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Thread: [Primer] Nic Fit

  1. #3521

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I was reading the Czech pile thread and the sentiment currently is to switch to grixis. Sultai control is a thing, but some on that thread are saying red is more important.
    Grixis has already been a thing, there were even Pyromancer versions that weren't running DRS already. Even those versions were only managing 2 Kolaghan's Commands which is what Pile already had.

  2. #3522

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Hey... still about banning DRS, NicFit worked well without him, he was just, a nic(e) addition. Mana dork + gravehate options .
    Look into archives. We started without DRS and it worked well.
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...r-Deck-Nic-Fit ;) NO DRS (Yeah I know, he didn't existed in that "timeline"), but deck worked. I think we just loose coolest acceleration and better Scavenging Oooze. But we're just one step behind, while some decks are f@#$n far, far away ;)
    Now only reanimator scares me a bit but maybe SB reanimate can solve this? :)

    Abut previously mentioned by me discard, Toughtseize > IoK for us... mostly with JTMS and rarely other things. But it's only my opinnion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Exactly. You read my mind.
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  3. #3523

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by TURBODERP View Post
    Maindeck Leyline of the Voids I guess?

    Mind you, more graveyard hate is also ouch versus Nyx Fit since that just stops the Academy Rector trigger.
    I have been playing a bit of Nyx Fit--and it is a solid choice. I think it def gets better post DRS ban. (I was maindecking Ground Seal and lots of removal, mostly for DRS). The issue is the decks that get better are a little tough. RUG Delver is actually my biggest concern, due to the combination of mana denial, countermagic, and stifles. But I think overall Nyx Fit is in a better place. I actually think Nyx Fit is quite good against Reanimator. I pack 4x Leyline of the Void in the SB, which, in combination with everything else, usually secures games 2 and 3. And sometimes we can steal game 1 with some discard plus landing Splendor or Cruel Reality. Also, I have been playing 4c Nic Fit and running Probe--which sadly will go. Below I will propose an updated version of my 4c Nyx Fit list:

    Lands(22):
    4x Verdant Catacombs
    4x Windswept Heath
    2x Misty Rainforest
    2x Bayou
    1x Savannah
    1x Scrubland
    1x Tropical Island
    1x Underground Sea
    1x Island
    1x Plains
    1x Swamp
    3x Forest

    Creatures (7):
    4x Academy Rector
    3x Veteran Explorer

    Spells(31):
    1x Overwhelming Splendor
    1x Cruel Reality
    1x Curse of Death's Hold
    3x Evolutionary Leap
    1x Pernicious Deed
    1x Toxic Deluge
    2x Abrupt Decay
    2x Swords to Plowshares
    1x Lingering Souls
    4x Brainstorm
    3x Ponder
    1x Sylvan Library
    4x Cabal Therapy
    3x Living Wish
    1x Collective Brutality

    SB (15):
    4x Leyline of the Void
    1x Karakas
    1x Phyrexian Tower
    1x Tabernacle of Pendrel Vale (which I don't have in paper, I will run Eternal Witness in this slot unless I borrowed a Tabby from a friend)
    1x Bitterheart Witch
    1x Gaddock Teeg
    1x Reclamation Sage
    1x Ground Seal
    1x Curse of Misfortunes
    1x Dovescape
    1x Pernicious Deed
    1x Diabolic Edict

    Thoughts?

  4. #3524
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    The real question for the sideboard is which grave hate to include? With Drs I shaved down to only 3 in the board, but I don't think less than 4 is adequate for a while. Currently I'm on a 2/2 split of surgical/nihil spellbomb. Should we start looking at things like Relic or Cage?
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  5. #3525
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Here again crop rotation is the answer

    You put 1 bojuka bog and 1 scavenging ooze in your sideboard and with 2 crop 4 zenith your now playing with 8 gravehate effects without cluttering your sideboard.

    Personally, in helm fit, I'm not missing in the gravehate department (4 leyline main, bog and ooze side with 2 crop 2 zenith main).
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  6. #3526
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Crop rotation is instant, which is nice, but splashing in lands that mess with curve (tapped) when drawn, or don't fix colors is a liability. I could instead just play 2 nihil spellbomb and have the same odds of drawing a 1-mana grave hate that doesn't ruin my mana base. Instant speed surgical, even on the draw, is better in this instance.

    A 2nd scooze in the board does seem smart. I'm still wracking my brain for how to shift the open 3 slots in the main, which might include mainboarding some of the sideboard cards (rec sage mostly.)
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  7. #3527
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Does Courser of kruphix get better now?
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  8. #3528
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Mr safety, you're looking a it the wrong way : bojuka bog is not a cipt land, it is a one mana grave hate spell that leave a land behind, where nihil is a one mana gravehate spell that draw you a card (for one more mana).
    Also with 2 crop main and bog side board you have 3 grave hate for one sideboard slot, which is a better rate than 2 nihil for 2 slots .

    Crop is a way to multiply your effects without cluttering your maindeck.
    I first tried it, following the wise words of brael, to get more tower oppening without drawing multiple tower. But it does so much more (and I've already written about all that so I won't spam the board more )

    In summary I encourage you to give crop rotation a chance. You play utility lands, you do get wastelanded, you want more grave hate, try 2 crop main you won't go back.
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    I forgot that it could get tower. I'm used to crop rotation = marit lage (and occasionally something else.) Rotating into tower is indeed strong, but I worry about wasteland coming back in a big way. I'm not sure tower alone is worth maindeck crop rotation however. Seems like it waters down the deck simply for a little more flexibility. I don't mind using sideboard space for those kinds of tricks, but I have to figure out if my junk mana base can handle it.

    Thoughts from other junk fit players? Crop rot or not?
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  10. #3530
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Crop can 'sort of' counter wasteland in the sense that you stay at the same land number if you cast it in response to wasteland. And if they waste your tower after you sac'ed explorer, good for them

    Also, for one of your three vacant slots, you might consider hierarch, 5/6 rhino are nothing to laugh at.
    Quote Originally Posted by lorddotm View Post
    Magic would be a lot more interesting if more Punks played it.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Wow, you're right!

  11. #3531

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I forgot that it could get tower. I'm used to crop rotation = marit lage (and occasionally something else.) Rotating into tower is indeed strong, but I worry about wasteland coming back in a big way. I'm not sure tower alone is worth maindeck crop rotation however. Seems like it waters down the deck simply for a little more flexibility. I don't mind using sideboard space for those kinds of tricks, but I have to figure out if my junk mana base can handle it.

    Thoughts from other junk fit players? Crop rot or not?
    I like Crop Rotation in all Nic Fit builds, my general loadout is Volrath's Stronghold, Phyrexian Tower, Karakas, Bojuka Bog, and Dryad Arbor. With the expected rise in Stoneforge Mystic, Tower of the Magistrate might become sideboard material again.

    What really breaks Crop Rotation though, is that it's good with Tower. Tower provides one of our best starts, enabling 4 mana on turn 2 but we can't usually afford enough colorless land to make that happen which is where Crop Rotaiton comes in. Additionally, with the loss of DRS, Veteran Explorer becomes more important. Crop Rotation can function as sacrifice effects 5 and 6 in a deck, which really helps to accelerate you. Not just acceleration though, but like GSZ it's early acceleration and late game value, with Tireless Tracker on the battlefield it's even effectively a draw 2.

    I know that not everyone likes Crop Rotation, it's bad in Force of Will heavy metas inparticular but I think it's very valuable. I anticipate Crop Rotation for Bojuka Bog to rise sharply in value in the next few weeks.

    Edit: It's been a while since I've brought this up, so let me provide a small chart as to why Crop Rotation is so good. This deck relies heavily on developing it's mana, which means it has to ramp. If a hand doesn't provide 3 mana by turn 2, barring circumstances like having a silver bullet in hand it is almost certainly a mulligan. This is why I play so many ramp options. Prior to the DRS ban my usual mana package consisted of the following ways to hit the necessary mana:
    1. 4x GSZ + 1x Arbor + 22x other lands (need 2)
    2. 4x GSZ + 2x DRS + 8 fetch + 15 other lands
    3. 4x GSZ + 4x Vet + 7x sacrifice (4 therapy, 2 rotation, 1 tower) + 23x land

    When you put these together, you get the following percentages:
    1. 23.8%
    2. 33.4%
    3. 27.5%

    This means you've got about a 63.2% chance of your opening hand containing the necessary mana for your deck to play the game.

    If you exclude Crop Rotation that drops to 60%. If you exclude Crop Rotation and Arbor that drops to 31.7%. If you exclude Crop Rotation, Arbor, and manadorks that drops to 21.2%.

    In short, you need to go deep on mana acceleration in order to make the deck consistent. And the best mana acceleration has the DRS effect of being acceleration early and additional utility late, which is something that Crop Rotation does. On top of that, the most powerful cards historically are cards that act as both mana sources and mana sinks (again, DRS was the gold standard of this) and Crop Rotation is one such card.

    They are extremely valuable to include in your list.

  12. #3532
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Plm View Post
    Crop can 'sort of' counter wasteland in the sense that you stay at the same land number if you cast it in response to wasteland. And if they waste your tower after you sac'ed explorer, good for them

    Also, for one of your three vacant slots, you might consider hierarch, 5/6 rhino are nothing to laugh at.
    I already get 5/5 rhinos with Doran.

    I think having access to black mana is too important. I'll stick with birds and work in crops.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  13. #3533

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I already get 5/5 rhinos with Doran.

    I think having access to black mana is too important. I'll stick with birds and work in crops.
    5/6 is considerably different from 5/5. Recent rising all star Archon is a 5/6 and it's a large part in the cards success. The biggest, baddest thing around in most decks is Gurmag Angler at 5/5. Having something that beats it in combat rather than merely trades is very valuable. Don't underestimate the value of exalted.

    As far as black mana goes, I think there's a couple schools of thought on this. The first is that we usually don't play double black cards or need two black mana in a turn. As a result, we can usually just rely on the manabase to provide black mana. Where this strategy loses out is against a deck like D&T that can pretty effortlessly cut us off of black. But then, the issue to look at is, how much do you really need your black mana against a deck like that? And when you do, is it possible for you to leverage Veteran Explorer to get enough Swamps?

    When it comes to Hierarch, I've played Hierarch a bunch of times where the only effective colored mana it can produce for me is Green. That's still usually good enough, because if the Hierarch can tap for green, then the Bayou can tap for black.

    PS: Crop Rotation can color fix for you.

  14. #3534
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Cool. I don't have nobles, and I expect them to go up, but I have the crop rot + silver bullets. I'll still use the birds for now
    Great post, thanks.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  15. #3535

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Cool. I don't have nobles, and I expect them to go up, but I have the crop rot + silver bullets. I'll still use the birds for now
    Great post, thanks.
    Unless you're on a SFM build, I still don't like BoP... I would go with either Elves of Deep Shadow or Avacyn's Pilgrim because they provide a color you may not yet have access to but they're also 1/1's which means they can potentially attack and deal with something like a Goblin Lackey or hold back a Young Pyromancer. The exception to this being if you're expecting a lot of Marit Lage.

  16. #3536
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    I definitely have some number of depths players in my meta, or at least did...i get your point however.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  17. #3537
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    ...
    necessary mana:
    1. 4x GSZ + 1x Arbor + 22x other lands (need 2)
    2. 4x GSZ + 2x DRS + 8 fetch + 15 other lands
    3. 4x GSZ + 4x Vet + 7x sacrifice (4 therapy, 2 rotation, 1 tower) + 23x land

    When you put these together, you get the following percentages:
    1. 23.8%
    2. 33.4%
    3. 27.5%

    This means you've got about a 63.2% chance of your opening hand containing the necessary mana for your deck to play the game.

    If you exclude Crop Rotation that drops to 60%. If you exclude Crop Rotation and Arbor that drops to 31.7%. If you exclude Crop Rotation, Arbor, and manadorks that drops to 21.2%.
    ...
    Breal, do you play or have included in your calculation Sakura Tribe Elder. STE was the first card i have though after DRS ban.

  18. #3538
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    Breal, do you play or have included in your calculation Sakura Tribe Elder. STE was the first card i have though after DRS ban.
    STE doesn't enable having 3 mana available at the beginning of T2 so it's not part of those calculations.
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    STE doesn't enable having 3 mana available at the beginning of T2 so it's not part of those calculations.


    Agreed, I will have to try Crop Rotation i have a least one copy at home so i will try with this at the beginning.

    I know it is very early in the meta game, but it looks like Reanimator, Canadian threshold and Miracles are on the way to dominate the current metagame.

    What to you think of Deadeye Tracker as a replacement to DRS in the one mana slot, some sort of GY control , drawing engine, mana sink and possible threat in the longer game?

  20. #3540
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    What to you think of Deadeye Tracker as a replacement to DRS in the one mana slot, some sort of GY control , drawing engine, mana sink and possible threat in the longer game?
    A big, resounding "No".
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