Been playing Rhino Fit with a red splash for a couple weeks now because I face Lands a lot at my LGS. One card that has been surprising me is Saskia the Unyielding. Her clock is great and trample synergizes nicely on rhino and carnage tyrant.Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Here is a quick write-up on the phone, pardon any inadequacies! I pulled out my old Sneak Fit list last night and got a bit sentimental when removing the Tops.
I went 3-1 in the local weekly with militiaman89's Sneak Fit, see link below. It was so much fun watching the stream, had to try it and had a blast. I was worrying a bit about playing against lands, turbo depths, storm and to some degree elves and Stifles, made a few tweaks to the list based on that but not much/enough. However you can always ramp into Sneak + Emrakul which was my plan vs Depths + Stage. The sideboard was in my view over-prepared for graveyard strategies, I think Leyline otV at two copies hedges enough vs Dredge and Reanimator that room can be made for fast combo, so I added Mindbreak Traps that work with Leovold and help vs Belcher, Storm Reanimator, Food Chain, Omnisneak and can be hardcast too.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1030036
Quick changes to the sideboard:
-3 Faerie Macabre
-1 Carpet of Flowers (getting another, probably needed vs Stifle decks)
+2 Leyline of the Void
+2 Mindbreak Trap
-2 Flusterstorm (getting again after reprint)
+2 Invasive Surgery (better vs Elves and with Surgical, Lost Legacy and Slaughter Games the extraction effects are a serious threat vs any combo deck)
Regarding the mana base, I didn't play vs any mana denial decks but I had trouble with Wooded Foothills not fetching Underground Sea twice. Will change them into Verdant Catacombs and something.
R1: 2-0 vs TES. Some luck involved, but having a hymn-machine in the maindeck helps (Dack+Leovold). Won g2 with Lost Legacy + Slaughter Games taking all wincons. He misplayed but not clear if it mattered.
R2: 1-0 vs Esper Thopter Foundry Stoneblade. Super grindy game, I keep stealing Thopter Foundries with Dacks and he sacrifices in response [edit: and replayed using Academy Ruins]. I assemble Sneak+Emrakul around t15 (took a long time) and think I end up sneaking Emrakul 3 times during the game!!! Thopter tokens and a few lands sacrificed every time. He has Jace active for 6-7 turns, eventually Inferno Titan with a stolen Jitte win during time. Take him down from 49 lifepoints due to Batterskull and Foundry.
R3: 1-2 vs Elves.
I win g1 thanks to 2 P.Fire, Decay, Therapy taking Order+Glimpse and ramping into Sneak + Emrakul. G2 and g3 are won by his Nissa Vital Force. I mulled both games, to 5 in g3 and died to Nissa + Craterhoof with a Deluge on top.
R4: Big Eldrazi 2-0
Last week he 3-0'ed me (took an extra game to see if I had any chance) when I played Grixis Painter which couldn't interact with the multitude of ramping mana artifacts. This list is superb at handling artifacts thanks to 3 Dack, 3 Decay and 2 Deed in the main, and clearing the board with sneaked Emrakul. I feel like the Kolaghan's Command in the board is overkill,perhaps Reclamation Sage should be skipped too freeing up two very valuable sideboard slots.
Having Dack in the list felt great. Weapon vs combo when coupled with Leovold, weapon vs Stoneblade, great strix-stealer, weapon vs MUD etc.. And digs very efficiently for the combo. And card advantage engine with Punishing Fires.
Last edited by pettdan; 11-16-2017 at 10:00 AM.
Thank you for that piece of wisdom. I agree wholeheartedly! The playstyle (and appropriate sideboarding) really improves your anyDelver MU (which is where you feel the power creep the most, in my opinion. Where first you could bust straight through them now you actually have to work for it. Especially vs. Grixis). Resilience also comes in the form of simply running 4 Rhinos (which means you basically run 8, when you count your GSZ's). Even if your opponent answers the first (and/or second), you will find a third one relatively quickly. On a sidenote - I do feel that in order to properly emulate the tempo playstyle, card selection (and having a good chunk of it) is a must. It's why tempo decks can be a thing in the first place. It's also what gives Junk Fit the lategame resilience it needs.
To start this off - when I board out Explorers, I tend to either board out 1 or 3, depending on the MU. Never 4. Simply b/c cornercases are a thing in a GSZ deck.
I board out 1 when facing D&T - they're relatively slow and have their own basics, so there's less need to be explosive. We're perfectly capable of going toe to toe and then over them. I also board out 2 DRS vs. D&T. Paradoxically, they can have a very hard time dealing with an early Siege Rhino. But that's what GSZ -> Dryad Arbor is for, I suppose.
I board out 3 when facing:
- Sneak & Show
- ANT/TES
- Miracles
- Reanimator (regular or Burning)
- Burn
- Elves!
I don't board out any when facing Pox or Merfolk. Pox is just laughably bad vs. (at least Junk) Fit and for Merfolk you have your sweepers. Same goes for Goblins, by the way. In case of Merfolk and Goblins - I tend to keep my Explorers around as blockers when facing them. Lure them into overextending so you can whipe the board on your turn.
There are some cornercases where you snag some good stuff out of their hand w/ your discard beforehand, but yes.
@pettdan it looked like a blast to play. Everything i've played dack i've been happy with all his abilities. I also believe that combodecks have more to gain from cantrips than midrange decks: if your plan is to land big green creatures then gsz is awesome, if your plan is to resolve sneak attack then brainstorm is awesome.
@ echelon : I would be curious to hear your reasoning behind the siding out vs elves! I don't do it but I play path so their lone forest is gonna be fetch anyway. Also I need the acceleration if I want to kill all those elves on sight and still make some plays.
@ greed sneak fit : so much greed and yet it looks so fun
Natural Order is a card. Vs. Elves! I tend to take the tempo path Arianrhod describes. I board in extra discard, Golgari Charms, Ethersworn Canonists, Gaddock Teeg, Surgical Extractions and Lost Legacies (13 cards. The only cards I don't board in are the 2 Pithing Needles. And I'm seriously contemplating if I should. Shutting down Wirewood Symbiote/Quirion Ranger can be pretty damn good.). In order for the SB plan to work (i.e. be fast enough) I have to be very careful w/ giving them more mana than necessary, hence the boarding out 3 Veteran Explorers. And I have to make a LOT of room@ echelon : I would be curious to hear your reasoning behind the siding out vs elves! I don't do it but I play path so their lone forest is gonna be fetch anyway. Also I need the acceleration if I want to kill all those elves on sight and still make some plays.
@ greed sneak fit : so much greed and yet it looks so fun
Guys, any suggestion how to win against Azcanta Miracles?
I keep losing to this deck, my record is 0-9.
Looks like it is not a very good match up for us.
Could you share your list so we know what we're working with?
What are you looking to extract with these? Seems really loose to bring them in vs a deck that doesn't use the GY much and attacks from multiple angles.
Deck list:
Lands:
Phyrexian tower
Dryad arbor
Treetop village
2 Bayou
2 savannah
Scrubland
2 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
4 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills --> I forgot I lend my catacombs to a friend
Spells:
4 cabal therapy
4 green’s sun zenith
4 Path to exile
3 Abrupt decay
Vindicate
Toxic deluge
2 pernicious deed
Sylvan library
To the slaughter
Creatures:
4 veteran explorer
2 deathrite shaman
Exemplar of strength
Scavenging ooze
Eternal witness
Tireless tracker
2 siege rhino
Thragtusk
Sigarda, host of herons
Dragonlord dromoka
Walkers:
Nissa, vital force
Elspeth, sun’s champion
Side:
2 choke
Gaddock teeg
Reclamation sage
Pithing needle
Pernicious deed
Engineered plague
Kambal, Consul of Allocation
Golgari charm
Extirpate
Surgical extraction
2 faerie macabre
2 duress
Just a Classic Nic Fit list. My other match ups are fine, I keep losing to Azcanta Miracles.
I need some advice, I would like to stay with this list at the moment, it worked pretty well for me in the past.
Last edited by Matsu; 11-17-2017 at 09:57 AM.
To be honest, I had to look up what an Azcanta Miracles list looked like.
To keep it short and simple: If UW is back on the 4 Terminus plan you're basically fucked.
I strongly recommend you play at least 3 Lost Legacy in your sideboard. This'll allow you to strip away problem cards like there's no tomorrow.
As for your list in general - it's incredibly top heavy (5 cards @ >= 5 CMC). I'd cut a bunch of the fat for a couple of 4 CMC combat walkers. That's probably the best way to go if you expect to face a lot of Termini(?). And cut the Exemplar of Strength. It dies to a lot of removal, sets you up for a 1-for-2 (which sucks ass) and does nothing extra to mess with your opponents plans. It's not worth it. I'd replace it with a Qasali Pridemage. That's a nice utility card that does a lot of work in certain MUs.
It's a classic Rhino list. Heap of removal, forced into a beatdown plan, 1 library. You have exactly 3 cards in your maindeck that Miracles gives a shit about: Library, Nissa, and Elspeth. Your version is just very ill-suited to the matchup -- you're either going to need to rework your list or dedicate your board, which is going to cost you elsewhere.
And therein Libary is only relevant in the sense that it helps you find Nissa/Elspeth/later sideboard cards. Postboard it helps you dodge Jace's Fateseal ability.
@Arianrhod: The only things that are really problematic at this point are Terminus and Jace. Lost Legacy is a nice multi-tool in that regard, as it's also very useful in other bad MUs. I don't think that the sacrifice you have to make as far as your sideboard is concerned is that big w/ the new Miracles list - you mostly still want to focus on a problematic instant (OK, and a planeswalker, but without Terminus to clear away any creature that might actually be beatable, especially if you run a bunch of Guiles/Libraries that let you ignore his Fateseal ability).
I have been playtesting the Junk splashing Red list that Arianrhod suggested with a few minor changes:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Regisaur Alpha
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Price of Progress
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
Sideboard
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Celestial Purge
1 Price of Progress
2 Blood Moon
2 Slaughter Games
I've played against Sin Prodder before and it never impressed me. I'd rather have another Tireless Tracker in that slot.
Also Slaughter Games or Lost Legacy?
I would add treetop and thragtusk in the suit of good cards in this match up.
For me, a good way to improve your match up is to add a light crop rotation package. Including the two towers and karakas, you can get at least 1 less path.
@Echelon
Yep 4 Terminus, 3 Jace and 2/3 Azcanta.
These are the biggest issues.
Having a free impulse every turn is extremely good.
I was testing a higher curve and it is working at the moment in my metagame.
Exemplar of strength is here for tests, does his job, great when you want to ramp fast (2x GSZ, Vet+GSZ, Exemplar +GSZ, etc...). It could become Qasali pridemage/Ooze/Sylvan library or Hapatra for fun.
Elspeth can become Garruk if you are afraid of a higher curve. I keep Dragonlord Dromoka, he is good at killing Blade deck there are 4 in my metagame.
It depends on the flavor.
@Arianrhod
There is a small problem with sylvan library and PW. I do not have a proper deck list.
But 3/4 Unexpectedly Absent with StP is super annoying. Yesterday I played Nissa /Sylvan Library to gain advantage -> Yippie, resolve, so happy. Then he goes Unexpectedly Absent + Predict my library -> profit. Yep with your fetch/Vet/GSZ, bye bye silver bullets and with impulse every turn, Snapmage for free FoW, Jace is just the cream of the crop, so I do not even mention it. I just cannot pass it. After those one sided games. My friend moved to Grixis Delver so I can have some fun and play proper magic.
Maybe I do not play the deck properly (I played it when Survival was legal and came back to mtg after 10 hiatus),so I am playing it for more then a year now, but Miracles is definitely my ultimate Nemesis.
Any advice will be helpful.
@Ulysse95
Treetop Village is excellent I will play a copy whenever I can.
I am not a big fun of Crop Rotation. I think we do not have lands that change the board state to play crop. Of course Karakas is amazing, even fetching for Treetop will be great, but I would prefer to play Living Wish with silver bullets on the side or Sylvan scrying to keep the ramp. At the end we want those big guys in the board.
Lost Legacy is way better in the unfair matchups in general but Slaughter Games is especially effective against Sneak/Show and can be useful if there's a Miracles presence in your metagame. In the blind I'd probably split them 2 LL/1 SG but that particular split is a meta choice.
Against Sneak/Show, what would you name with either LL or SG, assuming you don't have both in hand so you can't just name Show and Tell in addition to Sneak Attack? Sorry, am still pretty new to legacy, and playing against Sneak and Show feels like "please don't have both ways to get Emrakul/Griselfatty onto the board."
Typically, you'll want to go after either their monsters or their enablers exclusively, and that depends on what you have/what you know they have. If you know from a discard spell that they have a handful of monsters but need an enabler, you take their Sneak Attacks. If they have Sneak but no monster, you take their Emrakuls. Griselbrand in play/snuck in is tough but sometimes beatable, Emrakul generally is not beatable except in specific cases like Wish->Innocent Blood. If you have no info and are somehow resolving a t2/t3 Lost Legacy without seeing their hand, you name Show and Tell first, because you don't want to name a monster and get Omni'd if they're playing that. From there you have more info and can plan accordingly. My blind Therapy name is usually Show for that reason.
Don't forget the trick of: You Therapy, they Brainstorm, you Surgical them to shuffle and see their hand before Therapy resolves. Can easily help you resolve one of these effects with full information.
If you get to resolve a second copy, you will usually want to take the other piece. So if you've taken their Sneaks, you take their Shows and they can't kill you. If you've taken Emrakuls and you take their Griselbrands, likewise. If you learn they are also on Omni, ideally you leave them with Gris+Sneak (after taking Show+Emmy) as their action because that is beatable, especially if you can pressure their life total ahead of time.
Hope this helps some. It really comes to getting a sense of what they can find to kill you, and making that as difficult for them TO have as you can.
It depends entirely on your hand. If you can answer Griselbrand for example, then naming Emrakul might not be a bad choice. The same holds true if you can answer Emrakul but not Griselbrand. If you can't or don't want to answer either, then you would probably prefer to take Show and Tell as surviving a turn from either creature normally is doable.
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