No one said you HAVE to find tower to sac VE. it's the possibility to do it in the right situation that represent the power of the card.
The payoff is the land package, the improved consistency through recursion, the eot hasty manland and the possible magical Christmas land of recalling yourself with TT in play.
But ultimately the most impressive thing to me is the OPTION to do all those things according to the situations you are facing.
It's a T1 play that helps against those dumb decks that poop out a T1 griselbrand (bog or karakas or both).
Note that I also play 3 hymns (AND 2 TS in the side) in this deck, so it's not like I'm lacking hand disruption even if I want to burn a land to ramp with tower. Conversely the rotated tower allows me to have BB more consistently to cast hymn.
I'm not saying crop is a must in this archetype, only that it's underrated. I know I underrated it.
Fetching Karakas / Bog is nice. Being able to cheaply fetch combo hate is a nice thing to have, and Hymn improves combo matchups further. You are sacrificing some of your percentage points against fair decks in exchange, but we already have good matchups there and depending on the meta it might be worth it anyway.
Too much BS (bullshit, brainstorm: its all the same thing) online, in the form of show and chimp and BR Griseldumb. After the "fall" of the eldrazi storm is more common too, and miracles is still the most prevalent deck. Your analysis is perfect and corresponds to this meta I'm playing in.
Let's see if I like this list more than 8🦏
Yes, b/c it's not like those decks play 8 free counters or anything...
Again, I understand what people are trying to convey, but please do consider the entire context of what you're trying to answer w/ a given package. I mean, by that same logic a set of PtE would suffice to deal w/ Reanimator (where we all know it isn't).
As a path player, path doesn't stop past in flames or loam..
And in junk karakas is just one singleton that cannot be tutored until primeval Titan (we wish we would live until 7mana is possible)
I play the full 4 AD and 3 hymns, I'm on mobile now.
I will even try chameleon colossus and go the Brael route, f it
Talking about the rampaging BR reanimator - they are pretty light on countermagic (although they do have some disruption). The opportunity costs to suddenly be able to deal with such decks is still very low in my opinion. We do not trade a lot of power and I think we even gain some consistency. But I could be wrong - testing will show.
As always, I agree with most of what you said here. Even then, I'm still going to fiddle around with a crop rotation. It's been kicking around this forum for weeks and the people playtesting it haven't seen fit (get it?) to remove the card yet, so I want to give it a try. I think the key is to think of it as either an 'out' (fetch a bullet that prevents your opponent from winning, i.e. Karakas or Bog) or as extra consistency, but not as plan A. Devoid of context, I'll always just use Therapy to eat an Explorer and disrupt my opponent, but if I don't have a Therapy then Crop Rotation is a decent fifth Therapy in that it does allow me to execute my gameplan.
I also agree you absolutely need serious power out of the card to make it worth it - that's why I'm going to try a singleton in Sneaky Fit. Anything that increases the odds of T2 Sneak Attack should greatly improve matchups vs. Storm, Reanimator, Tin Fins, etc. It also seems like an elegant way to add consistency to the Punishing Fire package when you need it, which certainly isn't every time, but is game-winning when you want some P-Fires. It also allows me to remove StE and Meren for Crop Rotation and Tireless Tracker, as my meta has shifted noticeably away from Eldrazi and towards Combo recently.
Lastly, I played in a weekly last Thursday. It did not go well. I'll spare you all the grisly details, but I lost to Tin Fins, BR Reanimator, and Storm on some bad mulligans and embarrassing misplays (particularly against Storm, where I didn't fetch lands correctly to preserve my out of drawing Lost Legacy - naturally, I drew lost legacy and couldn't play it because I'm bad). I still think Sneak is one of the best variants out there, but it's no fun when you hit a streak of bad draws and matchups. Sticking around, wanting to win a match for personal pride, I ended up getting a bye R4 and called it a night.
I've already cut Meren and STE from my build, so I don't have those slots for Rotation, but I can see them being reasonable. Personally I'm not running Tracker, because IMO the migrange-value pressure he brings, while nice, isn't really necessary when the deck is slamming Titans and Eldrazi.
One of the big advantages to Crop Rotation is that it can be reactive, where you get your Karakas/Maze in response to a reanimation, but if you get an opening to cast it earlier, like you know the path is clear against S&T, or before Reanimator can make you discard it, you can fire it off proactively.
I'll say this, as someone who has a local meta right now that's basically all combo, Crop Rotation has helped my combo matchups immensely, to the point that my deck is still viable when it otherwise wouldn't be. Additionally, Crop Rotation is space neutral in your deck, because it can find things like removal, and card draw, and threats, you don't dilute your deck by adding it. It's like adding GSZ in that regard.
I've been thinking about your list for a couple days now since we're both playing relatively similar BG lists. My thoughts after a few days:
Master of the Wild Hunt seems like a good call for a 4 drop. I'm less thrilled about Thrun though since GSZ removes uncounterability so I think I would rather hit harder. Still, Master could easily replace Garruk in my list.
I've come to a completely opposite conclusion to you with Tireless Tracker, it's possible you just haven't yet had a game where it's good. I noticed you're only running 11 creatures, and 4 of those are Vets, plus you have very little CA. That means removal is going to be pretty good against you. Tracker works a lot like Dark Confidant in that you need other cards to first clear the way, after that's done you can play it as a CA engine and ride it to victory. We've had a lot of reported success with the card, but I don't think your list is really set up to take advantage right now.
I think you could free up a lot of sideboard and even mainboard space if you put Lost Legacy in your list, it's such a great catchall answer to unfair decks.
I think I've already responded to your final point which was about lowering the curve, but just incase I haven't I'll respond again. It's a great plan, the thing is though, with ramp you need some productive way to spend your excess mana. To me, that means a focus on card advantage.
On your use of Treetop Village, I'm actually not a fan. A couple months back I was experimenting with a creature land slot. Treetop is the one I tried the hardest to use, but I found coming in tapped and only producing 1 color combined into too many drawbacks. Other things I tried were Hissing Quagmire and Mutavault. I would say that Mutavault was the smoothest of the bunch because you could Crop Rotation for it, and then it could block that turn, or it could tap for mana. Unfortunately for Mutavault, a 2/2 just didn't have enough of a body to be relevant... it was close but I would say it needed some sort of extra synergy to push it over the top. I think Master of the Wild Hunt hit my radar at that time, but I never tested it.
With Karakas, I find myself leaning towards using it as a SB card. I'm finding the land situation to be fairly tight due to the use of basics. Instead, I'm preferring just Maze of Ith for my MB land removal since it works on everything, and even has a lot of tricks with your own attackers, such as untapping them after the declare damage step for pseudo vigilance and making blocks tricky for your opponent since you can chump attack. That's in addition to the obvious mode which is using it as removal. With Karakas there's the argument that it provides mana, but I think all of those other factors outweigh some colorless mana.
Come to think of it, it's probably a choice between Maze of Ith and no creatureland (except Arbor) vs Treetop Village with Karakas for G1.
Speaking of Arbor, any reason for not including it? Arbor drastically opens up your range of good starting hands due to the synergies with Tower and GSZ.
When it comes to creatures, I feel like Scavenging Ooze isn't where you want to be. I'm not sure what's the optimal card to replace it, but Bojuka Bog covers a lot of the same territory more efficiently.
I definitely agree on Nissa, except I would raise the argument that a third in the SB for use against fair decks wouldn't be the worst thing in the world as long as you're not on my Bob plan.
What are you using Reclamation Sage for in G1?
This is what I think my next BG revision will look like
23 Land
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
5 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
17 Creature
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Strangleroot Geist
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
21 Other
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Nissa, Vital Force
I'll have to think about the SB a bit. I still like the DD plan, but it's a little more niche than I thought it would be initially, which makes it a hard sell for 6 SB slots.
@ Brael: funny, our list look quiet similair, even more so than compared with DNSolver. I'm a bit more into TT, playing three (she is one hell of a lady), and having P-Titans as the top dog to take full advantage of TT's (see what I did here?). I know you're no fan of Titan, but he's awesome. The incorporation of CR: it's synergy with TT is undeniable, and getting your utility-lands is of course good, yet losing a land in the progress stops me of playing the card for now. I understand CR is good, being primairly a RGCL-player myself, but in that deck I at least play Life from the Loam.
Now for the list:
Creatures (16)
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wall of Blossom
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Primeval Titan
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer
Planeswalker (2)
2 Nissa, Vital Force
Spells (21)
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
Lands (21)
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
Sideboard (15)
1 Thragtusk
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Duress
As you can see: 60 vs 61 cards. I could easily up the # of creatures with a Master of the Wild Hunt. He seems to be the preferred 4-drop of choice for me as well. Wickerbough Elder is another option for me. To be honest, the creature-package is still in flux, but I like it for now.
Also, Fatal Push: awesome card. It's an all-star, and I would encorage you to test the card.
The sb is a mess, and will see some more change. Lost Legacy is a card on my short list, as is CR with some utility-lands.
I wanted to take the list for a spin, but still missed some cards, so no field testresults for now.
Except GSZ isn't card disadvantage and doesn't potentially screw over your ability to cast stuff. If GSZ required you to sacrifice a green creature (or a land) as part of the casting cost we'd be a lot less inclined to run it. GSZ for X = 3 is a perfectly fine play, right? Yet we consider Natural Order a big no-no, even though it can give a much bigger payoff.
Sure, the lands package can do very powerful stuff, but it's far from comparable to GSZ.
I agree, especially on the ooze part. I agree on thrun if we are talking about his place in junk, but here with the ability to tutor for 2t very consistently thrun seems like an even more unremovable guy due to his uncounterability. How can miracles kill him when 2t is assembled ?
The ability to obtain an early vet trigger (with ct) into fetching two swamps for casting hymn the same turn is devastating against everything non reanimating griselbrand. This is one of the main attractions of the deck, it makes the deck do very nasty unfair thing against unfair decks.
In this crop rotation gb deck I think prime time is suboptimal. You can laugh at me but for the same cmc and stats I'd rather play rampaging baloth (which would satiate the fetish that you guys have towards Titania)
@ Brael @ Rubblekill:
I truly think that any pure BG build is asking for inevitability and recursion engine.
1) The Two Towers are some sort of inevitability.
2) Thrun is some sort of inevitability
3) Since you are playing a bunch of utility lands and some crop rotation, I suggest you add one wasteland or ghost quarter (tests should tell which is better @ debate STP vs Path) in the mix with one LftL.
4) Grave Titan is one reason to play GB...
5) At last, I recommend adding a pair or one entomb.
Few tips:
- Entomb can get you a therapy
- Therapy + entomb + dryad is another mean to apply pressure against combo deck.
- Entomb will usually fetch for LftL (but you can entomb for any of your utility land when you have LftL)
I wouldn't dismiss Ooze in a BG build.
Your lists are lacking LotV:
If Terminus + Jace are Miracle's sweetest spot, Deed + Lili is our...
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