I've always thought it should be more popular in the Rhino Junk builds than it currently is. That version has no problem losing 3 life. 3 Tops goes a long way to helping card quality/filtering, but often the boost in raw cards can be game-deciding.Originally Posted by Megadeus
Other builds of nic fit that rely solely on Thragtusk for life, it can be a tad hazy. Most other nic fit lists will usually tend to sacrifice life in order to prolong the game or setup a powerful Deed wipe. Especially so against Delver decks. That's probably the reason for more hesitation to running Truths.
- I like 2/2/2 basics, personally, but either is fine. I can see the merits, but at the same time I don't like the inconsistency the 7th basic brings. Personally I'd drop the second Swamp and try to stay away from double-black cards if I was going for it.
- I'm not fond of Deluge, mainly because it's a card we would usually need early-game and we can't tutor for it, so it's unlikely to really be useful when we want it. We already have Parallax Wave for a 'sweeper' effect which doesn't cost extra mana after a Rector trigger.
- Reverent Silence is pretty awful for us, yes. I'd say if you expect a reasonable amount of enchantment hate, you want the second Starfield more than Aid from the Cowl. As far as not losing to wishboard Silence, I don't think it's something we can really plan to play around. Just eat it, recur your stuff and try not to die. More Nissas might help.
- Chromanticore is sweet. I'm trying to fit him into the Sigarda slot myself, with Collective Brutality for utility and as a discard outlet if he gets stuck in our hand. Having played with Atraxa recently, a 4/4 with Vigilance, Flying and Lifelink is disgustingly unbeatable for basically anyone being aggressive. The deck doesn't really need Sigarda specifically (remember Chromanticore has shroud with Sterling Grove), it just needs a fat monster it can Zenith for when we want to apply pressure.
- Nether Void is primarily good against people who cast lots of spells, or against people we can get ahead of on board. I can see it being good against Miracles, just because slamming Void when we have a creature and they don't probably makes them very unhappy, especially if they don't have a Top.
Congrats
What decks did you play against in that league?
I love every gb list, yours included, but I have a sincere question: isn't the deck lacking some beef? To me the deck seems to be lacking very powerful finishers/tools to stabilise the board immediately, have you not noticed anything like it while playing the deck?
It also seems CA light, but I might be wrong.
Good job with the league!
Excellent thoughts—thank you for sharing them. I may run a Cavern of Souls in place of that third Forest, as you suggested in the primer. I just realized how it breaks the symmetry of Nether Void (my newest card, recall) and lets us cast Rector. Then when Starfield hits, we can deliberately cast any enchantments we draw into Nether Void, let them get countered, and proceed to do broken things.
I really like the thought of Collective Brutality in this deck, because with an active Starfield, the escalation cost can really work to our advantage. If things are going our way, we'd rather have enchantments in the yard than in hand anyway. It's tough to say how we could make room for it, though. Of all Nic Fit shells, I swear Nyx has the least wiggle room.
How often do you find you board in Humility+Curse? When I first picked up the deck, I just figured, "Oh, Humility is for Sneak and Show, 12-Post, Elves, Reanimator—the unfair creature decks." I've since found it performs well against any deck that wants to win through creature attacks. When it lands against Delver, Shardless, or Death and Taxes, it can often buy us the extra turns we need to assemble the Starfield/Deed engine or the Humility/Curse creature lock. It really hoses Miracles's end-game, too, barring a Jace ultimate. Granted, Parallax Wave is great against these fairer decks, too, but in games two and three, why not run both?
Oh, something I forgot to note in my last post: I really like City of Solitude in the board because, in addition to stopping counterspells, it also protects Academy Rector from being sniped by Deathrites when she goes to the graveyard. (So far in my experience, few legacy players are aware of this vulnerability of Rector, but it's nice to close that hole all the same.)
I beat:Congrats
What decks did you play against in that league?
I love every gb list, yours included, but I have a sincere question: isn't the deck lacking some beef? To me the deck seems to be lacking very powerful finishers/tools to stabilise the board immediately, have you not noticed anything like it while playing the deck?
It also seems CA light, but I might be wrong.
Good job with the league!
Elves (Julian Knab)
Grixis Delver x2 (LewisCBR, Bob Huang)
Burn
Enchantress with blue for Ponder, Energy Field (???)
So two of those decks/players were suspect.
Winning cards were typically Master of the Wild Hunt or Nissa. Master kills most things and blocks almost everything else. Nissa is the source of raw card advantage. What cards would you want me to run to stabilize the board that turn? Thragtusk? It's in my sideboard.
Crop Rotation gives you inevitability with your creatures by fetching Volrath's Stronghold.
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
Basically this. It is likely underplayed, but most nic fit versions use their life total for things other than drawing cards, and at the point at which you do use it to draw cards, you start to run into problems staying alive.
The main problem w/ Painful Truths is that it's 3 mana. That puts it in the same territory as other, GSZ'able CA engines.
I've run 2 Painful Truths for quite some time and although they were never bad, they also never were great or very gamechanging.
Painful Truths should see an uptick in play with all the BUG fair decks running amok. Then again our engines can mostly outgrind their BUG CA.
However I still play 1 Painful Truths in the side to bring in vs Miracles and non delver BUG decks. Never too happy or too sad to see them just like what Echelon said. Just a okish CA card that needs stack interaction to interact instead of removal as compared to CA creatures we run. You know different angles of pressure on Miracles' answers = more % points in our favour.
My experience with Painful Truths was that paying 3 at sorcery speed to not effect the board state just wasn't good enough. Tireless Tracker basically replaced Truths. It hits the opponent, costs less life, and still draws cards. The ceiling on the card is just much higher, though it does require some setup.
I like you list. Decided to give it a try soon. Since I don't have those Sphere of Resistance lying around I will replace them with Thorn of Amethyst. I don't expect many elves, so I guess this is OK?
Maybe this deck would like to play Titania, Protector of Argoth as an additional win condition since it returns important lands, likes Karakas and has a quasi-synergy with Crop Rotation?
Arianrhod, this should probably go in the primer since it's coming up so frequently.
Titania is a fast threat but she gets answered by basically every removal spell in the format. If you are coming up against a ton of BUG decks and uninteractive combo, she's fine, but otherwise she is too vulnerable to be a reliable finisher. If you do want to play her, I'd recommend running a Sylvan Safekeeper, both to keep her alive and to give you the potential to one-round people.
You want Sphere so you can beat Aluren. Against Elves I don't think Sphere is worthwhile in this deck.
Titania sounds interesting.
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
Rather than Sphere, why not just use Lost Legacy? LL is good in a lot of matchups.
Abrupt Decay (44% of all decks) - no
Swords to Plowshares (33%) - yes
Lightning Bolt (14%) - yes
Fatal Push (TBD) - no
(numbers due to mtggoldfish)
Although "dies to removal" is not the best argument, a 5cc Threat that dies to Bolt is annoying. My point is, that in this specific list - with the Crop Rotation toolbox - the card could be viable.
Very fast Titanias could easily happen with GSZ off a Towered Exporer to get back a Fetchland and produce a fast clock.
This means that your opening hand was land, land, Tower, Explorer, GSZ and you basically start playing Magic @turn 3 while assuming your opponent does not have a single card that can mess with your plan.
I understand what you're trying to say, but that's just wishful thinking. On turn 3 you're either dead or sure your opponent has some form of disruption.
I'm trying a bg hymn configuration based of dns' list and it feels very strong. It has a more controlling approach, but the problem is if we can reliably survive a fast delver hand. I have only played a couple games but I have to say that the crop rotation package is very underrated.
I always felt that the 2t were kinda awkward without a way to tutor them (prime time is a mediocre 6 drop against anything non miracles), but rotation changes that and offers a lot of possibilities and ways to play the game.
Nice job for having that idea, Brael.
In gb hymn is necessary I feel, it is such a strong card both against fair and unfair decks, we also have less creatures here so hymn strips away their stack/permanent interaction and opens the way for our (small number of) bombs.
What are all the viable options for the land package? I have found bog clunky in the main, I think I'm moving it in the side.
Treetop village is the only tap land in willing to play in the main; it has been so powerful (especially with rotation) in the few games I have played.
Yeah ;) thanks for pointing to reality. Of course this is just one thing that could happen - and with the addition of Crop Rotation, @DNSolver pointed out that getting to sac your Explorer to the Tower gets much more likely. Despite the nice toolbox it provides, I think this is the major upside of using Crop Rotation.
Besides, this list does most of the things other Nic Fit lists do, which unfortunately reads sometimes like:
It's another card you need in your opener and another element your opponent can interact with to mess up your plan. Playing any card into a counter sucks, playing Crop Rotation into a counter is shooting yourself in the foot.
Crop Rotation is card disadvantage and opens you up to pretty big blowouts. Besides, when wanting to go for a lands package why not go for something that can downright beat your opponent in 1 big swing (i.e. DD combo) instead of dicking around w/ Rotation into Tower.
Maybe pulse of murasa could be a consideration for the gb list: gains a ton of life against the fastest decks (no rhino and no path can lead to tricky situations against fast delver hands) and can buy back a wastelanded maze/manland/random land.
Too cute? Probably, but Stryfo showed us that you can 5-0 a league with 3 pulses in the sideboard.
@Echelon: I was skeptic myself about rotation, but I think you should give it a try (only in GB of course). You have to cast it wisely against counters but it smooths the consistency of the deck a lot and makes possible very nice tricks such as pseudo haste dude vs walkers, ramps, finds 2t asap, is a recall in the late game with TT in play.
You were the one that liked intent a lot, and that card leads to more disastrous blowouts after all. Give it a try!
About the whole 'start playing turn 3' thing:
This is one of the problems with the Phyrexian Tower plan, IMO. If you're sacrificing Veteran to tower, you aren't pitching him to Cabal Therapy which IMO is preferable 90%+ of the time. Obviously sometimes we don't have Cabal Therapy, but planning primarily around Tower feels worse than planning primarily around Therapy, in any metagame which isn't hugely slow. The disruption from Therapy looks a lot more relevant than slamming a threat a turn earlier, especially considering that while we play high-mana game ending threats, the deck still is reasonably likely to be able to do something to affect the board state with the 2-3 mana left over after a Therapy flashback on turn two. At the end of the day, Crop Rotation is card disadvantage and you need to be getting some serious power out of it to be worth it. That means if you're Rotating for a Phyrexian Tower to sacrifice a Veteran, you need to be running a lot of powerful threats around the 4-5 mana mark which threaten to end the game in the near future, so you can actually leverage the mana advantage Tower gives you. You spent three cards (rotation, veteran, threat) on getting that threat into play a couple of turns earlier, so it needs to be good because if it gets removed you're in a pretty bad way.
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