[Primer] Nic Fit

[Kobra_D]

Loam will become Excavator, and I could easily drop a Crop Rotation for another GSZ. I want some way to recur the Depths combo, whether it be Loam or Excavator, and Excavator obviously works better with GSZ. I was thinking 4 Crops is probably too many as well, especially when KotR is a much better engine. I like the instant speed grave hate and other utility lands, but 4 does seem excessive. I can get GSZ #4 in there by cutting to 1 Library. Thanks for the feedback! I think my mana-base is fairly solid, based on your '14 initial sources' feedback. I have 14 green sources, 14 black, and 11 white sources. White is a little thin, but its a fairly light splash.

@Kobra_D: Loam is just a placeholder until I get a Ramanup Excavator, and the synergy is so loose with only 1 Loam that I wouldn't go there anyways. I would probably stuff in a Sejiri Steppe before that, or just maindeck the Karakas. Horizon Canopy is fine, but not Tranquil Thicket.

Yeah, if you drop loam then there isn't a real reason to have cycling lands (Canopy is nice still in top deck modes). Excavator seems to be an underrated jewel at the moment. You may also want some number of collective brutalities just because they can disrupt combo and kill DRS, both of which may be issues for your game plan in general.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, if you drop loam then there isn't a real reason to have cycling lands (Canopy is nice still in top deck modes). Excavator seems to be an underrated jewel at the moment. You may also want some number of collective brutalities just because they can disrupt combo and kill DRS. Both of which may be issues for your game plan in general.

I definitely like Collective Brutality, but I don't have any ATM. Again, the Sylvan Library's are flex spots along with 1-2 other cards (I could cut another Crop Rotation, going down to 2, to fit in 1-2 Brutality.)

Good thoughts, keep 'em coming!

[Brael]

Loam will become Excavator, and I could easily drop a Crop Rotation for another GSZ. I want some way to recur the Depths combo, whether it be Loam or Excavator, and Excavator obviously works better with GSZ. I was thinking 4 Crops is probably too many as well, especially when KotR is a much better engine. I like the instant speed grave hate and other utility lands, but 4 does seem excessive. I can get GSZ #4 in there by cutting to 1 Library. Thanks for the feedback! I think my mana-base is fairly solid, based on your '14 initial sources' feedback. I have 14 green sources, 14 black, and 11 white sources. White is a little thin, but its a fairly light splash.

No need. You already have recursion with Eternal Witness, and it's more versatile. If you really want to diversify away from that, use Renegade Rallier.

[Kobra_D]

So I think I'm going to jam veteran walkers this week for my nic fit brew. It seems close to what I want to run but something seems off. Does anyone have thoughts on what is missing here? Without GSZ I'm not sure I want flip nissa. Maybe more discard?


//Creatues
4 Veteren Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

//Inst.&Sorc.
4 Cabal therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
1 To the Slaughter

//Enchantments
3 Pernicious deed

//Planeswalkers
1 Ugin, Spirit Dragon
2 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Obnoxious
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Garruk Relentless

//Lands
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm sure you have thought of it, but with large amounts of Walkers, no GSZ, I think trying to squeeze in some number of Oath of Nissa would be worth your while. You suggested more discard; do you feel like you are missing disruption?

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[Brael]

So I think I'm going to jam veteran walkers this week for my nic fit brew. It seems close to what I want to run but something seems off. Does anyone have thoughts on what is missing here? Without GSZ I'm not sure I want flip nissa. Maybe more discard?

Stewart of Elements has a very low hit rate in that build, you might as well never use the 0 ability. I think flip walkers are vital to making the card work.

[Lueseto]

I've been trying her in my BUG list and I've found that you almost never want to blind 0, as scry 2 is pretty decent by itself, so I just use the 0 if I set it with brainstorm, which kind of worsens your brainstorm... With stronghold she's fine too.

She really shines with Courser of Kruphix though. You can 0 when you know you'll hit and her +2 almost ensures Courser will net you a card.

What I don't like about her is that she is pure value and doesn't impact the board on her own (aside from the ocassional 10 to the dome). It feels great when you are ahead as she can bury them in card advantage, but Jace can do that as well, and he can bounce creatures to help maintain the board state clean.

Overall I think Jace is just miles more powerful and Nissa doesn't do anything Jace doesn't, aside from costing 3, which is reflected in the immense difference in power.

[Navsi]

Jace also has the advantage of having major synergy with Therapy. Bouncing and Therapying people's stuff is a really relevant interaction.

[Mr. Safety]

No need. You already have recursion with Eternal Witness, and it's more versatile. If you really want to diversify away from that, use Renegade Rallier.

Makes perfect sense. I don't really want Rallier, so I'll leave it at Witness. Thanks!

EDIT: I was reading the primer again, and there's a PW list for Junk. Is it worth trying out some beefy PW's in the sideboard like Elspeth, Sun's Champion? Also, is Garruk, Apex Predator too expensive, or just not powerful enough? I suppose for 7 you get Karn, which is probably better. Are any of the Garruks worth using? I've used Relentless in the past, which seems very good at grinding out games.

[pettdan]

Makes perfect sense. I don't really want Rallier, so I'll leave it at Witness. Thanks!

EDIT: I was reading the primer again, and there's a PW list for Junk. Is it worth trying out some beefy PW's in the sideboard like Elspeth, Sun's Champion? Also, is Garruk, Apex Predator too expensive, or just not powerful enough? I suppose for 7 you get Karn, which is probably better. Are any of the Garruks worth using? I've used Relentless in the past, which seems very good at grinding out games.

Long answer to simple question, bear with me...

7 drops make your list less consistent, I would argue. A lot of the games you won't reach 7 mana before it's over. That's what's nice about cards such as Walking Ballista and Green Sun's Zenith, they can be deployed at low mana cost to interact early in the game or at a higher mana cost to gain more substantial advantage over the opponent in the late game. Playing a green 6-drop creature that can be tutored for by GSZ is generally more valuable than playing a non-creature 7-drop even though you will generally be paying 7 for the creature anyway. Because you are more likely to find it. Well, this is fairly obvious, I don't think I need to explain it further. The disadvantage of the creature is usually that it doesn't have as much impact on the game as a similar priced planeswalker would, but I think most lists use Pernicious Deed or Toxic Deluge to make up for that. If you deed everything on the board but your CMC 5- or 6-creature you're usually in a winning position.

Furthermore, if you want to play 7 drops in your list you probably need access to some extra ramp. The Scapeshift-list is an example, you usually want to reach 7 lands to be able to Scapeshift for 5 mountains and 2 Valakuts or 6 mountains and 1 Valakut. That list plays I think 2 extra ramp creatures (I'm not updated at all, haven't played it in probably 3 years), such as Sakura-Tribe Elder, Wood Elves and/or Nissa, Vastwood Seer.

About the list you are building, I initially thought you had a plan with the Turbo Depths-Nic Fit crossover that you posted, but it seems not to be the case. If you don't have a specific plan for your list, then I would suggest you just try to use one of the lists that you find in this thread and that interests you, rather than trying to build a list yourself. Once you've played the list you can modify it, or make a few modifications to it. But starting from scratch and building a list without a clear idea of what strategy you are trying to deploy is pretty difficult. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't continue what you are doing, just that it seems like a pretty inefficient way to go about it.

[Mr. Safety]

Long answer to simple question, bear with me...

7 drops make your list less consistent, I would argue. A lot of the games you won't reach 7 mana before it's over. That's what's nice about cards such as Walking Ballista and Green Sun's Zenith, they can be deployed at low mana cost to interact early in the game or at a higher mana cost to gain more substantial advantage over the opponent in the late game. Playing a green 6-drop creature that can be tutored for by GSZ is generally more valuable than playing a non-creature 7-drop even though you will generally be paying 7 for the creature anyway. Because you are more likely to find it. Well, this is fairly obvious, I don't think I need to explain it further. The disadvantage of the creature is usually that it doesn't have as much impact on the game as a similar priced planeswalker would, but I think most lists use Pernicious Deed or Toxic Deluge to make up for that. If you deed everything on the board but your CMC 5- or 6-creature you're usually in a winning position.

Furthermore, if you want to play 7 drops in your list you probably need access to some extra ramp. The Scapeshift-list is an example, you usually want to reach 7 lands to be able to Scapeshift for 5 mountains and 2 Valakuts or 6 mountains and 1 Valakut. That list plays I think 2 extra ramp creatures (I'm not updated at all, haven't played it in probably 3 years), such as Sakura-Tribe Elder, Wood Elves and/or Nissa, Vastwood Seer.

About the list you are building, I initially thought you had a plan with the Turbo Depths-Nic Fit crossover that you posted, but it seems not to be the case. If you don't have a specific plan for your list, then I would suggest you just try to use one of the lists that you find in this thread and that interests you, rather than trying to build a list yourself. Once you've played the list you can modify it, or make a few modifications to it. But starting from scratch and building a list without a clear idea of what strategy you are trying to deploy is pretty difficult. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't continue what you are doing, just that it seems like a pretty inefficient way to go about it.

Good thoughts. I wanted to try the Turbo Depths approach with 4x Hexmage, but Warden actually convinced me *not* to try that, with a referenced Gbw list/thought experiment a page or so back. If I were to describe my goal for the deck in one sentence, it would be this: a Depths combo deck with a strong mid-late game that didn't need to win with depths.

It all boils down to this: do I play Knight of the Reliquary with Crop Rotation to tutor up Depths/Stage, or do I play Hexmage/Crop to try and naturally draw into it more often with a faster combo potential. I could play just one Knight, doesn't seem bad, but the impression I got from the experienced dialogue on this thread was that I was 'durdling too much' or 'why use Explorer at all?' I'd love to play the Hexmage version, but I was afraid it was just an uninformed bad idea, so I came here for advice.

Makes me want to say 'fuck it' and go back to my original list...but I know I'm not a fantastic deck-builder or player. Regardless, I love the information sharing and feedback from the thread here, it's been a welcoming and great place to talk magic.

[Echelon]

I think you'd be better off if you turn your approach around. Have a decent gameplan and threaten with the (lategame) I-win button.

That way you have a deck that works at all times and can steal games when you need it.

[Mr. Safety]

+1

That makes sense, and the real hinging point is to Hexmage or not. If no hexmage, then I think Knight of the Reliquary is a naturally strong threat that also happens to assemble Depths/Stage. At that point, is Maverick a better approach?

[pettdan]

+1

That makes sense, and the real hinging point is to Hexmage or not. If no hexmage, then I think Knight of the Reliquary is a naturally strong threat that also happens to assemble Depths/Stage. At that point, is Maverick a better approach?

Two aspects of that is that a) you don't need Veteran Explorer to ramp into Knight, and b) Knight has great synergy with Wasteland. So these two aspects of KotR make him not so common in Nic Fit I think. But sure, you probably could make it work, I wouldn't be extremely surprised, it's a good card at a good CMC.

[Mr. Safety]

Yes, wasteland is the other consideration. Maverick is more concerned with Wasteland and Knight tricks. It pushes it closer to Maverick, which already plays Mother of Runes, which is a convenient way to protect Marit Lage as well.

[Gruby]

Hi. I played a tournament last saturday and I want to share with You ;)

Decklist:
LANDS 23
1 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

CREATURES 17
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Dryad Arbor

INSTANTS and SORC. 17
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Painful Truths
4 Path to Exile
1 Golgari Charm

OTHER SPELLS 5
3 Pernicious Deed
1 elspeth knight-errant

Sideboard:
2 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Hymn to Tourah
1 Elspeth knight-errant

Played 5 games 1win, 2draw, 2 lose ;(

1. BUG Mirror 0-1
Game1: He starts with Vet, so I go with DRS. He went 5 mana turn 2 thragtusk, lot of removal landed this game. This was really grindy but he overcome me and I can't draw enough removal. This was my first match with meren and I forget about her trigger after deed=3, I would have 2 experience counters.

Game 2: -Gaddock -3 Vet +2Hymn+2needle. He blow me with Thragtusk +titania+ tracker. Not even seen one removal spell ;(

2. BUGr Control: 0-1-1
Game 1: I tought it was delver. Saw volcanic island. Fast Rhino+ rhino done it quickly.

Game 2: -Gaddock +golgari charm
Longest game ever. removal for removal, creatures was whipped, burned and sac for his Lilly. Couldn't draw zenith for Sigarda. He blow Lilly's ultigiving me 3 duals and deed and 4 basics I choosed 4 basics. Flooded after that.

Game 3: -2 golgari charm -2deed +elspeth +2needle
Another long, grindy game, Itought that rhino + elspeth make the deal but termination make a draw.

3. BR Reanimator. 1-1-1
Game 1: Mulligan and, keeped hand with 3 lands zenith deathrite path, sry for reclamation sage and put it on the bottom.
I insanely draw removals, turn 3 karakas from top. Make a game with rhino + sigarda and deathrite.

Game 2: -gaddock -elspeth -golgari charm-reclamation sage +nihil spellbomb +tormods crypt+2 hymns
He shows cancellor of the annex
Started with good 7, karakas+2 lands, 2pte, tormods crypt and zenith.
He 1 land, dark ritual, entomb, exhume, griselbrand
Me: karakas, bounce, crypt
fast game, removing whole his graveyard, and drawing tons of removal.

4. Dark depths combo 1-1-2
Game 1: He started with bayou and sylvan safekeeper, therapy called glimpse of nature, dang wrong ;) Marit turn 4/5.

Game 2: -gaddock -elspeth -3vets -3deed +2lost legacy +2needle +2hymn +spellbomb +tormod
Landed karakas quickly enough, having 2 pte and drawing third. Rhino make a game.

Game 3: Marit lage was faster ;)

5. UWR Delver. 1-2-2 in every match here I missed therapy naming stp, see stifle. naming stifle saw stp and so on.
Game1: Wanted to mischief as maverick playing zenith for 0, dryad, t2 drs, vet. But he sworded/stifled everything.

Game 2: -gaddock -reclamation sage -1rhino -1vet +2hymn +elspeth +golgari charm
t1: therapy naming brainstorm, got2! Elspeth + rhino make a game

Game 3: He had a "control hand". Wasted my duals. He had more lands in game than me :D but termination get us caught as 1-1.

Conclusions:
Elspeth was great when she landed. Second bayou is a MUST HAVE ;) Few missplays on my side. I considering change thruths for sylvan library and getting toxic deluge instead of charms. I needed this -2/-2 or -3 sweeper few times.



Thanx for help :)

Edit: I almost forget< every played hymn was superb!!!

[Philipp2293]

Tripple plains seems very ambitious tbh. Since you're looking to fit in the 2nd Bayou have you looked into that switch yet?

[p.faul01]

Hi. I played a tournament last saturday and I want to share with You ;)

Decklist:
LANDS 23
1 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

CREATURES 17
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Dryad Arbor

INSTANTS and SORC. 17
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Painful Truths
4 Path to Exile
1 Golgari Charm

OTHER SPELLS 5
3 Pernicious Deed
1 elspeth knight-errant

Sideboard:
2 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Hymn to Tourah
1 Elspeth knight-errant

Played 5 games 1win, 2draw, 2 lose ;(

1. BUG Mirror 0-1
Game1: He starts with Vet, so I go with DRS. He went 5 mana turn 2 thragtusk, lot of removal landed this game. This was really grindy but he overcome me and I can't draw enough removal. This was my first match with meren and I forget about her trigger after deed=3, I would have 2 experience counters.

Game 2: -Gaddock -3 Vet +2Hymn+2needle. He blow me with Thragtusk +titania+ tracker. Not even seen one removal spell ;(

2. BUGr Control: 0-1-1
Game 1: I tought it was delver. Saw volcanic island. Fast Rhino+ rhino done it quickly.

Game 2: -Gaddock +golgari charm
Longest game ever. removal for removal, creatures was whipped, burned and sac for his Lilly. Couldn't draw zenith for Sigarda. He blow Lilly's ultigiving me 3 duals and deed and 4 basics I choosed 4 basics. Flooded after that.

Game 3: -2 golgari charm -2deed +elspeth +2needle
Another long, grindy game, Itought that rhino + elspeth make the deal but termination make a draw.

3. BR Reanimator. 1-1-1
Game 1: Mulligan and, keeped hand with 3 lands zenith deathrite path, sry for reclamation sage and put it on the bottom.
I insanely draw removals, turn 3 karakas from top. Make a game with rhino + sigarda and deathrite.

Game 2: -gaddock -elspeth -golgari charm-reclamation sage +nihil spellbomb +tormods crypt+2 hymns
He shows cancellor of the annex
Started with good 7, karakas+2 lands, 2pte, tormods crypt and zenith.
He 1 land, dark ritual, entomb, exhume, griselbrand
Me: karakas, bounce, crypt
fast game, removing whole his graveyard, and drawing tons of removal.

4. Dark depths combo 1-1-2
Game 1: He started with bayou and sylvan safekeeper, therapy called glimpse of nature, dang wrong ;) Marit turn 4/5.

Game 2: -gaddock -elspeth -3vets -3deed +2lost legacy +2needle +2hymn +spellbomb +tormod
Landed karakas quickly enough, having 2 pte and drawing third. Rhino make a game.

Game 3: Marit lage was faster ;)

5. UWR Delver. 1-2-2 in every match here I missed therapy naming stp, see stifle. naming stifle saw stp and so on.
Game1: Wanted to mischief as maverick playing zenith for 0, dryad, t2 drs, vet. But he sworded/stifled everything.

Game 2: -gaddock -reclamation sage -1rhino -1vet +2hymn +elspeth +golgari charm
t1: therapy naming brainstorm, got2! Elspeth + rhino make a game

Game 3: He had a "control hand". Wasted my duals. He had more lands in game than me :D but termination get us caught as 1-1.

Conclusions:
Elspeth was great when she landed. Second bayou is a MUST HAVE ;) Few missplays on my side. I considering change thruths for sylvan library and getting toxic deluge instead of charms. I needed this -2/-2 or -3 sweeper few times.



Thanx for help :)

Good to see another rhino player. Have you considered changing rec sage to qasali pridemage? Synergizes with meren. I don't understand the taiga tbh. Curious how good elspeth performed. Were all abilities relevant? I play kaya in that slot and am quite happy.

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[Gruby]

Tripple plains seems very ambitious tbh. Since you're looking to fit in the 2nd Bayou have you looked into that switch yet?

There should be 3swamp instead of 3 plains, I sometimes lacked out of black. But this manabase is budget and crappy ;) I have to take schocklands in place of those missing duals.

Good to see another rhino player. Have you considered changing rec sage to qasali pridemage? Synergizes with meren. I don't understand the taiga tbh. Curious how good elspeth performed. Were all abilities relevant? I play kaya in that slot and am quite happy.

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Rhino was cool, but 3 is enough I think. Sometimes I wanted to have some kind of "utility" creature propably -1rhino +1thragtusk (I like him).
Sounds good, I'll have to try qasali next time. If only I won't be missing Meren triggers ;p

Huh, Taiga is a mistake it was +1windswept heath instead of.

I never tried flipping Garruk and I like her, just individual choice.
Againt controls and delvers elspeth is great. Maybe once I used ulti in my life but +1 abilities are really offensive. Token helps with Lillies if you don't have sigarda on battlefield and turn after he became a 4/4 flying beater after deed. Second ability is really nice when you need evasion or just simply quicken the clock (7/8 flying rhino is usually 2 swings). I think that zealous persecution would work better with her.


Ah and as I mentioned hymn is wonderful

[Lobo]

I'm depending on a case of beer, a bottle of aspirin, and Nyx Fit to see me through Eternal Weekend in Pittsburgh. My list most closely resembles one that square_two posted a while ago, though I'm thankful to Ulysse95, Memories of the Times, and Navsi for their many ideas in recent months. Here's what I'm working with:

Lands (22):
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures (10):
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector

Noncreatures (28):
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Evolutionary Leap
2 Sylvan Library
4 Lingering Souls
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
2 Lost Legacy
1 Ground Seal
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Toxic Deluge

Maybeboard: Drop of Honey, Starfield of Nyx, Sterling Grove, City of Solitude, Chromanticore

Considerations, in no particular order:

• Ulysse95's Crop Rotation package adds a different angle of attack, trading some spot removal and a bit of consistency in the main engine to provide an alternate plan that also improves the S&S, Reanimator, and Lands matchups. If I did this, I would likely go +2 Crop Rotation, +1 Ramunap Excavator, +1 Karakas, +1 Wasteland, +1 Volrath's Stronghold, +1 (sideboard) Bojuka Bog; -1 Lingering Souls, -1 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Phyrexian Tower, -1 Plains, -1 Bayou, -1 Cruel Reality, -1 (sideboard) Sigarda.

• The eight leylines eat up a lot of sideboard space, but they also do a lot of work. It's tempting to trim Leyline of Sanctity, but Rector builds are vulnerable to discard effects since so much depends on the lynchpin creature doing its thing, and LoS answers that concern better than anything. This is of course in addition to its obvious uses against burn and storm combo.

• Leyline of the Void is best friends with Helm of Obedience. I wish I could justify both it and an Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard. If I have a change of heart and wind up trimming Leyline of Sancitity, this is one way I may go. (I might well have listed Helm+ET in the maybeboard above.)

• I'm tempted to remove one GSZ in favor of Recruiter of the Guard. There's something to be said for diversifying my tutoring options, and playing with Recruiter is like having five Rectors in the deck. But GSZ ramps on turn one and becomes a game-ending spell under Dovescape, so I haven't made the switch.