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Thread: [Primer] Nic Fit

  1. #241

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    5 CMC creature answered by Lightning Bolt. Danger Of Cool Things, TM.
    "Have Bolt or die" is a reasonable question to be asking, though. Sylvan Safekeeper is always going to be in the same deck as Titania, too. IMO she's good enough to be worth testing more, maybe in a Renegade Rallier shell.

  2. #242
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Navsi View Post
    "Have Bolt or die" is a reasonable question to be asking, though. Sylvan Safekeeper is always going to be in the same deck as Titania, too. IMO she's good enough to be worth testing more, maybe in a Renegade Rallier shell.
    Actually, it's "Have Bolt/Daze/FoW or die". Since casting a 5 (or 6 if you GSZ) mana spell is begging for a counter. Daze can be blanked if you hit 6 or 7 mana, sure, but at that point we're starting to stretch things a bit. My point is that Bolt isn't the only card that can piss on your parade.

    And Renegade Rallier still doesn't quite do what we want it to.
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  3. #243

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Actually, it's "Have Bolt/Daze/FoW or die". Since casting a 5 (or 6 if you GSZ) mana spell is begging for a counter. Daze can be blanked if you hit 6 or 7 mana, sure, but at that point we're starting to stretch things a bit. My point is that Bolt isn't the only card that can piss on your parade.
    True, but counterspells are an answer to pretty much every spell in our deck so I don't think Titania is any worse off than the other options in that situation, and she dies to Bolt but in exchange applies a much faster clock than our other options.

    What do you think we want Rallier to do?

  4. #244
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Navsi View Post
    What do you think we want Rallier to do?
    I'd want Rallier to either return (or rather re-cast) spells w/ CMC <= 2 or to return permanents w/ CMC <= 3.

    What it does now is just too cute, even when paired w/ Titania (seeing as it'd usually hit the field before Titania does). For 3 mana I'd much rather cast a Tireless Tracker and threaten to take over the game ("Have Bolt or die").
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  5. #245
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    DD is good with Crop Rotation. I'm not a fan of it with Primeval Titan though.

    The utility package I prefer with Crop Rotation is:
    1 Phyrexian Tower
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Dryad Arbor
    1 Bojuka Bog

    And in the SB
    1 Karakas
    3 Dark Depths
    2 Thespian's Stage

    If you search back you can find some SB plans I made for everything. The MB Bojuka Bog has been particularly good, because it has freed me from Scavenging Ooze in favor of a more aggressive 2 drop.
    Interesting. It also gives another landdrop, which potentially adds a counter to TT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    5 CMC creature answered by Lightning Bolt. Danger Of Cool Things, TM.
    True, can't deny this, but even if you could manage to trigger her ability once or twice can be potentially backbreaking.
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  6. #246

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Navsi View Post
    "Have Bolt or die" is a reasonable question to be asking, though. Sylvan Safekeeper is always going to be in the same deck as Titania, too. IMO she's good enough to be worth testing more, maybe in a Renegade Rallier shell.
    I think the bigger issue with Titania right now is the prevalence of BUG decks and thus the higher-than-normal amount of Deathrites. Titania becomes at best a one-trick pony if you are in fact able to keep fetches and/or a Wasteland in the grave. I think she is pretty lackluster if you can't make a token the turn she comes in.

    Maybe there's not actually much more Deathrites than normal, but to me it feels that way right now.

    At some point before GP Vegas, I'll probably give in and buy the rest of the cards required for Dragon Fit online. I'd like to be able to get more reps in with the deck and drum up a bit more interest.

  7. #247

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Chatto View Post
    Interesting. It also gives another landdrop, which potentially adds a counter to TT.
    A counter and a clue, which we have the mana to easily turn into cards. Crop Rotation for a fetch is actually a line I take from time to time with Tracker. It's actually one of the lines that I think makes the card so powerful in our deck. Like GSZ it's early game acceleration, getting Tower. Midgame it's recursion with Phyrexian Tower. But if you're digging for something specific Tireless Tracker turns it into a draw 2, or even a draw 3 if you get some Courser of Kruphix action in there too.

    I actually won a game the other day because I had 2 Trackers down and went Crop Rotation for Volrath's Stronghold, put Eternal Witness on top, next turn draw Witness, play it, get back Crop Rotation, rotation for a fetchland, fetch. That sequence was worth a 2/1, 6 cards, and +6/+6 on each tracker. My opponent just couldn't keep up, which was nice since they were ahead prior to that.

  8. #248
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    A counter and a clue, which we have the mana to easily turn into cards. Crop Rotation for a fetch is actually a line I take from time to time with Tracker. It's actually one of the lines that I think makes the card so powerful in our deck. Like GSZ it's early game acceleration, getting Tower. Midgame it's recursion with Phyrexian Tower. But if you're digging for something specific Tireless Tracker turns it into a draw 2, or even a draw 3 if you get some Courser of Kruphix action in there too.

    I actually won a game the other day because I had 2 Trackers down and went Crop Rotation for Volrath's Stronghold, put Eternal Witness on top, next turn draw Witness, play it, get back Crop Rotation, rotation for a fetchland, fetch. That sequence was worth a 2/1, 6 cards, and +3/+3 on each tracker. My opponent just couldn't keep up, which was nice since they were ahead prior to that.
    Yup, she'll turn the tide of unanswered. I was playing Lands, vs SnS. My opponent dropped Blood Moon which actually helped me: I was able to Crop Rotate for my lone Forest, took the turn, cast TT, with Exploration out made two landsrops a turn. Thanks to Clues i drew K-Grip, opted not to cast it, because in three turns TT was 11/10!

    I would like to pull this of with straight BG Nic Fit, but also play big bombs.
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  9. #249

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Chatto View Post
    I would like to pull this of with straight BG Nic Fit, but also play big bombs.
    The problem is that BG doesn't have a good selection of bombs, that you can GSZ atleast. There's Gitrog Monster but I don't think that's very good. There's Primeval Titan but paying 7 to GSZ is asking a lot.

    What pushed me to straight BG was Nissa VF. She's better than Sigarda in my opinion, and doesn't require white. But then you get into the issue of not being able to GSZ. I'm currently using Chameleon Colossus as my biggest bomb. It has protection which is sometimes evasion, and hits really, really hard. I find that if you have the mana to tutor it, you can probably have the mana to pump twice on the following turn which makes it a 16/16. The only thing that can kill it is Swords/Path/Terminate basically. It survives Bolt, dodges Angler, dodges Strix, dodges Terminate, dodges Push, it even dodges germ tokens. That's not to say it's the best card ever, but I'm finding it to be an effective bomb.

  10. #250
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    The problem is that BG doesn't have a good selection of bombs, that you can GSZ atleast. There's Gitrog Monster but I don't think that's very good. There's Primeval Titan but paying 7 to GSZ is asking a lot.

    What pushed me to straight BG was Nissa VF. She's better than Sigarda in my opinion, and doesn't require white. But then you get into the issue of not being able to GSZ. I'm currently using Chameleon Colossus as my biggest bomb. It has protection which is sometimes evasion, and hits really, really hard. I find that if you have the mana to tutor it, you can probably have the mana to pump twice on the following turn which makes it a 16/16. The only thing that can kill it is Swords/Path/Terminate basically. It survives Bolt, dodges Angler, dodges Strix, dodges Terminate, dodges Push, it even dodges germ tokens. That's not to say it's the best card ever, but I'm finding it to be an effective bomb.
    What is stopping you from just playing goyfs?

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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    What is stopping you from just playing goyfs?
    Goyfs has become a good target for Fatal Push and Gofy is only big dumb creture. Nic-fit want vaule and utilty creture in the deck.
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganfar View Post
    Goyfs has become a good target for Fatal Push and Gofy is only big dumb creture. Nic-fit want vaule and utilty creture in the deck.
    Isn't that exactly what he wanted though? A big dumb creature that he could reasonably cast if he didn't get explorer online that was also fetchable with GSZ?

  13. #253

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    Isn't that exactly what he wanted though? A big dumb creature that he could reasonably cast if he didn't get explorer online that was also fetchable with GSZ?
    If you keep going down that route you may as well just play Rock though. At what point is VE/CT still worth it if all your creatures are low cost?

  14. #254

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    What is stopping you from just playing goyfs?
    I considered it. I'm just looking for one slot. If you go back a few pages you'll find the discussion on it. Strangleroot Geist was suggested as an alternative though, and I gave it a shot. So far I'm liking it since being able to tutor up a hasted threat is pretty valuable in the face of things like Jace or even just as surprise combat damage. Goyf isn't out of consideration yet, but for now I've been liking Geist, especially with a setup that gets Tower more often. It rounds things out nicely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    If you keep going down that route you may as well just play Rock though. At what point is VE/CT still worth it if all your creatures are low cost?
    It's all about having mana sinks. High cost creatures are one form of a mana sink, but they only work when you have large amounts of mana. Instead I have lots of incremental mana sinks. SDT, Bob, DRS, Crop Rotation, Maze of Ith, Tireless Tracker, Stronghold, etc... these all add up as ways to use mana. I have no problems using my mana effectively.

  15. #255

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Is anyone still running Dragonlord Dromoka in their lists? I like him in theory, but I've yet to find him in game, so it's hard to tell.

    Right now i'm on a 4 planeswalker WBG list with 6Sorin, Nisssa VF x2, & Kaya.

  16. #256
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by amppyou View Post
    Is anyone still running Dragonlord Dromoka in their lists? I like him in theory, but I've yet to find him in game, so it's hard to tell.
    Haven't run Dromoka in a long time. Yes, it's stronger than, say, Sigarda, but Sigarda usually still is enough to close out the game so why bother with something even bigger?

    I think that Titania falls in the same category. It takes roughly the same kind of build as Tireless Tracker to be able to take over a game, but Tireless Tracker does it for 2 mana less. And again, Titania's effect is obviously more powerful than Trackers', but Tracker usually still is enough to close out the game if unanswered, so why bother?
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  17. #257

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I think that Titania falls in the same category. It takes roughly the same kind of build as Tireless Tracker to be able to take over a game, but Tireless Tracker does it for 2 mana less. And again, Titania's effect is obviously more powerful than Trackers', but Tracker usually still is enough to close out the game if unanswered, so why bother?
    If BUG is popular in a metagame I can see more argument for Titania. Tracker dies to Push and Decay and Titania doesn't care about either of them. Titania is also a 1-2 turn clock where Tracker usually takes 3-5 turns to actually reach lethal, which is a nonzero difference. Titania just needs to be in a build which can reliably expect to be able to keep the enemy board clear of Deathrite Shamans.

  18. #258
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Navsi View Post
    If BUG is popular in a metagame I can see more argument for Titania. Tracker dies to Push and Decay and Titania doesn't care about either of them. Titania is also a 1-2 turn clock where Tracker usually takes 3-5 turns to actually reach lethal, which is a nonzero difference. Titania just needs to be in a build which can reliably expect to be able to keep the enemy board clear of Deathrite Shamans.
    Or, you know, ignore DRS and deploy more threats than they can answer. There's more than one road you can take.

    BUG isn't something you particularly need to build for.
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  19. #259

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    This weekend I'm traveling a few hours to play in a win-a-Mox tournament in Missouri. I've never been to the shop that's hosting, so I'm unsure what sort of meta to expect. On the one hand, with a Mox Pearl on the line, I can expect every devoted Legacy player to sleeve up his or her best deck (except perhaps for me; I'll be leaving Elves and D&T at home, along with my better judgment). On the other hand, with a Mox Pearl on the line, casual and non-Legacy players may be tempted to enter their jankiest brew just to have a shot.

    My Nyx Fit list is based heavily on the one Navsi provided for the revamped primer:

    Lands: 22

    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Windswept Heath
    3 Phyrexian Tower
    3 Forest
    2 Plains
    2 Swamp
    2 Bayou
    1 Scrublands
    1 Savannah

    Creatures: 13

    4 Veteran Explorer
    4 Academy Rector
    1 Eidolon of Blossoms
    1 Courser of Kruphix
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Doomwake Giant
    1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

    Non-creatures: 26 (main deck is 61 cards)

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Sterling Grove
    2 Pernicious Deed
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Living Plane
    1 Nether Void
    1 Nissa, Vital Force
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Parallax Wave
    1 Faith's Fetters
    1 Starfield of Nyx
    1 Aid from the Cowl

    Sideboard:

    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    1 City of Solitude
    1 Humility
    1 Curse of Death's Hold
    1 Seal of Primordium
    1 Lost Legacy

    Considerations:

    • I've found it helpful to have three basic Forests. Occasionally when running only two, I've sacrificed an Explorer and wished I could find two green sources in order to cast some of the GGX cards in the list (Eidolon, Witness, Courser, Aid from the Cowl). I'm a lot more likely to find them with the extra Forest available.

    • In recent testing, I've gone down to just two Pernicious Deed in order to make room for a Toxic Deluge. While Deluge has no synergy with Starfield or Aid from the Cowl, it can affect the board much earlier than Deed, is more useful under mana constraint, isn't vulnerable to Stifle, and is a better answer to high-CMC threats like Gurmag Angler and Reality Smasher. It also doesn't threaten to destroy our own enchantments as Deed sometimes can. We still have plentiful tutor effects to find a Deed when the situation calls for it. So far the Deluge has tested well.

    • I'm considering adding more graveyard hate to the board, both to account for the prevalence of BR Reanimator and to diversify the kinds of hate I can bring to bear. Lots of Reanimator players are running Reverent Silence, which is just about the last card any Nyx Fit player wants to see. I wonder whether it's worth adding Faerie Macabre, perhaps in place of the City of Solitude. Or should I simply resign myself to losing if they find their Reverent Silence, and devote my sideboard to other match-ups?

    • I'm intrigued by the siren song of a sideboard Chromanticore. It shrugs off Abrupt Decay and Fatal Push, flies over and outraces True-Name Nemesis, and can be recurred through Starfield. Sigarda's hexproof is worth more than all of Chromanticore's keyword soup combined, but she isn't an enchantment, and in many match-ups a second tutorable threat has strong appeal.

    • Nether Void is the newest addition to my list, so I don't have much experience with it. It's obviously great against Storm, Elves, Burn, and so on, but I'd be tempted to leave it in against Miracles and Delver, too. If anyone has any thoughts about how to make the most of Nether Void, I'm all ears.

  20. #260
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Is there a reason that Painful Truths isn't super popular in many builds? It seems like it is perfect for this deck. Card advantage, plus this deck can overcome a 3 mana sorcery because it can sometimes still cast things afterwards. Life loss offset by multiple dudes that gain life. Why is this not a more popular card?
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