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Thread: [Primer] Nic Fit

  1. #2781

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysse95 View Post
    I prefer Sandwurm over Cruel Reality unless you run Curse of Misfortunes
    Me too, no doubt.

  2. #2782
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    I'm not convinced that either one is necessary. what situation does reality or sandwurm solves that splendor doesn't ? or dove (in the event that you need to kill a jace) ?

    I could see cutting an enchantment for a mirri's guile , or one more removal (how many brutality do you play?) the one deed main could be a nice target to tutor for .
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  3. #2783

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Plm View Post
    I'm not convinced that either one is necessary. what situation does reality or sandwurm solves that splendor doesn't ? or dove (in the event that you need to kill a jace) ?

    I could see cutting an enchantment for a mirri's guile , or one more removal (how many brutality do you play?) the one deed main could be a nice target to tutor for .
    Amen !

  4. #2784

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    I think BUG Fit is very unexplored, especially in a traditional shell. Same as Jund Fire is recently unexplored as a strict non-Scapeshift build.
    I don't think Punishing Fire is good enough right now.

    Your BUG list is lacking a lot of interaction. If you want to go low with cards like Leovold you also need to go wide, but you don't have the creature count, card advantage, or appropriate creatures for that. Elder Deep Fiend is pretty solid. Emrakul, the Promised End can probably be built in too... I know Navsi was looking at that, though I like the idea of Walking Ballista as the artifact creature contribution over Baleful Strix.

    If you're going to go low, use fewer Deeds and more Deluge, it's more mana efficient and it can actually do something about Emrakul, Griselbrand, and anything Reanimator plays. On that note, I like having an Edict or two myself, I'll play it over Push even. I've never found Push to be all that great in Legacy. Half the stuff is too big for it like Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, or any fatty. I instead prefer Edict which can be used early, but it can also be used against combos. If you want a filtering spell, I would play Ponder over Brainstorm. Generally we want to dig deep and Ponder goes 4 deep while Brainstorm only goes 3. It also gives you a bit more variation in abilities when you also have a Jace down.

    On 4c, I'm just not a fan, but I don't think that opinion is a shock to anyone.

  5. #2785

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    I can't agree with playing Ponder over Brainstorm, the latter is miles better in almost every context. Card selection is also about getting bad cards out of your hand, but I doubt anyone needs an argument about why Brainstorm is one of the best cards in the format, if not the best.

    I do think Spiritmonger isn't strong enough though, and I've also been thinking about tinkering with Emrakul, the Promised End. It feels as the powerful, game ending spell that BUG lists feel to need. Plus the benefits of building into delirium are already there. To the Slaughter and Invasive Surgery already see some play, Iskanah isn't probably needed but could be considered (though I think Thragtusk is often enough and more reliable) and Tooth Collector seems superb against Elves, Taxes, Grixis...

    The problem is that we are already kind of handicaped because GSZ shuffles itself and Therapy gets exiled on the flashback, and I don't think we can play Mishra's Bauble like modern delirium decks do. Baleful Strix should be a natural fit here, even if it is regarded as too defensive, I think we can run away with it if playing a game ending spell like Emrakul. Probably would want at least 1 Fierce Empath, and I wouldn't love going over 2 Traverse the Ulvenwald because it's just too many tutors plus it's disgusting early on (I don't think that playing less than 4 GSZ is ideal for the decks plan)

    EDIT: Here's a list I came up with yesterday, I've only played it against the wall but it seems to run smoothly. Liliana, the Last Hope seems great in the deck. Being able to +1 on Explorers comes in handy.

    [quote]
    //19 Land

    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Forest
    2 Swamp
    2 Island
    2 Bayou
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Underground Sea

    //17 Creature

    4 Veteran Explorer
    4 Baleful Strix
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Tooth Collector
    1 Tireless Tracker
    1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
    1 Thragtusk
    1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
    1 Emrakul, the Promised End
    1 Dryad Arbor

    //3 Enchantment

    3 Pernicious Deed

    //7 Instant

    1 To the Slaughter
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Abrupt Decay

    //2 Planeswalker

    2 Liliana, the Last Hope

    //12 Sorcery

    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Collective Brutality[\quote]
    Last edited by Lueseto; 11-12-2017 at 05:38 PM.

  6. #2786
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    So sandwurm convergence putting in work tonight. First time off of a rector, second time hardcast!! Love this deck!!

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

  7. #2787
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    And wouldn't splendor won you those games also ? Albeit more slowly I admit.

    I'm trimming the rector package in order to fit in the plan B (and also trying to find what is the right plan B).
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  8. #2788
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    Let's get me back in the game, boys.
    Glad to see you're on team Rhino .

    How have you been liking the lone Guile? And having 4 of those effects in general? I'm strongly considering going down to 3 so I can add another land, but I do like my card selection.

    As for your SB - no Lost Legacy? It's so good vs. so many decks. I board it in a lot. I got to play some paper MtG yesterday and used it to rid my opponent of Thought-Knot Seers (and in the game before that I took his StP's). Whenever you play it just name whatever card you least want to see and it's gone.

    Concerning yesterday's outing: Just when I was about to kick out Meren of Clan Nel Toth she goes and wins me a game or 2 thanks to her broken "draws". Now I still don't know what to do. Goddammit . I did like having the second Tireless Tracker over Vizier of the Menagerie. The only thing that did occur to me yesterday is that I might want to cut a card to support a 7th basic (finally bringing me up to 22 land), b/c even when firing on all cylinders (which for me means I have all my basics out) it feels like I'm still just scraping by. Might be just me though - I can cast/do whatever I want once I reach 6 mana so do I really need it? But still.

    Edit: Or should I just go to 61 cards, w/ Forest #7 as card 61.
    Last edited by Echelon; 11-13-2017 at 03:54 AM.
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    DAMMIT ECHELON

  9. #2789

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Memories of the Time View Post
    Me too, no doubt.
    Thanks guys!

  10. #2790

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Plm View Post
    I'm not convinced that either one is necessary. what situation does reality or sandwurm solves that splendor doesn't ? or dove (in the event that you need to kill a jace) ?
    Being able to kill a planeswalker on board is pretty important. Fetching Doves when your opponent has a resolved JTMS and you don't is pretty risky, considering that you need other cards in hand to turn into birds and they get to either Fateseal you away from high-cmc cards, or Brainstorm into more doves per turn than you are making yourself.

    Cruel Reality and Sandwurm are also actual clocks, which means you can kill your opponent in a reasonable number of turns with them. This is pretty relevant when the deck is generally pretty slow and helps avoid going to time.

  11. #2791

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Navsi View Post
    Being able to kill a planeswalker on board is pretty important. Fetching Doves when your opponent has a resolved JTMS and you don't is pretty risky, considering that you need other cards in hand to turn into birds and they get to either Fateseal you away from high-cmc cards, or Brainstorm into more doves per turn than you are making yourself.

    Cruel Reality and Sandwurm are also actual clocks, which means you can kill your opponent in a reasonable number of turns with them. This is pretty relevant when the deck is generally pretty slow and helps avoid going to time.
    Yeah I'm not cutting them entirely. Being able to lock opponents out by chaining rectors via leap is nice. But being able to resolve one enchantment that just wins is nice too.

  12. #2792
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Thoughts on Nyx Fit:
    So after playing the Nyx Fit version im not in love with how clunky the deck can be. Yes, it does have some incredible draws with chaining rectors. Though in alot of scenarios getting one rector to die didnt mean I won the game which makes me want a omniscience build a bit more.

    Thoughts moving toward Sneak Fit:
    So after listening to the podcast I started to brew with the sneak lists and wanted to add more consistency which they mentioned was lost when top got bannned. So my thought was to utilize blue (yes I know its a little harder on the manabase) but add in not only brainstorm but dack fayden to filter unwanted sneaks and add in p-fire as a additional engine. Here the list im going to put on mtgo later and give it a shot.

    Sidenote: with this you also get to do the whole dack plus leo or dack plus notion thief play. Considering adding a consecrated sphinx also for even more value.

    4x veteran explorer
    4x cabal therapy
    3x punishing fire
    3x dack fayden
    4x sneak attack (maybe 3)
    4x green sun zenith
    1x emrakul
    1x fierce empath (poss 2)
    1x runescarred demon
    1x notionthief
    2x leovold
    4x brainstorm
    3x abrupt decay
    1x woodland bellower
    2x deathrite shaman
    1x inferno titan
    1x eternal witness
    40 cards plus 21 land (61 cards)

    Thoughts and additional card selections are always welcome. Im somewhat new to Nic Fit and love to brew. Also my love for german foils apparently is shared within this community from what I hear!

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  13. #2793
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    @Militiaman89: You should work out the mana base for that list, it will be quite a challenge I believe. I'm guessing you'll have to go without Grove of the Burnwillows because it tends to put a strain on the manabase and you are proposing a 4 color list, something that usually is connected to a very light splash. I don't think Brainstorm is a suitable card for a fourth color in a deck. Anyway, I could be wrong on all those points.. Generally, it's a good idea to try a list before posting it, but of course sometimes we just want to get our ideas out there..

    Edit: I won't do a new post but just add some brief comment here. I think the mana base is priority no 1, next thing I notice is that your removal is 3 Punishing Fire and 3 Abrupt Decay (and Sneak Attack + Inferno Titan/Emrakul). I think you would benefit from Pernicious Deed and Toxic Deluge, these are usually needed because Nic Fit plays slower and heavier threats, if you can ramp into a Deed you have basically reset the advantage the opponent had of playing cheaper threats. With zero of these sweepers you may get out-tempod more often, I believe. And 3 Dack Fayden seems like a lot, at least change one of those into a Deed. Others will have more substantial comments I guess, but this is at least something. Good luck and keep us informed on the test results for this interesting list! :)

  14. #2794
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    @Militiaman89: You should work out the mana base for that list, it will be quite a challenge I believe. I'm guessing you'll have to go without Grove of the Burnwillows because it tends to put a strain on the manabase and you are proposing a 4 color list, something that usually is connected to a very light splash. I don't think Brainstorm is a suitable card for a fourth color in a deck. Anyway, I could be wrong on all those points.. Generally, it's a good idea to try a list before posting it, but of course sometimes we just want to get our ideas out there..
    I just wanted to purpose a list so people could give me their ideas of what to add takeout etc... before I tested it as I said im new and love to get the community's feedback and experience.

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  15. #2795
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by militiaman89 View Post
    I just wanted to purpose a list so people could give me their ideas of what to add takeout etc... before I tested it as I said im new and love to get the community's feedback and experience.
    Then try to take pettdan's advice and try to work out the manabase . No pile works without a stable manabase (save a few exceptions). He says it to help you (and is right in doing so).

    For pointers - you're aiming @14 initial mana sources for each colour and you want your manabase to end up at around 22/23 lands. I'm curious to see what you can come up with .
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  16. #2796

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    I'm curious what enchantment you fetched that didnt win. Few decks can beat one of Sandwurm or One-sided humility. Fetching Omniscience REALLY dont win the game. Then you need another card (emrakul) to win and then your deck becomes even more clunky.
    What i like about nyxfit is that it's a one card combo (+making rector die) that gives you an extremely favourable position. Rather than two card combo that wins on the spot.

  17. #2797

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    [*edit] Halfway through the newest Mengucci video playing BUG fit. He seems much more comfortable with it and it just seems to agree with the fact that NO is a clunky draw in the shell. The BUG shell still seems to not turn a corner as quickly as other variants but that may just be something to consider when building/playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    (1) Punishing Fire

    (2) Emrakul the Promised End

    (3) Maindeck Deluge I don't think Punishing Fire is good enough right now.

    (4) 4C Fit
    (1) I love Punishing X decks in general so I am definitely biased. In the current meta where combo has gone way down PFire might not be so bad. Helps with Czech Pile, helps with D&T, helps with all delver decks. Good be worth considering, although Jund is not my favorite shell at the moment.

    (2) Emrakul has never pulled her weight for me. Usually, she doesn't come online early enough to be back breaking. She isn't a bad top end at 13/13 but I would probably just jam Thragtusk, Nissa VF, or something else that comes down sooner.

    (3) 1 of Deluge is nice in a lot of places but I've always been a fan of main deck edict effects (and at least 1 to the slaughter somewhere in the 75).

    (4) 4C seems to stifle the mana development too much. It might just be how I play but my Nic Fit builds tend to be greedy mana wise and 4C overextends whenever I try it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lueseto View Post
    (1) Cantrips

    (2) Ishkanah/Delirium
    (1) I think the real cantrip that should be played in Nic Fit is Perilous Research, but that's just me :D.

    (2) I've tried Ishkanah before and had a terrible time. Most of my testing was against D&T but it was not good. Other delirium cards can be good but forcing it with things like bauble don't need to happen imo. If you wanted I would recommend Bitterblossom. Does nicely in grindy match ups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    (1) Guile

    (2) 7 Lands.
    (1) Guile over sylvan library? I know people argue back and forth over this, but I've always ruled it out because chalice is a thing.

    (2) I like the 7th land because it allows me to fetch basics early when I have the opportunity in the blind and still have plenty of basics for vet triggers.

  18. #2798
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobra_D View Post
    (1) Guile over sylvan library? I know people argue back and forth over this, but I've always ruled it out because chalice is a thing.

    (2) I like the 7th land because it allows me to fetch basics early when I have the opportunity in the blind and still have plenty of basics for vet triggers.
    I don't see a lot of Chalice in my meta, so that isn't much of a factor (plus, it's what most people run Abrupt Decay for or what I run Qasali Pridemage for, I'm fine w/ Guile coming down a few turns later). Besides - chances of Guile being stuck behind a T1 Chalice is well <40% when facing Chalice decks (since your opponent won't always be on the play and won't always have a Chalice AND a Sol-land), so that hardly seems like a valid point against Guile.

    As for the higher number of basics bit - your reasoning is off. A high number of basics doesn't let you fetch basics, a high number of fetchlands does. Later on, when out of basics, Veteran Explorer basically becomes residual Cabal Therapy fodder or a Guile/Library shuffle effect. This is true whether you run 6 or 7 basics.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  19. #2799

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobra_D View Post
    (2) Emrakul has never pulled her weight for me. Usually, she doesn't come online early enough to be back breaking. She isn't a bad top end at 13/13 but I would probably just jam Thragtusk, Nissa VF, or something else that comes down sooner.
    I had some success running Emrakul PE in my sideboard as a game ender against midrange/control decks like Miracles, Pile, and the mirror. I was just running Elder Deep-Fiend as a maindeck Empath target, and 0-2 other big monsters like Primeval Titan, a Delve creature, or similar.

  20. #2800

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I don't see a lot of Chalice in my meta, so that isn't much of a factor (plus, it's what most people run Abrupt Decay for or what I run Qasali Pridemage for, I'm fine w/ Guile coming down a few turns later). Besides - chances of Guile being stuck behind a T1 Chalice is well <40% when facing Chalice decks (since your opponent won't always be on the play and won't always have a Chalice AND a Sol-land), so that hardly seems like a valid point against Guile.

    As for the higher number of basics bit - your reasoning is off. A high number of basics doesn't let you fetch basics, a high number of fetchlands does. Later on, when out of basics, Veteran Explorer basically becomes residual Cabal Therapy fodder or a Guile/Library shuffle effect. This is true whether you run 6 or 7 basics.
    I starting playing Legacy right before BFZ became a set, so I am arbitrarily influenced by Eldrazi being a menace. You're right, I shouldn't be playing around it as much as I do but it is always a factor that is on my mind.

    As for the basics, yes fetch lands are necessary for fetching basics. But with 6 basics, if you fetch 2 you only have 2 vet. triggers. With 7 you get a third. That's all I meant by the matter. You are correct though, in order to do so we also need a lot of fetches to make it run smoothly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navsi View Post
    I had some success running Emrakul PE in my sideboard as a game ender against midrange/control decks like Miracles, Pile, and the mirror. I was just running Elder Deep-Fiend as a maindeck Empath target, and 0-2 other big monsters like Primeval Titan, a Delve creature, or similar.
    Maybe it was me trying to jam it main deck and finding it poor in some match ups because I definitely sided it out more than I kept it in.

    I am looking forward to trying Deep Fiend once I go back to nic fit, I've been on a bit of a combo kick recently.

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