[Primer] Nic Fit

[Tylert]

Sneak & Show comes in 2 flavors. OmniShow tends to go for Release the Ants if they know what they're doing so you're dead either way. Sneak & Show goes for the big creatures. You're probably still dead to Sneak Attack, but can survive Show and Tell.

My experience is that omnishow with release the ants doesn't exist anymore and that sneak & show has integrated omniscience completely now. But anyway, elspeth can win vs a resolved show and tell that puts an emrakul in play. Ok.

All-the-Rectors just becomes a clunky mess. Too many high cost cards and too many cards that do nothing once you have them in your hand. You want to run as few high mana cards as possible to deal with as much of the meta as possible.

Bant build with Brainstorm? :)

[Echelon]

My experience is that omnishow with release the ants doesn't exist anymore and that sneak & show has integrated omniscience completely now. But anyway, elspeth can win vs a resolved show and tell that puts an emrakul in play. Ok.



Bant build with Brainstorm? :)

Hey, it's already better than traditional Junk builds . Nyx Fit probably has a better time with that MU as Overwhelming Splendor shuts down Emrakul/Griselbrand completely.

As for Bant, at that point we're not talking Nic Fit anymore. Could be a thing, but isn't Nic Fit. 4C however would also be an option.

[Ralf]

You can play BANT Nic Fit (as stated in this thread at various occasion) but you'll need to play Perilous Research instead of Cabal Therapy.

1) As for the build, I recommend using Eldritch Evolution instead of POD.

2) I would also look into:
- Atraxa
- Tezzeret's Gambit

Proliferate is really nice (it also messes with Oppo's chalice and vial etc...)

3) One of the loop I was playing (a few months back) which explains why EE is better than Pod:

- Academy Rector -> EE -> grab recurring nightmare -> Yosei/Archon of justice (a friend with this http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13219&d=277499&f=LE)

So:

- Arena Rector -> EE -> grab PW of your choice -> Atraxa

4) Oath of Nissa is a card to consider if you go for heavy colored PW (which pairs up nicely with Perilous when seeing multiple oath)

5) BANT gives you Supreme Verdict and STP

6) And yes you get to play BS + PONDER + FOW

7) Ground Seal is also to be considered (food for Perilous / Protect your Rector from DRS / Messes with GY strategies)

My two cents.

Ralf

[kombatkiwi]

So... Pros and cons for both Rector variants.

Academy Rector/Nyx Fit

Pros:
- Completely shuts down strategies both during your own turn and your opponents
- Lockpieces can't be destroyed via combat

Cons:
- Doesn't necessarily answer an existing board presence
- Sometimes needs 2 lockpieces to completely shut down the opponent

Arena Rector/PlanesRector Fit

Pros:
- Immediately impacts an existing board presence
- Closes games out more quickly

Cons:
- Your opponent can still play Magic
- Is vulnerable during your opponents turn (or your end step)

Any other thoughts, anyone?

This seems like a very weird post to me:

"Sometimes needs 2 lockpieces to completely shut down the opponent" Isn't this true for most/all planeswalkers? You mention Gideon of the Trials being the answer to 'fast combo' but the only combo deck it totally stops afaik is ANT
I'm also skeptical that Elspeth is a strong answer to Sneak and Show, although it probably runs away with the game against most fair decks if left unchecked for like 2 turns

"Immediately impacts an existing board presence" Don't Overwhelming Splendor / Curse of Death's Hold do this?

"Closes games out more quickly" Faster than Sandwurm Convergence?

Rather than speak in generalities of 'planeswalker' vs 'enchantment' if you're going to use the 2 different rectors in basically identical shells then compare specific tutor targets you would play.
Like if you compare your package of Gideon / Ugin / Elspeth to Sandwurm / Splendor / Dovescape then what are the upside to the planeswalkers?
- Gideon / Elspeth are cheaper to hardcast than Splendor / Dovescape
- The planeswalkers are better cards to draw in a wider variety of matchups and are wincons by themselves whereas Dovescape / Splendor have more narrow effects and don't actually win you the game

Apart from this it's hard to make any argument that the planeswalkers are superior, and I don't think these arguments for the PWs are strong enough because the effects of the enchantments are so much more powerful:
- Fair decks outright lose to one or either of Sandwurm / Splendor
- Spell-based combo can't beat Dovescape
I can't see what makes the planeswalkers more appealing

[Ralf]

Apart from this it's hard to make any argument that the planeswalkers are superior, and I don't think these arguments for the PWs are strong enough because the effects of the enchantments are so much more powerful:
- Fair decks outright lose to one or either of Sandwurm / Splendor
- Spell-based combo can't beat Dovescape
I can't see what makes the planeswalkers more appealing

Or maybe you could play both of best world.

There is no reason not to play Academy and Arena altogether but a perfect mix has yet to be found.

There are powerful enchantments that can support PW for instance (Inexorable Tide, Doubling season, P.Deed, Recurring Nightmare) and I believe many loops could be found to ensure you lock out your opponent.

Nicol Bolas's ultimate the turn after it hits the table seems so tasty (+3 and a proliferate -> Ultimate the very next turn).

Speaking of which PW:
1) Bolas seems to be n°1 as a vaccum
2) Ugin is nice as a sweeper but the "exile" thing is really annoying
3) Nissa seems to be an auto include for her "witness" effect.
4) If you play Bolas, I wouldn't care about Karn (IMHO)

[Echelon]

This seems like a very weird post to me:

"Sometimes needs 2 lockpieces to completely shut down the opponent" Isn't this true for most/all planeswalkers? You mention Gideon of the Trials being the answer to 'fast combo' but the only combo deck it totally stops afaik is ANT
I'm also skeptical that Elspeth is a strong answer to Sneak and Show, although it probably runs away with the game against most fair decks if left unchecked for like 2 turns

They're mechanically very different. Just trying to find some sort of comparison. Also, Nyx probably has the leg up where the S&S MU is concerned. As for the 2 lockpieces bit, I doubt you need much after Ugin as far as the fair MUs are concerned. Nyx however at times needs both Splendor and Curse of Death's Hold to neutralize the threat.

"Immediately impacts an existing board presence" Don't Overwhelming Splendor / Curse of Death's Hold do this?

For Splendor, at times you're still facing a bunch of 1/1s, which can be problematic. For Curse of Death's Hold, you don't only face X/1s. So no, depending on what you're facing you might still be in a lot of trouble.

"Closes games out more quickly" Faster than Sandwurm Convergence?

Yeah, b/c Sandwurm Convergence isn't a card you necessarily want to run in the first place. Overwhelming Splendor pretty much does the same job and shuts off some additional stuff to boot.

Rather than speak in generalities of 'planeswalker' vs 'enchantment' if you're going to use the 2 different rectors in basically identical shells then compare specific tutor targets you would play.
Like if you compare your package of Gideon / Ugin / Elspeth to Sandwurm / Splendor / Dovescape then what are the upside to the planeswalkers?
- Gideon / Elspeth are cheaper to hardcast than Splendor / Dovescape
- The planeswalkers are better cards to draw in a wider variety of matchups and are wincons by themselves whereas Dovescape / Splendor have more narrow effects and don't actually win you the game

Apart from this it's hard to make any argument that the planeswalkers are superior, and I don't think these arguments for the PWs are strong enough because the effects of the enchantments are so much more powerful:
- Fair decks outright lose to one or either of Sandwurm / Splendor
- Spell-based combo can't beat Dovescape
I can't see what makes the planeswalkers more appealing

I'm not making the argument that planeswalkers are necessarily better than enchantments, I'm attempting to do some sort of comparison and see how it pans out. I do like your analysis here, it formulates it quite well.

As someone who's been on Nyx Fit for some time now the upside I can see is that planeswalkers can actually blow up a board that'd potentially still prove lethal when running enchantments. Is that worth the downsides? I don't know. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

[Claymore]

My thought with 8ball Rector is that you can build a deck that wants to get a Rector (either one) onto the field very quickly and capitalize on doing broken things with it, as soon as possible. It's not really in the realm of Interactive Fair Deck Nic Fit anymore. It's more "do broken dumb shit in Legacy" now, which I think can be way more powerful/hard to interact with than a traditional Nic Fit deck.

That's why I think you could look at including stuff like Eureka, which can drop your Rectors or the bombs into play. I think that people here are right in that you want to go blue for Brainstorm and the likes though, but I think going Explorer+Therapy is the right shell to get your 4 drop online fast as well as ramp into sweepers.

Eureka -> Rector + Phyrexian Tower -> Any walker/enchantment that can answer anything the opposing deck laid out, short of a Blood Moon + Rector exile trigger. Splendor, Dovescape, Elspeth, Ugin, Little Gideon...

I don't think Gamekeeper is viable since it is so variable, needing to mill down to a creature.

[Mr. Safety]

My thought with 8ball Rector is that you can build a deck that wants to get a Rector (either one) onto the field very quickly and capitalize on doing broken things with it, as soon as possible. It's not really in the realm of Interactive Fair Deck Nic Fit anymore. It's more "do broken dumb shit in Legacy" now, which I think can be way more powerful/hard to interact with than a traditional Nic Fit deck.

That's why I think you could look at including stuff like Eureka, which can drop your Rectors or the bombs into play. I think that people here are right in that you want to go blue for Brainstorm and the likes though, but I think going Explorer+Therapy is the right shell to get your 4 drop online fast as well as ramp into sweepers.

Eureka -> Rector + Phyrexian Tower -> Any walker/enchantment that can answer anything the opposing deck laid out, short of a Blood Moon + Rector exile trigger. Splendor, Dovescape, Elspeth, Ugin, Little Gideon...

I don't think Gamekeeper is viable since it is so variable, needing to mill down to a creature.

Very good post, it's definitely putting the deck further into a linear approach. I was questioning at that point whether it's really even necessary to play GSZ at that point because the toolbox is instead so focused on Rectors. Yes it gets Explorer, but you could just go 4x Vet/DRS and probably have enough consistent mana acceleration to get early Rectors. The GSZ toolbox is secondary at that point. I think I would probably swap out GSZ for Mirri's Guile (maybe not a full 4, but definitely 3, maybe the 4th slot as a Library.) If you're blasting with Ugin/Garruk/Karn/Gideon, why the hell do you even need Siege Rhino? Just food for thought. It may be better to just use Veteran naturally to ramp and include more traditional disruption like Thoughtseize, etc. It can definitely open up space to combat combo decks that traditionally give Nic Fit a hard time.

I think the closest comparison is Tinker. It doesn't win on the spot like Tinker/Key/Vault in Vintage, but it can be akin to Tinker/Blightsteel. Seriously undercosted threats that will overpower opponents and create inevitability.

[Ralf]

Resolving CMC 4 cards in Legacy without acceleration/lock/Permission pieces is a wet dream.

Playing 8 enablers (8Rekt) ala Sneak & Show might be sufficient (Academy Rector putting Omniscience in play is a thing...)
With a BANT/4C shell, there is definitely room for broken shit...

Eurêka seems to be too cute (and is a spell...) but I might be proven wrong here.

[Brael]

Bramble Sovereign is an interesting card. Looks very playable. I think I'm sliding it right into GB, but really any color combo should be playing this thing.

I beg to differ.

I've played successfully Abzan Nic Fit POD into several top 8.

- 3 POD is the better choice
- 3 veteran / 3 DRS or 4 veteran / 3 DRS or 2 Veteran / 4 DRS
- You play 21 lands (usually 1 utility if Karakas, none in BUG)
- You play a dryad arbor which push your number of creature in the deck between 22 and 24.

The best options are:
- BUG -> access to Strix + FOW + Brainstorm. But you have to sacrifice GSZ. Power level of creature is low. Games tend to be long.
- ABZAN -> access to SFM (BSK + Jitte are enough). Sigarda + Dromoka are real contender. BSK + Sigarda is gross...

1) Bug is the best against non fair decks & control
2) Abzan is the best against Tempo & Midrange

POD is a viable deck, certainly not the best in the current meta (or not) but don't underestimate its potential.

My two cents.

You're more optimistic on the deck than me. I think that in some metas you could play it, but I also think it's the sort of build that someone new to the deck should be discouraged from putting together, if cost is a concern. There's ways to fiddle with the numbers, for example drop a 1 drop and a 6 drop, and you need 23 creatures, go a little more inconsistent and drop a land, and the deck comes together at 61. I still think the deck breaks the #1 rule in the format though, which is that you either need to be able to ignore the opponent or interact with them. Pod can't ignore them, and it gives up too much interaction.

[kombatkiwi]

As someone who's been on Nyx Fit for some time now the upside I can see is that planeswalkers can actually blow up a board that'd potentially still prove lethal when running enchantments. Is that worth the downsides? I don't know. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

I agree with this, the quote unquote problem is that 'planeswalkers' here basically just means 'Ugin'

You can play 1 Ugin to have the 'big payoff' option and then you just play a couple more of the 5-6 drop planeswalkers that people have used in the past like Nissa Vital Force or 4BW Sorin etc because these are already decent options for a Nic Fit deck anyway. (Basically what you suggested already). But rather than have a build that is so focused on Rector triggers (like current builds with Academy Rector that play all 4 Rector with Evo Leap and stuff) maybe you just want 2-3 Arena Rector in a more typical version of Nic Fit. Can Arena Rector just be a 'good 4-drop' akin to something like Siege Rhino?

If you really want to focus on getting as many Rector triggers as possible (using Evo Leap / Lingering Souls etc) I think that the Enchantments provide a bigger benefit for doing this

The ideas people are suggesting using both rectors seem ridiculous, I can't ever imagine that succeeding

[Echelon]

Yeah, I'm just ignoring "play all the Rectors". That just bogs you down way too much and leaves you with too many dead cards when drawn. It's just silly hype talk.

You may very well be right that PW Rector works better in a less dedicated shell, that's the next thing I'm testing after the dedicated Rector list. Very much looking forward to it. I'd probably use Arianrhod's list as a starting point for that and adapt it from there. The list'll definitely want 7 basics so your odds of being able to hardcast Ugin if necessary improve. I'd probably slot in a Nissa, Vastwood Seer in that list, as it develops your manabase and pulls you ahead. I've been wanting to play that card for quite some time now.

Edit: A fair Junk Rector list would probably look something like this:

Main (61)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Arena Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg

So basically a functional Junk list w/ a massive payoff card.

[kombatkiwi]

Yeah something like that, but 3 rector / 1 PW seems like the wrong ratio
I think I would at least want 1 more PW, the obvious cut is Meren / Rhino / Sigarda but maybe even 1 Guile can go
Guile/Library also become worse in this build because Ugin eats them (although I guess every NicFit build plays Deed and if you have Ugin in play then maybe you don't care)

[Matsu]

I agree with this, the quote unquote problem is that 'planeswalkers' here basically just means 'Ugin'

You can play 1 Ugin to have the 'big payoff' option and then you just play a couple more of the 5-6 drop planeswalkers that people have used in the past like Nissa Vital Force or 4BW Sorin etc because these are already decent options for a Nic Fit deck anyway. (Basically what you suggested already). But rather than have a build that is so focused on Rector triggers (like current builds with Academy Rector that play all 4 Rector with Evo Leap and stuff) maybe you just want 2-3 Arena Rector in a more typical version of Nic Fit. Can Arena Rector just be a 'good 4-drop' akin to something like Siege Rhino?

If you really want to focus on getting as many Rector triggers as possible (using Evo Leap / Lingering Souls etc) I think that the Enchantments provide a bigger benefit for doing this

The ideas people are suggesting using both rectors seem ridiculous, I can't ever imagine that succeeding

^I 100% agree with that.
At the beginning i have proposed a build with 3 Arena Rectors and 3 PW (ugin, bolas God, Garruk apex).
I definitely think you can easily shrink the build to 2 Arena Rectors if you play smaller PW.

I think the main goal of the Arena deck will be to Out Grind you opponent faster then the current version of NicFit.
Like you have suggested one or two big PW (Ugin, Bolas God, Karn Liberated) followed by a decent creature or PW will eat for breakfast most of the creature based decks.

Combo always was a problem, but now you can have a much easier access to Gideon of the trial and Karn/Bolas exile cards from hand might facilitate the process.

Edit: Old list

I will try something like this:

8 Fetchlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Siege Rhino
3 Arena Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Sylvan Library
1 Pernicious Deed

1 Garruk, Apex Predator -> Nissa, Vital force
1 Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

[Echelon]

When you're in white Gaddock Teeg probably is a safer bet than Gideon. Speed & GSZ are still a thing

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah something like that, but 3 rector / 1 PW seems like the wrong ratio
I think I would at least want 1 more PW, the obvious cut is Meren / Rhino / Sigarda but maybe even 1 Guile can go
Guile/Library also become worse in this build because Ugin eats them (although I guess every NicFit build plays Deed and if you have Ugin in play then maybe you don't care)

I agree. I think once you're committed to cheating PW's then I think you need to focus on it. Some number of Guile/Library can go because Arena Rector becomes your manipulation (tutor instead of filtering.) I think at a minimum you want 3x PW's and 4x Rector for consistency. Jamming enchantments into the same deck feels way to ambitious. Again, I think GSZ becomes a much smaller focus when you're cheating in PW's.

I mean, we could do GSZ + Kotr + Stage/Depths + Siege Rhino + Academy Rector + enchantments + Arena Rector + Pws + Stoneforge Mystic + Equips...at a certain point it needs to focus in and do one thing, and do it well, rather than a million things poorly. EDH this is not.

Nyx fit is already established, I don't think Arena Rector belongs there. I think there is potential for a Arena Rector PW build, but it needs to concede slots to accommodate it. Or there is the typical creature value-based plan that Nic Fit started at.

[Matsu]

When you're in white Gaddock Teeg probably is a safer bet than Gideon. Speed & GSZ are still a thing

Good point.

I am interested in the new Archon against any build. He looks spicy

[Ralf]

For those interested in a BANT build, I'll start from the following and start tweaking:

1 Forest
2 Plains
3 Island
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Arena Rector

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Perilous Research

4 Ponder
2 Living Wish

3 Ground Seal
2 Evolutionary Leap

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

2 Supreme Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Negate
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Eternal Witness
SB: 2 Blessed Alliance
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Thragtusk
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage

The SB is just a pile but you should get an idea

Regards

[Mr. Safety]

Good point.

I am interested in the new Archon against any build. He looks spicy

I saw that too...too bad it costs 6. Not unreasonable, but more difficult considering the main path to playing it will be GSZ.

For reference:

All your removals are instants?

[kombatkiwi]

I agree. I think once you're committed to cheating PW's then I think you need to focus on it. Some number of Guile/Library can go because Arena Rector becomes your manipulation (tutor instead of filtering.) I think at a minimum you want 3x PW's and 4x Rector for consistency.

The point I was trying to make was that I don't think 3 Tutor 1 Tutor-Target is good because your Tutors are going to be dead too much of the time
I don't think it's necessary to play all 4 rectors, but with 3-Rector-1-PW too often you will take all the PW out of your deck when you still have Rectors left