurmcoil back to my hand but didn't have enough damage to kill me, so when I re-played it, he miscounted and thought he could alpha me, which was disastrous for him. If he hadn't attacked, though, I would've been able to sweep him next turn regardless, because playing with Demonic Tutor is pretty amazing. Game two he melted me with t3 TNN t4 Phantasmal Image Phantasmal Image, and I just died. I had Meren with a couple Vets going, but that doesn't matter when he has 3 unblockable 3/1s. Game 3 I shredded his hand with Cabal Therapy and Eternal Witness, while a Deed stabilized the board. He drew lands and Vials, I drew business and inserted it.
RG Lands -- he has a double Crop Rotate hand g1 and kills me the turn before I would've killed him. Game two I hit him with Blood Moon and he's underprepared, with I believe 2 Grips and a Molten Vortex as live draws. He play draw-go for a million turns as I can't find anything to do once again, but I eventually manage to find a Zenith for Emrakul to kill him. Game 3 I have Blood Moon and in hand, but I hesitate to slam it since he's not really developing combo pieces quickly, opting to instead pre-emptively Lost Legacy him, naming Krosan Grip. This lets me safely slam the Moon the next turn. Eventually I Slaughter Games out his Molten Vortex and he concedes.
Tezzerator -- game 1 I shred his hand while ramping, Zenith up Tracker, and run away with the game. Sneak and Emrakul join the party a couple turns later, after Deeding his board and keeping his walkers under control with my 8/7 tracker. Game two I cheat on mana with Dryad Arbor and Phyrexian Tower, which allows me to slightly accelerate a Sneak-Emrakul the turn before he starts to turn the corner, as he'd developed several planeswalkers, a Crucible, and a couple other lock pieces.
Esperblade -- our game 1 is weird as shit, with both of us being mana screwed. I end up Therapying away a lot of his hand through Fierce Empath and Dryad Arbor, with two Deeds clearing out what he did manage to play. Eventually I hit my fourth land and stuck Sneak Attack, at which point he died quickly (I had Emrakul, Bellower, and Wurmcoil in hand >_<). Game two was much more elegant -- I obliterated his hand with Therapy+Vet, he failed to find basics, and I played Blood Moon (I saw UU, WW, and B cards game one, along with mono-Seas and Tundras, so I figured he was a greedy esper player and that Moon would be a KO. I was right). Game set match.
Nothing to say about the top 8 match -- I felt like I was plenty prepared for his deck, I just wasn't offered the ability to prove it. Felt bad man.
So, let's review the list somewhat:
Vets, Deathrite, Tribe-Elder -- all fine in the numbers they are currently present in. There are arguments for adding Tribe-Elders, which I will discuss in a bit.
EWit, Empath -- yup, nothing to see here.
Tracker -- only thing it did all day was vs Tezz, but I'm not sure how much of that is me underutilizing it, or was due to my matchups. It sure ran away with the Tezz game, though.
Meren -- I set her up a couple times and she was.....still mediocre, sadly. Her purpose was to ensure that I had slightly more continuous stream of creatures, but that never really happened.
Thragtusk -- actually saved my life game 1 vs Merfolk, buying me just enough time to get Wurmcoil going. Kind of meh, but I think it's a necessary evil -- you need a source of lifegain somewhere, and Thrag is still the best for that (in not-white).
Wurmcoil -- pretty good on the day. I'm content with this slot for now.
Inferno, Bellower, Emrakul -- yup. All still amazing.
Therapies and Zeniths -- n/a, although I wish I drew more Zeniths on the day.
Night's Whispers -- Mixed feelings. It did exactly what I wanted it to some times, but it also felt like it did nothing more than I wanted it to.
Diabolic Intents -- Amazing. Very happy with the pair, overperformed every time I had one. I never had one stranded without a body to sac, or at least never when I didn't have other things I wanted to do anyway.
Pulse -- Never really came up, but given the power of the Intents, I think that having the 1-shot kill basically anything in the deck is correct.
Deluge -- The maindeck copy definitely saved my bacon a couple times.
Bolts -- incredibly underwhelming. Granted that I didn't play against Delver, but I never had them when I wanted them and always had them when they did nothing.
Sneak Attacks -- I flooded on these a couple times, which felt really bad. But then there were also times where I could just run one into Force, knowing that I had a backup. I think this /has/ to stay at 4 copies and I just have to accept that sometimes I'm going to be mad about it.
Deeds -- overperformed on the day. I had to deal with a lot of non-creature permanents, and Deed's ability to just clean up everything was good, as it usually is.
Arbor -- also, somewhat surprisingly, overperformed. Being able to Zenith@0 as an additional ramp play gives a lot of depth to some hands, and being able to fetch into Therapies or cheat with Phyrexian Tower is good. Oddly, Arboring for Intent never actually came up, but I'm sure it will in the future.
2x Phyrexian Tower, 0 Volrath's -- I think this is correct for now. The 2nd Tower gives a lot more raw explosivity to the deck, which is good in a wild-west format like we live in now. Tower openers are your best shot against random combo decks, and can frequently lead to free wins against other opponents caught off-guard as well. Stronghold is still very powerful, but I think that it's not necessary at the moment.
Rest of manabase -- feels awkward, but am unsure of where the problem lies. It's not really so much that it feels bad or incorrect or that I was having egregious color difficulties or anything -- it just felt like it wasn't correct or perfect, either.
Surgicals -- still fine.
Rec Sage -- still fine.
Deluge -- came in a bunch, like having it there for sure.
Plague -- came in vs TNN decks, didn't play vs Elves, probably should be something better.
Lost Legacies, Slaughter Games -- the Slaughter was added over the 2nd Plague because I was unhappy with that slot and I didn't know what to add. These slots seemed like they were fine. There was an assload of Sneak and Show in that room.
To the Slaughter -- still convinced this is correct. Planeswalkers are popular, and it also hits Merit Lage or Show and Tell.
Chalice of the Void -- didn't play against Storm, but I think that dedicating the singleton slot with the pair of Intents is worth it.
Blood Moons -- Great. Very glad I picked them up and ran them -- they do exactly what we need vs Lands, and I like the idea of having them vs greedy Bug / Esper decks, as well as vs Eldrazi. I almost want a third copy, but I think that realistically, 2 is fine with the Intents.
Fatal Pushes, Decay -- mediocre on my day, but that's matchup-driven. I just didn't run into the Delver decks (of which there were plenty in the room) to need them, really.
Where that leaves us:
My biggest issue on the day was that I mulled a lot and I drew a lot of wonky hands where I would miss land drops or flood out. I managed to still make it work out okay for me, obviously, but it didn't feel great. The Whispers helped sometimes, but not as much as I needed them to. My current thoughts are to perhaps try to add a little bit more ramp to the deck -- possibly cut two Whispers for a 2nd Tribe Elder and a Nissa, Vastwood Seer. That will help smooth out hitting the land drops in the early game, as well as generating a bit of card advantage due to land-pulling. At the same time, I'm not sure that's the solution either because, as everyone who played Scape knows, sometimes having the heavier ramp core backfired in its own way.
I do want to retain one Whisper in the deck for sure, as a tutor target off a t1 Vet. I never needed to blow a tutor on a Whisper in that situation, but being able to go, for example, Therapy into GSZ@1 for Vet, sac, flashback, Whisper, was great, and I want the ability to have that chain off of t1 Vet into t2 Intent as well.
I consider the two Lightning Bolt slots open at the moment. I might just bump up the sweeper slots to 3 Deed 2 Deluge maindeck, which is something that I've done in the past in white control variants and has worked out. Alternatively, those slots might just go to...something else. I don't know what, yet. I don't have all of the answers at the moment. I like the direction the deck is moving, but it definitely needs a bit more smoothing out and a bit more tuning. The extra toolbox effect of the Intents makes the sideboard challenging to build, especially when we still don't really have a firmly established metagame and probably won't until Vegas. It doesn't help that I am likely to miss Mythic next month due to a vacation overlapping with it.
tl;dr: things are good but weird, and can be made a lot better, I think. Considering I still 5-1'd for top 8 through it all, I think that is a pretty good sign for us.
I can, I just haven't found a reason not to yet. It's a good 2 drop in a deck that's short on 2 drops.You just can't build anything without Bob in it eh?
@Arianrhod: Awesome read. I think there's a typo in the RG Lands matchup...as you can't Zenith for Emrakul. I believe you zenithed for empath -> emrakul?
As for deck updates, I have some suggestions.
The first would be to replace 3x Nights Whispers for 3x Faithless Looting. Hear me out on this. You usually have chaff in hand to dump. The flashback cost is completely accessible. This may also increase Meren's "value". I tried that + Grisly Salvage in the Reani-Fit experiment and they certainly dig through the deck. Faithless is better because it can be used twice.
Second, I would replace 2 bolts with 2 Decay straight up. Your report reminds me of the many decks still out in the format. I think Decay is under-appreciated ever since top was banned. The card simply nukes 90% of shit you see on the other end of the table. 2 in the main gives you flexibility, increases removal of permanents, and adds 1 spot to your sideboard (pulling the 1x you had there).
Third, I think your sneak deck operates better when you have 7 ramp bros. How good was arbor as bro #7? This is the card I'd swap for DRS/STE #2. You don't have space to make futher cuts and I would keep Meren > ramp bro #8.
Fourth, I would reconsider chalice, push, and the +1 slot from decay. That's 4 SB openings to do whatever you want. Maybe you want alternative creatures for specific matchups (Ruric Thar as an example or Stormbreath Dragon against Wx decks)? Maybe you want to be a jerk and drop an Ensnaring Bridge so people won't attack you lol? Maybe it's better served by SB planeswalkers. Maybe you want to all-in on chalice with 3-4x.
I have not played Sneak Fit in quite a while, but my last versions were on 2 Phyrexian Tower and I very much appreciated the added explosiveness. Can approve this change :)2x Phyrexian Tower, 0 Volrath's -- I think this is correct for now. The 2nd Tower gives a lot more raw explosivity to the deck, which is good in a wild-west format like we live in now. Tower openers are your best shot against random combo decks, and can frequently lead to free wins against other opponents caught off-guard as well. Stronghold is still very powerful, but I think that it's not necessary at the moment.
Thnx for the write up Kevin, and gz on the performance.
Dryad Arbor has been amezing for most people playing, while Meren hasn't been. I was always on the impression that Dryad Arbor was in any version of NicFit because it made Meren better, but could or should we play Dryad Arbor without Meren, based on the recent experiences?
3 Sneak Attack has always been the right number and imho Recurring Nightmare #1 is a better choice before Sneak Attack #4. But since we got the question running, isn't Recurring Nightmare not just a better card to be running along Wurmcoil Engine, Thragtusk and Inferno Titan? Or do we want to try and make Dryad Arbor better, if such a thing really exists..
Also Woodland Bellower does not really strike me as a useful card other then being an enabler for a one shot combo finish, which is something that happens but not reliably enough to warrent a slot. I imagine the card being dead a lot of the time, just as Sneak and Emrakul is when the other is not there. So my suggestion is to being more beef that is solid on its own, with Emrakul being the only exception to run outside of a possible grindy NicFit game.
Ok so, gonna step back to the idea of running 0 Decay. I actually think that in a junk list, running Qasali Pridemage we can pull it off. So why not in Jund? QPM can be some serious lock combined with Meren on (fringe) decks like MUD or Enchantress. Because it has a self sacrifice ability it can up and recur from Meren without any other card required. So couldn't Caustic Caterpillar be an interesting option to run and Cut Decay entirely? Freeing some space for say, a full set of PFire? What threat exists that we care about that cannot be reached by Caterpillar, Deed or PFire that SneakyNicFit cares about?
I never cared for Tracker in Sneakyfit. It is like bringing a checkers piece to a chessgame (Huntmaster or Stormbreath wouldnt be either).
And Yes, Blood Moon is sic as shit in this sideboard and meta, if you draw into it.
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Yes, we can. Thing is though that QPM on its own is much more bang for your buck than the Caterpillar. But that is some nice outside of the box thinking!
Hello everyone,
Quick tangent, I've been testing Vizear of the Menagerie in rhino fit. I thought it would be sweet with stronghold and library but it seems underwhelming as a 4 drop.
The synergy but it may not be enough. Just as a heads up in case anyone else was considering it. Has anyone found differently so far?
If you want a four mana card advantage engine, you're probably better off with Meren unless Deathrite is absolutely everywhere in your metagame.
@Kobra_D: I think that most Nic Fit lists run more lands than creatures so probably a Courser, being one mana cheaper and offering lifegain (and breaking out of mana problems, crucial for all versions), will be better. If you're playing 2-3 Coursers for some reason it could perhaps be interesting to play one Vizier of the Menagerie for testing - each one of them enables the other.
Usually, I don't spoil anything until I have something properly tested, but as you are asking; here you go:
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
1 STE
1 Ooze
2 Witness
1 Huntmaster
1 Thrun
1 Ishkanah
0/1 Beater
3 Liliana
0/1 Nissa VF
2 Sylvan Library
3 Deed
3 Punishing Fire
3 Pulse of Murasa
2-3 Beast Within/Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal
3 GSZ
2 Hymn
1 Toxic
1 Painful
So basically, you want to abuse Pulse of Murasa + Witness.
The rest is "Ice on the Cake" and pretty obvious.
You definitely can go 62 - 63 cards MD.
First testing phase is very promising:
- the deck can be a tad slow. I'm still trying to figure out a good beater (Primetime asks for Kessig + karakas + twin tower for example).
- Combo is not so bad (3 REB / 2 Faerie / 3 Lost Legacy / 1 Spellbomb / 1 Gaddock) SB included.
- Bad MU -> S&T and Big Eldrazi
Happy testing.
Regards,
Ralf
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
Defenitly an interesting card, it came across on more occasions. Worth a shot.
How has it been for you?
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Nissa, Vital Force has lost her place in Sneak Fit?
And what about Flip Nissa? Or both. I was Toying around with these walkers, but can not decide id they are worth a slot or just watering down the Power/Combo.
More that her natural prey isn't around anymore. NVF is insanely powerful, but slow and vulnerable to TNN (which seems to be roaring back as a card). She was exactly the card that we needed to deal with Miracles effectively, but with that deck gone, we need our slots for other concerns. I'm certain that she's still very powerful and will come back into the deck depending on the future metagame -- but right now, she's not really what we need.
Flip Nissa is a bit more interesting to me. With Decay starting to fall a bit out of the format, her viability definitely goes up. I'm debating trying her out in Sneak and seeing how she fares -- I've always been impressed with the card when paired with Sun Titan, but I haven't actually tried her in non-white lists.
Thanks a lot for your input! EW+murasa happened a couple times in my experience, and unless the opponent has Drs online that "combo" is backbreaking in the fair matchup. Maybe murasa is the card that can justify playing a grove mana base? The fact that it can recur groves seems nice on paper, definitely more relevant than getting back a random fetch land
Actually even with DRS on the field, pulse being an instant means you can at least play around once.
The list is still very rough and there is space for improvement but I think there is definitely something into it.
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Night's Whisper
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Sneak Attack
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
My latest iteration just to keep the thread up to date. Grave Titan has been awesome for me and leaves value behind if it gets plowed which is nice. 6-drops tend to be interchangeable against the BUG decks and Grave Titan presents by far the fastest clock when that matters (raced a Griselbrand with it last week!)
Sideboard still in flux. Trying more maindeck decays, not sure they're what we want but trying them. Sylvan similarly experimental. Sideboard in flux. Struggling hardcore against the local Miracles-turned UW Landstill-turned nu-miracles player, unsure what to do to work on that matchup. 4 Snapcaster 3-4 Counterspell 4 Force is really hard to resolve threats through. Anyone else had any experience there?
If you're talking about Jeff Whites list, you just gotta jam spells against him. By forcing him to trade 1 for 1 or 2 for 1, his brainstorms and jace storms lose a lot of impact. Thruns always a option and his mana base can be quite weak. 3 colors with mishras factory feels weak to moon (or Plow Under, then ewit and Plow Under again). I feel like thoughtseize is your best friend in this matchup, while a number of therapies and vets come out. A second DRS to get under standstill is also an option.
Last edited by Yutao; 05-23-2017 at 12:05 PM.
So... With Dryad Arbor overperforming and Meren underperforming for some, one might want to consider replacing Meren with the Vizier. GSZ for it when you have your Volrath's Stronghold on the field and enjoy the extra cards.
Or, with the appearance of Fatal Push, the Junk Fit crowd might be able to go back to the ways of yesteryear and run a Fierce Empath and Karador, Ghost Chieftain. DRS can't touch that. You cast a card, it's on the stack. Or, you know, cut a lot of beef and run Stronghold + Vizier + Meren + Empath -> Karador + Sun Titan and systematically grind people to a pulp.
@Arianrhod: Have you considered running something along the lines of Tasigur/Gurmag Angler? I imagine part of your problems come from missing combo pieces, causing you to not have pressure on the board (or a decent defense). W/ a single Angler in your 60 you suddenly have 4 GSZ + 2 Empath + 1 Angler = 7 cards that can easily turn into a 5/5 if you ever need it. I've played this for the last period of my Summoner's Egg days, and it really brought the deck to a whole new level. It gives you a secondary gameplan when your primary hasn't come together.
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