Perhaps. I'm already locked in on my current league so I can't try it out for awhile (beyond maybe a few test games on xmage). It is on my to do list though, which means I'll try to get to it sometime in the next 6 months. If the Dark Depths plan doesn't work, I think the pure value plan might. Between Tracker, Courser, and Gitrog, I think Scapeshift could function as a way to build the Two Towers combo while simultaneously assembling a whole bunch of value. I guess the question is, where would we want that type of value? I think I've already answered the "Why not just Valakut instead?" question, in that Valakut doesn't have as solid a manabase, and has to devote a whole bunch of slots to the combo where as this is just incidental value that goes with everything you're already playing.Originally Posted by Navsi
If your goal is to grind out value with Scapeshift, also take Lotus Cobra into consideration. A card that doesn't fit too badly into the general game plan and that lets you cast a follow-up to that otherwise very unsatisfying play.
Also there are lands that are better in multiples - e.g. 4 Cloudpost threatening a hardcast Emrakul or another Eldrazi?
Which brings me to GB<>. Already playing lots of <> lands (Phyrexian Tower, Thespian's Stage, Volrath's Stronghold, Cloudpost, Glimmerpost) this deck could make use of some of the fierce Overlords easily and with Scapeshift having a valid way to ramp into early Kozilek, the Great Distortion or Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger.
Don't forget Thought Knot Seer!
Adding colorless brings you back to a fragile manabase, and tips you back into Valakut territory. There's much better ways to assemble ramp with colorless, such as MUD.
I've considered Lotus Cobra, but I'm not yet convinced it's what I'm looking for. Tracker, Titania, and Gitrog are great with Scapeshift from a value standpoint. Courser is ok just as incidental value. In doing some card searches, Knight of the Reliquary probably plays well into this strategy too if I go into a third color.
Last edited by Brael; 03-20-2017 at 10:47 PM.
So for shardless I usually board
-4 Cabal
-1 Vet
+1 Elspeth
+1 Truths
+1 To the Slgaughter
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Qasali
I would bring in Qasali before golari in this matchup every time as for sweepers you have better options and Qasali turns sidewise and can sometimes snipe something important like a strix and I think its better than the 4th vet because you dont want to be top decking vets and you will usually get 1-2 out of your deck earlier in the game.
For burn I would go
-2 Nissa
+1 Golgari
+1 Qasali
Be careful with your vets in this matchup because if you pop a vet and dont do something to gainlife/disrupt them you will just die most of the time. But on the other hand gaining 3 life can just be enough to win the match and 2 rhinos total will usually win the game on its own.
Hey guys mainly a Maverick player but I also have junk fit built and that has been a lot of fun. However Sneak Fit has really caught my eye. I'm probably going to get the punishing fire package just to have it as an option but I wanted to hear from the Sneak fit players.
In a very general sense what would you say are the Pros and Cons to punishing fire?
I know I will probably just need to test it out and see for myself but forums like these are always good to gain greater insight.
Thanks guys
Sorry if this seems random, but I'm looking for some ideas toward this build of 4c Nic Fit. It is built to survive with out Explorer triggering with the 'Shardless' Engine. But the problem is that I'm kinda stuck with running Chord as a tutor effect, I would like to run Transverse instead but I'm running into an issue of having usually 3 out of the 4 types in the yard when I would like to cast Transverse. Foundry combo has been a great mana sink let alone good just to generate card advantage. Other than that I'd would enjoy any ideas given. Thanks
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Baleful Strix
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Shardless Agent
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder
2 Sword of the Meek
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Shriekmaw
1 Ancestral Vision
3 Chord of Calling
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Verdurous Gearhulk
4 Veteran Explorer
5 Forest
2 Island
2 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstainded Mire
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground River
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volcanic Island
1 Wooded Foothills
Mythic Rogue Deck Builder
Team Freshly Baked Crayons
Team Albany
Eidolon of Blossoms got cut from Nyx? Huh. Surprised.
Recruiter could be pretty fun w/ a Meren loop. Very grindy though, and no way to tutor for it.
Pros: Recurring removal, secondary win-condition. Cons: Slow, has a hard time dealing w/ bigger creatures.
I never found it to be that good. Its impact on the board is pretty minimal, and the deck is awkward enough with dead topdecks already that a four mana 2/2 just doesn't do enough.
Zenithing for it is pretty underwhelming. Defensively we'd rather have Nyx Weaver or Chromanticore, and to pressure the opponent we'd rather have Chromanticore since he actually attacks well. Zenithing for a CA engine isn't something I needed to do much, but Witness and Weaver both do the job anyway to varying degrees.
Rector has better targets.
Starfield has better targets.
Sterling Grove has better targets.
If your opponent has a board position, you usually want something that sweeps them or otherwise stabilizes you.
If your opponent doesn't have a board position, you want something that applies more pressure than a cantripping 2/2.
If you just want to get ahead on card advantage we already have tons of ways of doing that which have relevance in other situations also.
It's probably at its best against Miracles, which is the place you might want to Zenith for a longterm card advantage engine most frequently, but frankly we have plenty of ridiculous haymakers in that matchup anyway so I don't think it's worth it when it's pretty underwhelming everywhere else.
I still like the guy. Was insane every time I got him on board.
I'll add to this.Pros: Recurring removal, secondary win-condition. Cons: Slow, has a hard time dealing w/ bigger creatures.Hey guys mainly a Maverick player but I also have junk fit built and that has been a lot of fun. However Sneak Fit has really caught my eye. I'm probably going to get the punishing fire package just to have it as an option but I wanted to hear from the Sneak fit players.
In a very general sense what would you say are the Pros and Cons to punishing fire?
I know I will probably just need to test it out and see for myself but forums like these are always good to gain greater insight.
Keep in mind the discussion is really only about Grove + Punishing Fire vs Bolt. Without Grove, your PFire is worse than Lightning Strike. Yes, sometimes you'll later topdeck the Grove, but you will have games where you don't have one. Or vice versa don't see the requisite PFires.
My dislike of PFire revolves around that, and also the fact that I don't believe Sneak Fit needs extra grind. There are a ton of ways to get a 6-drop to your hand and then cast it, instead of durdling around with PFire over and over. Or getting Sneak out and ending the game. Or grinding with Meren/Tracker. IMO your single target removal in nic fit needs to be fast and efficient, because eventually you'll wipe with Deed and then pull ahead with bigger threats.
PFire really only shines in my opinion against Elves and D&T. If you can assemble Grove + PFire early then it can simply win you the game and that is enough of a reward to warrant it. Against Delver they are likely to Waste your Groves, the first PFire is easily Dazeable, although outside of those points it is nice against them. With exception of Leovold.
Running Bolts allows for a smoother manabase. Bolt can kill things extremely early, such as killing your opponent's on-the-play DRS before they get a chance to use it. Easier to get through Daze and play multiple things a turn. Kills Jace if the opponent Brainstorms first (which they often do). I'll say that Counterbalance + Top isn't a consideration because it can lock out PFire about as easily as Bolt. Instead of wasting perhaps an entire turn to kill Jace, you can do it for a spare R. Also, Bolt takes care of Leovold much much better than PFires.
Regardless, I still enjoy 3 Decay 2 Bolts, so in the end the 2 slots of removal isn't the biggest deal in the world. I'd rather have more Decay regardless :)
As a Grove/Fire apologist for the Sneak version, I'll add that it gives you a lot of game against Miracles (and planeswalkers in general, which is something that Nic Fit in general struggles to deal with effectively). It does make your Delver matchup slightly more awkward, as Bolt would be better there (for the reasons Square already noted), but PFire isn't exactly bad there -- it still shoots down what you need it to, just a bit slower.
I guess my stance on PFire in Sneak can best be summed up in that I believe it leads to the most well-rounded version of Sneak. Bolts (or Pushes, if you're so inclined) lead to slightly different strengths, but I find those strengths to come at too much of a cost, personally.
What's your turn 1/2/3 strategy in games 2/3 for these match-ups (as I'm assuming game 1 is an auto-loss versus combo)?
1) Elves
2) fast Delver.dec
3) Combo (S&S, Storm, Reanimator)
4) Marit.dec (1x Humility?)
* Is it simply a case of mulligan aggressively to find the relevant Leyline or Aegis?
* Why not Chains over Spirit of the Labyrinth?
* Is Nether Void too slow?
* Is the 1 random Cavern worth it?
Many thanks in advance.
-
----
"What if they're already dead, Sergeant?"
"Then kill 'em again, you numpty. Kill them dead. Don't kill them alive."
Third pass with Scapeshift. After thinking about it a bit, I'm going to have to reluctantly agree with the points about using it as a combo enabler. But, I've had decent luck with DD+Rotation as a SB plan so I think I still want that. Instead, I'm just going to look at Scapeshift as a value generator.
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
Creatures 15
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
Planeswalker 2
2 Nissa, Vital Force
Spells 17
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Scapeshift
Artifact 2
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed
It still doesn't seem perfect, but I think this is a better route to go, where Scapeshift can simply assemble the Two Towers and draw a whole bunch of cards.
The mana curve looks something like this, which is about reasonable. Probably too many 3's and too few 2's.
1 14
2 9
3 8
4 6
5 3
Game 1 isn't an auto loss, no, probably more like 40% against most fast combo decks.
Elves:
Therapy names Natural Order. Collective Brutality is also great here. Ramping into any of Rector/Doomwake, Deed, or Parallax Wave closes the game out, any of which can happen on turn 3 or 4. Spirit of the Labyrinth is good to have in play, but Recruiter should be finding Rector because Doomwake ends the game. Sideboard out Weaver, Chromanticore and Aegis for Humility, Curse, Spirit of the Labyrinth and slam a haymaker enchantment ASAP after discard spells to slow them down.
Delver:
Therapy countermagic or Stifle, which is their only way of getting past Explorer with Goyf. If you've seen their hand, make Rector and trigger it asap - a lot of Delver decks (particularly Grixis) won't have untapped green sources to deathrite your Rector. Chromanticore is often completely unanswerable for them. Nyx Weaver is a pretty good Zenith choice if you can't reasonably get to Zentih@5. Getting an explorer trigger is important here, but we have a lot of sacrifice outlets. Sideboard out expensive stuff like Nissas for City of Solitude (stops Stifle), Courser of Kruphix and probably Spirit of the Labyrinth. Sanctity comes in against UR Delver, Curse against Pyromancer. Humility normally isn't necessary - we have better targets for Rector triggers in Chromanticore and Parallax Wave.
Sneak&Show:
Therapy/Collective Brutality Sneak Attack, or S&T if you don't have any Rectors etc in hand. Rector putting Parallax Wave into play shuts down their creatures pretty effectively. If they let your Rector trigger resolve before using Griselbrand to draw, Faith's Fetters is good. Wave is plan A though. Try keeping a Tower untapped to sac Rectors off S&T. Sideboard out Deeds and Aegis for Humility, SotL, usually Carpet of Flowers just because it ramps you into Rectors and is better than nothing.
Storm:
Try and slow them down with discard. I therapy LED since their fastest lines all involve it. Aegis of the Gods and Spirit of the Labyrinth are both amazing here - a lot of Storm decks have zero maindeck outs to Aegis, so finding one (with Recruiter or Rector) should be your first plan. Spirit is good for keeping them pinned down early on. It's not great though. Sideboard out Deeds, PWave, Starfield, Fetters, and either Weaver or Chromanticore for all the leylines and SotL. Mulll to six if no Leylines, but beyond that early discard + disruption creature is just fine. Sterling Grove makes SotL and Leylines immune to removal which is usually pretty strong.
Reanimator:
Therapy Entomb usually. This is basically halfway between Storm and SnS - SotL is good again. Parallax Wave is primary plan. Sideboard plan is the same as Sneak and Show + add Leyline of the Void and take out more expensive stuff like Nissa and Starfield.
Marit Lage:
Therapy Crop Rotation. Parallax Wave is once again the best card in the deck - even if they have Not of this World it doesn't care. Get it into play by whatever means necessary then beat them to death. If you can resolve a Starfield the game ends, since you get to dodge all their mana denial and recur a blocker for marit lage every turn. Sterling Grove protects from Krosan Grips etc. Sideboard out Deed, Aegis and SotL, replacing with Leyline of the Void, Humility and City of Solitude (since City means they have to Lage in their turn then pass, and can't Port you).
* Mulliganing for Leyline is good sometimes, but discard spell into early Rector trigger is usually good enough. I wouldn't mulligan lower than six looking for leyline if my six had ramp + rector + discard.
* Spirit of the Labyrinth can kill people. Pretty much every non-Miracles deck SOTL is good against runs Decay as its primary removal anyway, so it's not any less durable, and providing a clock is extremely useful to stop people just naturally drawing into the kill six turns down the line. SotL is also easier to cast since we can make it off Cavern if necessary. It's also still a body against decks that don't draw loads, like Loam decks and D&T. It's not great there but it's better than Chains which is completely blank.
* Nether Void is fine. It's moderately good in a lot of matchups (obviously wrecks spell based combo) and I could see it being good as a catchall for combo in a deck with fewer silver bullet slots. Originally I had it as a Rector target which is a) castable, b) not dead in other matchups so it can be in the maindeck and c) stops Storm, but since the current build has Rector, Aegis of the Gods does the same thing while being cheaper. Aegis would be the slot NVoid takes up. Also has synergy with Cavern and Abrupt Decay.
* Cavern is nice because you have quite a lot of Humans. If it gets cut it becomes a Savannah. Makes the Miracles matchup better, and there's a lot of it in my area. Uncounterable rectors and recruiters help against BUG too. If there's a lot of mana denial in your area, cut it - it's not essential or anything, just a meta call between Cavern and the second Savannah.
I really don't get why you would run Scapeshift in a B/G deck without first running 4 Crop Rotations...
Anyway, I shared this list last June, but no attention was given, I thought I'd revitalize the discussion.
Tireless Tracker is amazing btw.
There is no reason to cast Scapeshift and not win immediately. Keep this in mind...
// 60 Maindeck
// 3 Artifact
3 Sensei's Divining Top
// 14 Creature
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
// 3 Enchantment
3 Pernicious Deed
// 2 Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
// 24 Land
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Stomping Ground
1 Volrath's Stronghold
// 14 Sorcery
2 Scapeshift
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
// 10 Sorcery
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 From the Ashes
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
That's a Scapeshift list. Trackers are good but I don't think there's anything here that's particularly different to the standard one, right?
- I don't think Teeg in the sideboard is worth it. Zenithing him against combo decks is ok I guess, but I'd rather just have more discard.
- Speaking of which, I'd recommend giving Kolaghan's Command or Collective Brutality (or both) a shot. They make your combo matchups slightly less awful.
- Is Thrun really necessary? He's only good against Miracles which is already one of your better matchups, and he's only durable there if you get two towers.
- To The Slaughter is pretty good at killing Jaces and Marit Lages, which you have no answers to other than 'combo and kill you'. In particular I'm pretty sure Lands just has a bye against you since your clock isn't fast enough (esp into wasteland) and you don't have any way of meaningfully interacting with them. 2 Needles and 2 Surgicals probably isn't enough.
- I would rather have 11 mountains than 10, which always feels a bit on the low side. I don't think Tower/Stronghold does much here, without primeval titan to find them.
I've been going back and forth on that Crop Rotation question. The main argument is to provide a whole bunch of value at once. Crop Rotation is a high impact spell, but lately I've been finding that it's best use which is to power out an early Tower is a little too vulnerable to FoW. It could just be because my local meta is pretty stupid right now, but I'm finding it to backfire a little bit too much.
I'm liking Crop Rotation for certain things, and I don't want to fully cut it from the list but for other things it's poor. For example, Crop Rotation is great to fight against Dredge by getting Bojuka Bog but it's poorly positioned to fight against Miracles to get a Cavern of Souls. So in the absence of a convincing reason to go otherwise, I would rather just split the difference and have access to both.
For your last point, my main argument is that it comes down to matchups. Scapeshift has certain matches where it's good, but it also carries a lot of baggage with it which makes other matches worse. If you're not tying yourself to needing 10 slots that accelerate land drops, and a whole bunch of mountains, you gain a better manabase and slots for disruption. As I said, I could be wrong... I'll know more after I get some real testing in but I think it has some potential as just a value card. It certainly wouldn't be the first time this deck has adopted a combo card and simply used it for value... SDT and Therapy are two examples that spring to mind.
No one ever blinks at playing Primeval Titan to set up a 2 card combo, and that's 2 mana more for a weaker effect. Scapeshift can set up even more, for less mana.
I disagree that Primeval is a weaker effect: it brings two new lands while Scapeshift just replaces them. Plus it's a 6/6 trampler that must be answered, and Zenitheable. Yet I was going to say that if you are playing Scapeshift for value you should play 4 trackers so we agree in that. It's the way to test if it is worth it as a value card, yet theorycrafting I still judge it's too big mana investment for slow impact; I'd rather play a creature/pw or a form of interaction.
Regarding crop rotation, I ran it with intuition and DD combo as a 4-of and frequently got the impression that it took too much gas from the deck. As a disruption tool it's supreme against unfair decks but it hurt fair matchups too much in my testing.
Care to share your most updated list?
As a bit of a tangent:
Nic Fit players need to be consistent on cabal therapy, it's part of the "nice fit" after all, but that isn't the only spell we can find in our 75 that relies on knowing thy enemy. Sure, this will be deck dependent but if we were to resolve a slaughter games/lost legacy type of effect, what would you name for different match ups?
Combo match ups might be a little easier to reason out:
ANT- Tendrils, unless they board in goblins (and they might but I've seen players not do this against me), it's their only win-con. Scoop to inevitability.
TES- Burning Wish, there is probably at least 1 empty the warrens main, but burning wish cuts off a lot of the game plan.
Reanimator- Exhume (or just a fatty that's hard to deal with like tidespout/grave titan but I'm sticking with exhume), reanimate hurts, and animate dead dies to pridemage/abrupt decay giving us more game against it (and a reanimator pilot will probably cut these first for more disruption).
Then things get weird with fairer decks:
Delver decks can be all over the place, maybe brainstorm because that will hit. Leovold if you've seen him is probably a nice target.
D&T?- Mom? SFM? This deck frustrates me no matter what I'm playing *Kanye Shrug*.
Burn- Probably not casting this, although fireblast might be a nice thing to not worry about.
Eldrazi- Might be right to name Reality Smasher. I can usually find myself dealing with TKS, but the 5/5 trample make the team 5/5 is hard to cope with.
Anyways, if anyone has input on various match ups I would appreciate entertaining the thought.
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