Thanks! That's why I was looking to Liliana, which is definitely card advantage. I would probably include a Painful Truths in my deck before Dark Confidant. Hitting the 4-5 mana plays with Confidant seems pretty bad, it seems like life total is a major resource for this deck (to get Deed online) and then Deed kills him anyways. If I get 3 triggers that would be amazing, but I could get that from Truths. Are there any 2-drop green creatures that would be comparable to Dark Confidant in card advantage? I would think it would already be in there.
Another option for not getting tight on mana is Sakura-Tribe Elder. What's your take on that?
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Dark Confidant demands a very dedicated build, it's not really something you just slot in. It's a lot of fun to play but a bit less robust than traditional lists.
I know several people are very positive about STE. Most notably Arianrhod and I believe volrathxp as wel. It's probably best in a list that runs 7 basics (in which case you could also definitely add a Nissa, Vastwood Seer in your 3-drop roster) and has a (preferably GSZ-able) 6-mana drop at the top of its curve.
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
You can try Starved Rusalka - zenitable
And iam running Merciless Executioner
So you plan to get your Explorer trigger around turn 4 or so..?
That is not the only reason why is executioner in the deck... but yea sometimes i use him this way.So you plan to get your Explorer trigger around turn 4 or so..?
That means you've spent 2 turns and 6 mana just to get an Explorer trigger...
Its 3cmc creature which can help you sacrifice Vet and this is not it's main purpose but welcomed side effect.
It's very, very sub par. The going rate for its effect is a single mana, not 3. It's also not something you want your 3-mana creatures to do - you want those to pull you ahead, not keep you on par.
Cabal therapy is more optimal better way how to sac veteran, true... But you have only 4 copies and as Mr. Safty wrote, its not enough and Vet just sadly sit on the board and you are stucked with 3 mana on board and 5cmc card in hand (never happened to you?).
Plus Executioner can kill enemy creature and left 3/1 body. Can be cycled with Meren. Can carry equipments or jump to Pod to became Rhino.
For me, he works fine.
As @Ulysses95, @Naragon, and @Echelon pointed out, there are plenty of ways to clean up the board, but having every board wipe sit at the 3cmc non-creature spot of our curve is a bit demanding. Not saying that you can't get by or just lose to sanctum prelate (I'm still willing to wager that the D&T MU is pretty good) but it's something to be aware of.
On Diabolic Intent, I have included it in builds like Pod or BUG as they come with higher creature counts, but drawing an intent on an open board feels like a terrible top deck. Painful Truth is great card draw, in blue the one time I sleeved up [CARD]perilous research[/CARDS] it out performed my expectations, but they were pretty low to begin with. It's also not brainstorm so there is that, card draw in blue is less necessary.
For Ob. Shift the night went 1-2. All the games were grindy, and involved a lot of decisions, but the curve felt too high and was even more demanding than usual. I have often found that on each turn with nic fit I can spend all my mana. This deck always felt like it wanted 1 more mana
R1 (0-0)- Pox:
Game 1 We strip each others hands away while getting something like 5 vet. triggers in total. Loam found haven and haven found Ugin, which is really good. I also had treetop villages early to help pressure his planeswalkers from getting out of control.
Game 2 Again, in an attrition match up, we lose all of our resources. Mastermind's Acquisition wished for a tireless tracker after the opponent saw my creature light deck game 1. Tracker pressured the board allowing for card draw to eventually get Nissa, Vital Force and Ob Nixilis, reignited to close out the game.
[2-0]
R2 (1-0)- Punishing Pile:
Game 1 Main deck pithing needle locks up DRS denying my opponent a lot of value, but 1 too many forces check my resources and I lose to squire beats with an opp. at 3 with a tree top village.
Game 2 I miss my second and third land drop, but strip my opponents hand of resources. Finding lands quickly ramps into an Ugin off the back of 3 vet triggers and Ugin closes the game.
Game 3 Early force and spell pierces allow my opponent to either stop my turn, or punishing fire me. It's a slow crawl down to the bottom.
[2-1]
R3 (1-1)- Goblins:
Game 1 Trading 1 for 1 as before leaves both of us resource light. My opponent taking tree top beats, and I get attacked by top deck hasty threats, ultimately I lose to a tar fire.
Game 2 A ringleader hitting 4 threats on turn 2 thanks to chrome mox, gets a team to attack for 18 on turn 3 (I think). It might have been later at the game in the top deck portion of the match, but an 18 out of no where closed the game out quickly.
[0-2]
Final result (1-2). I never got to scapeshift with Ob on the field. While it is possible, and would be fun I'm sure, an A/B combo that requires 9 mana and no spot removal out of the opponent, and somewhere between 5-7 lands on the battlefield and in the deck, is the definition of clunky. GB rock felt nice, and it did inspire me to push further into the planeswalker side of things, but Ob Shift appeared to be strictly worse than valakut (I only say appear hear as technically we would need more data to support the claim, but we can all be keeping this in the tertiary category).
If you are so intent on creature-based card advantage, wouldn't Shriekmaw or Fleshbag Marauder be better? I mean, Marauder seems nutty in particular matchups with an Explorer to sacrifice. All of them are terrible in contrast with To the Slaughter or Diabolic Edict though.
I'll stick with Liliana, the Last Hope. If I don't have targets for her first ability on my opponent's side, targeting Explorer and ticking her up seems just fine. Her second is valuable with around 18-20 creatures, and her third ability grinds really nicely. Also, I will probably find a way to cram in a Painful Truths.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
@ sac outlet : Brael is lost in discord so I will say it for him "crop rotation is your lord and savior"
That's true! It's a sac outlet that is permanent, fight wasteland on dual, bounce annoying stuff, protect from edict, exile a graveyard, get your recursion, makes coffee.
The one lesson I learned from SE fit is that to check all of your requirements, your cards must be multi purpose.
I've played Truths forever and I really, really like it as a 1-2 of, with 2+ Sylvans as well. Even just jamming truths on T2 off DRS to fill back up is great.
At least a good chunk of them should be
I always enjoy confirmation that I'm not completely out of my mind.Last week I ran an experimental build w/ 4 Dark Confidants and 4 Trackers (based off of Brael's work). It was crazy absurd. Drawing cards is a very, very good thing to be doing.
Also, post the list you played.
Last edited by Brael; 05-19-2018 at 07:01 PM.
The problem with Painful Truths is that it puts you ahead by two cards, but costs you three life, costs you a larger portion of a turn, and doesn't actually impact the board. Dark Confidant, with a proper curve doesn't actually cost very much life. My current build has 72 pips in it, and I try to stay at 75 or fewer. That's an average of 1.25 life/card. Thus, in order to profit the two cards that you gain off of Painful Truths (as the first is just a replacement, something that's not true for Bob) you only pay 2.5 life compared to the 3 that Truth's costs. Also, Truths requires three colors while the best build in my opinion is pure BG. Green has no creatures that are comparable to Bob, all creature based CA is 3 mana or more and that just doesn't work because it's not only important to keep your build low for Bob, which is really just a side effect of good deck construction, but it's important to keep your curve low because your deck needs to function when you're not ramping as much as you would like. The most comparable cards to Bob in my opinion in green are Scryb Ranger and Sakura Tribe-Elder.
As for the Deed point, Bob builds rely less on Deed.
Here is my current BG build. You can get an idea of a skeleton from it.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rock-fit-2/
I like going +1 basic for Nissa, and +1 for STE. So 6 basics normally, 7 for one of those, 8 for both.
Innocent Blood is the same effect at 1 mana. Paying 3 mana to make both people sacrifice is too far above the curve to work well. For a one sided edict it's Diabolic at 2 mana. If you want that effect, I would look for something at either 2 or 4 mana. The three slot is already prone to getting very crowded between Deed, Tracker, Deluge, Nissa, Eternal Witness, and others.
[/quote]
I would stay away from Shriekmaw. There's too many things in the format where the trigger is actually a liability, such as if the opponents only creature is a Gurmag Angler or a Strix.
I like Liliana, but I always have trouble finding room. I like my three mana removal to be a bit more versatile. If Lingering Souls ever picks up in the meta though, I would shift to it. What makes Liliana work is that it can grab a creature through a DRS as you choose rather than target. They can respond to the activation but not to the return.
Crop Rotation does everything. I know not everyone likes it, since it's a disaster if it eats a counterspell but if you can resolve it, it's one of your best pieces of combo hate, it can draw you cards, fuel Titania, act as GY hate, return creatures, resist Wasteland, and it's even mana acceleration with a Tower. The card is very, very good.@ sac outlet : Brael is lost in discord so I will say it for him "crop rotation is your lord and savior"
That's true! It's a sac outlet that is permanent, fight wasteland on dual, bounce annoying stuff, protect from edict, exile a graveyard, get your recursion, makes coffee.
The one lesson I learned from SE fit is that to check all of your requirements, your cards must be multi purpose.
Then there is a question if it worth it to keep veterans and not rather go for mox + chalices ... or keep one vet and GSZ. But its interesting build and if works well then your clock is pretty fast and have huge card advantage. Against delver i can image this as very succesfull deck.
Only problem is that everything is up to creatures (no walkers) so for example Miracles will be pain...
Well... yes. If you want only card that can remove oponents creature and sac your veteran then Innocent Blood is go to.
But i need equipment carriers (2x stoneforges and 2x equipment in deck), and i have recruiter, Pod and so on...
Today i played against Sneak and Show and Executer in opened hand was superstar :) and won me game one.
I had him game 3 as well, but...
I casted Lost Legacy and removed his Show and Tell (had gaddock on board so he cant Sneak attack me)... but he had only 3 coppies and he had Burning wish, so he burning wish for 4th show and tell, i revealed Executioner but he revealed Omniscience instead of Emrakul (i knew only that he had Emrakul)
So i'll keep testing him... Agree that 3cmc is crowded :/
Crop is allstar card, i wish to find space for one copy ^_^
Any thoughts on the new creatures ability in Battlebond.
Pir and Tooth might not be an amazing combination in NicFit, but a GB/GR/GW combination might be worth waiting.
Pir:
http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoi...native-rascal/
Tooth
http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoi...ginary-friend/
Some thoughts:
1) Painful truths doesn't give as much potential as bob, but if it resolves I get the cards. If Bob dies, no cards. One copy isn't hard to squeeze in, and it's been good. I'm actually lighter on 3 mana plays than most lists.
2) Liliana has also been easy to squeeze in ( I don't have trackers, so truths/liliana take those 2 slots.) Again, very good grindy card advantage.
3) I wasn't advocating shriekmaw, just saying that if jank is wanted there is better jank.
4) I play 7 basics, sakura tribe elder or no?
I realized Doran has one big weakness: karakas. D&T seems like a fairly close matchup, very dependant on draws. Thoughts on the matchup?
Edit: regarding crop rotation, I think it needs grove/fires to be worth playing. If we need hate, there is plenty of efficient hate. It needs dedicated synergy to be worth it imho.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Played in a charity event (entry fee in donated items, top 8 prizes were also donated from various sources, first place was a volc) yesterday. We had 65 players so just over the line for 7 rounds. This is the 6th such event so far, it's always been awesome, and if you're in the CT/Western Mass area I'd highly recommend coming out for the next one!
I was playing the following, some minor tweaks on Arianrhod's recent list:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Eternal Witness
3 Academy Rector
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vindicate
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming Splendor
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
sb::
1 Celestial Purge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Dovescape
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Lost Legacy
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Round 1: UW Stiflenought/Rip-Helm
Strange deck, I died game 1 to a turn 2 12/12 I couldn't answer but saw white mana at the end of that game. Game 2 I put Cruel Reality into play and Deed kept his enchantment pieces locked down while it killed him. Game 3 pretty similar, he was close to assembling a kill but I had timely decay and sat Deed in play with 2 mana to keep him off being able to get Helm+Rip+activate all in one. Win 2-1
1-0
Round 2: Grixis Delver
Game 1 my deck does its thing and my opponent mulls to 5. Multiple sweepers and a Cruel Reality. Game 2 was a massive grind, we are topdecking for AGES and I find a couple too many lands and not quite enough answers. Game 3 was a similarly awesome grindy game, which came down to him having a few turns to find a Bolt for lethal (I learned he'd boarded some out) while I had him under Splendor and was killing him with Tireless Tracker. He tried to go wide on the Splendor when I was at 2 but i had a timely Toxic Deluge for 1 to swing the match. 2-1 win
2-0
Round 3: Lands
I keep a slow but functional hand game 1, thinking he was on Pile, but his loam dredges are absolutely atrocious and it takes a long time for him to assemble a 20/20. He keeps Ghost Quartering me, trying to keep me off white mana, but I don't ever fetch out my second plains and get very paid off for it. I find Scavenging Ooze and am able to take him off loams and start picking away at his resources until he find a Crop Rotation and makes a 20/20 on my end step. I am able to tank a hit with the ooze, going down to 3, then untap, fetch white mana, Swords the Marit Lage, and then get Rector for Cruel Reality in and he dies to that. Really wild game.
Game 2 is less exciting, my hand has a bunch of mana and but I don't draw any more action than what i start with and I die to Marit Lage a couple turns before I can do anything particularly impactful.
Game 3 I get him under Overwhelming Splendor and beat him up with Tracker and Ooze before he's able to draw his Krosan Grips. Win 2-1
3-0
Round 4: Steel Stompy
I know what he's on having watched him beat up some friends earlier, it's a much more aggro version with Ornithopters, Cranial Platings and 4-mana Karn to go with the usual suspects. It did very well for him, he went 5-0-2 into top 8.
Anyway, game 1 is tight and I thought I'd be able to steal it after a timely sweeper, but I drew a couple too many lands and he drew Karn into Karn.
Game 2, similar, I got a little greedy with my Diabolic Intent fetching Deed. I was on 6 mana with a Rhino in play vs Steel Overseer, Vault Skirge, Ballista, Memnite and a Chalice on 1, I think i should have just Intented for Deed for 1 and played Vet to follow up rather than waiting a turn and hoping to find the 7th mana to get everything at once or find something better to feed to Intent. I was able to do that the following turn and cast a follow up Plow on his Skirge, but I took a little bit of extra damage by waiting and got punished for it. Lose 0-2
3-1
Round 5: ANT
Game 1 is pretty standard, I know what he's playing and mulligan for anything that matters, have a little disruption and a reasonable clock but he kills me. Game takes TOO LONG, this guy is a slow player and I didn't call him on it where I should have.
Game 2 I am able to rip out his Tendrils with Lost Legacy after slowing him down with a Canonist which is whittling away his life total. He then bounces my Canonist, and spends everything he has on a massive storm turn to make 46 Goblins and discard the Deed he knows about from my hand. I've been floating Curse of Death's Hold on top of my library with Sylvan Library, so he dies a couple turns later. Giant storm turn ate up a lot of time, so we're sub-10 minutes for game 3
Game 3 I have a good hand, he blind hits my 1 Canonist with therapy which kinda sucked, I have some pressure on him but he's able to go for an Ad Nauseam. His hits are really bad, he finds multiple 4-mana spells and no rituals to start off, so his life total is very precarious. He plays defense with a Chain on my Ooze, another Chain on my Veteran when I try to Decay it to go for lethal via Zenith for Rhino, and a Decay for my Ooze the next time. He plays Tendrils for storm 2 to force the draw. I think I end up winning this game if we had 5 more minutes to play, so lesson learned, I will be much more proactive about asking opponents to speed up and calling a judge to watch for it if they can't.
3-1-1 still live, have to win
Round 6: Belcher
I have no idea what my opponent is on and keep a good hand: Therapy, Vet, Rector, Decay, 3 lands. I lead on Vet, and he casts Belcher but is not able to activate it. I attack, Decay the Vet and cast Therapy, which sets me up for a turn 3 Rector trigger if I'm not dead. My Therapy misses when I name one of the many mana sources he could be holding (but isn't), but I fade a draw step and get to put in Overwhelming Splendor- which turns off his ability to activate Belcher! He has to use a number of mana sources over a couple turns to Burning Wish for Hull Breach to kill it, but he's out of stuff and I'm able to kill him with Tracker before he gets to activate Belcher.
Game 2, we both mull to 5, he tops his scry and passes, I have turn 1 Thoughtseize leaving him with a 6-mana hand and taking his Belcher. Turns out I was dead if he got a draw step. Therapy shreds his hand and Tracker clocks him very quickly. 2-0 win, somehow
4-1-1 Locked for top 8 if I win
Round 7: Monogreen 12-post (Jeremiah Rudolph)
Game 1 I'm able to lock him down with Splendor and beat him up with creatures before he assembles anything that matters.
Game 2 I'm kind of light on action, Splendor sits in play for a few turns but he finds an answer for it and is able to quickly assemble Emrakul mana with Mirage Mirror and Candelabra doubling up on Cloudposts
Game 3 I mull to 5, keeping Tower Vet Rector Sigarda Therapy, which is a turn 3-4 Rector trigger if I draw a green land. Scry to the bottom. My first draw step is Overwhelming Splendor. RIP. I do then get a green land but I'm not able to get anything relevant going and just get run over.
4-2-1 for 16th place.
Overall the deck felt really good. I Zenithed for everything other than Witness, Tribe-Elder was great. Garruk only came up once or twice and he was ok but did not feel essential. I might actually go to the 3rd Tracker over him. I liked the sideboard options a lot (my matchups made me wish I had 3 Deed 1 Deluge across the 75). The walkers never came in because I never played a control deck, I'm not cutting them but might trim to 1. Cruel Reality was consistently impressive and Tracker overperformed massively.
I liked that 1 Rector trigger was usually sufficient disruption for the midrange dudes to be able to get there, and the midrange dudes alone were sufficient to win a couple games. I haven't played a lot with the Evolutionary Leap build of Nyx, but compared to this list my sense is: Leap build is WAY better at making the first trigger happen, but needs to make the second one happen to win the game. I'll spend some more time with this list and some time with Nyx to get some more info, but this list felt better than the Nyx build from my very limited experience with both.
I had a blast despite being slowplayed by a bad matchup. Curse of Death's Hold killing an Empty for 23 storm was awesome, and turn 3 Overwhelming Splendor to beat Goblin Charbelcher is my new favorite thing I've done in a match of competitive Magic. And most importantly, we raised over 3200 pounds of food for the local food bank!
Thanks for reading!
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