Lightning Bolt vs Punishing Fire was discussed in this thread a while ago, maybe this spring? And most people active in the discussion seemed to think Lightning Bolt was better, but I think this discussion was for the Sneaky Fit lists. And perhaps Top was still around back then. I wouldn't be so quick to neglect it, not then and not now.
It seems to me (based on my limited understanding of the meta game's development) like the meta is grindy enough that repeatable removal in the form of Punishing Fire is very valuable. The few creatures it doesn't destroy [edit: Leovold, TNN, Gurmag/Tasigur/Tombstalker] can be handled by Liliana of the Veil, and when coupled together they bring card advantage. The card, Punishing Fire, single-handedly deals with most of Czech Pile, it is also a valuable card vs Miracles since it can prevent Jace ultimates, gain card advantage coupled with Liliana and potentially stop a Mentor and its swarm of tokens. Also Liliana of the Veil is useful vs any deck trying to accumulate a critical mass of cards (storm) or putting a large creature into play (Reanimator, Show and Tell). None of this is any news, really, I just think that Punishing Fire with Liliana of the Veil can be a very good meta call. They are very useful vs Eldrazi too. Then there is the overlap between Punishing Fire and Liliana, the Last Hope. I think a list could play both of them, not sure what list but there is some room for experimentation.
Actually, I couldn't stop myself from putting together a list, sorry for posting it without testing.. If someone wants to help me improve the list I'll happily take suggestions here or in PM's, may try the list tomorrow.
Maindeck: (61)
Creatures: (13)
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
Discard: (7)
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
Removal: (9)
1 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers and removal: (5)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Garruk Relentless
Tutors: (6)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
There could be a Sylvan Library here. Maybe skipping the Crop Rotations.
Lands: (22 in total)
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Bojuka Bog (could be a Volrath's Stronghold)
2 Bayou
0 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
8 Fetches
Sideboard:
1 Crop Rotation
1 Karakas
1 Thoughtseize
1 Lost Legacy
1 Slaughter Games
2 Leyline of the Void [edit: with Ooze, Deathrites and Crop into Bog this seems like overkill, will change into Blood Moon, Spyglass or Bitterblossom or similar]
1 Golgari Charm (or Toxic Deluge)
1 Carpet of Flowers
4 Natural Order
1 Ruric Thar
1 Progenitus
Maybe the Natural Order package is unnecessary, I just like how it's very relevant vs both combo and fair non-blue decks.
or skipping the Natural Order-package:
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bitterblossom
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Something else
Like most Jund lists it looks very weak vs Lands, not sure what to do. Crop Rotation + Bojuka Bog and Karakas is relevant, so is Sorcerous Spyglass and Bitterblossom. And Natural Order + Progenitus can at least be a fast clock.
Last edited by pettdan; 01-02-2018 at 02:59 PM.
I still play PFire NicFit nearly exclusive. Or Aggro Loam. Not playing to much lately tho. Anyhow here is a list i recently updated, biggest differences are the Dinosaurs, Chandra, ToD and the exclusion of Abrupt Decay. Every card must be able to generate some advantage, kind of compensation for missing tops. It topdecks pretty decend.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kagu-tsuchi-jund-nicfit/
Lands is a Nightmare for this deck as it always was.
@Bobmans: Nice input, thanks! A Blood Moon or two could be valuable in the board and Nissa, Vastwood Seer and Chandra ToD are very relevant considerations for the maindeck, big Nissa too.
Maybe PF Nic Fit gained a new toy?
Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Tapatalk
Where are the Rhino builds?
MTGO: Ricardio
Nic Fit: legacy's magical EDH deck
I came here to party and resolve prime time triggers.
"Well, I ain't calling you a truther." -Josh
IMGUR:http://ricardio69.imgur.com/all/
Echelon and I have been throwing around a Bob Rhino build. Here's the take I had on it
23 land
4 verdant catacombs
4 windswept heath
2 bayou
1 savannah
1 scrubland
4 forest
1 plains
1 swamp
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath's stronghold
1 dryad arbor
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
19 creatures
4 veteran explorer
2 deathrite shama
n 4 dark confidant
1 eternal witness
4 tireless tracker
1 nissa, vastwood seer
3 siege rhino
19 spells
4 cabal therapy
4 green sun's zenith
1 collective brutality
2 crop rotation
3 swords to plowshares
2 diabolic edict
1 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 pernicious deed
This was Echelons
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
Wow, I like Echelon's build more. Not usually the case.
How have the bobs been?
MTGO: Ricardio
Nic Fit: legacy's magical EDH deck
I came here to party and resolve prime time triggers.
"Well, I ain't calling you a truther." -Josh
IMGUR:http://ricardio69.imgur.com/all/
Bob is fine, like always. Worth noting, the curve in either of these builds is extremely low so there's really only a narrow window where Rhino might flip for 4, in most circumstances you'll regain it right away. So for Bob purposes, you can really consider either of these decks to top out at 3.
4 Bob 4 Tracker is a very potent way to take advantage of mana ramp.
So, I have a little project to try if anyone is interested. Navsi mentioned a point based evaluation system in Discord the other day. From what I gathered from it (lots of brief discussion, so I just skimmed the history), the hardest part is in weighting points properly. It ends up being fairly arbitrary for example how much you want to weight the ability to not be killed by STP vs the ability to beat a Leovold in combat.
So, I've had this idea floating around in my head for a while, that we can make a giant matrix of all the cards we're concerned about, and all the cards we want to consider. Each ranking is pretty simple, is the card in row 2, column 1 good against the card in row 1 column 2? If it passes the criteria we lay out, that spot gets a 1 in the matrix, and if it doesn't it gets a 0.
When all is said and done, we wind up with a big grid of 0's and 1's. This is where it gets interesting though, because this is a giant matrix, we can use matrix math on it to gain some information. Depending on which way this gets multiplied it creates either a finishers by finishers matrix which gives us a counting of how many cards each finisher is relevant against. Or we create a finishers by card matrix which will show us groups of finishers that overlap. Once this is done, some metagame weighting can predict a good suite of finishers for any given moment.
Any takers on trying to list finishers, cards we want to evaluate against, and rules for evaluation? Ideally we want to keep this small, I've got a similar larger project which uses every card in Magic for a similar purpose, but that gets out of control quickly.... preferably no more than 20 finishers/100 cards is what we would want here (and hopefully even less).
Edit: I'll start with an example card. The point based systems being thrown around earlier rated Nissa, Vastwood Seer as our best finisher. So since it's the winner, I'll use it. Though I'm likely still missing a few rules and criteria.
Rules: Trades up at any cost, trades down at 1 mana deficit or better. Or beats card to win.
General criteria:
1 - 6 mana or less
1 - Card advantage
1 - Can GSZ (optional?)
Combat:
1 - Beats Strix
Beats Angler
Beats TNN
Beats Griselbrand
1 - Beats Delver
1 - Beats Jace
1 - Beats Leovold
Beats Marit Lage
1 - Beats TKS
Beats Reality Smasher
1 - Beats DRS
1 - Beats Lingering Souls
1 - Beats Pyromancer
Beats Tarmogoyf
Resiliency
1 - Beats Fatal Push @2
1 - Beats Fatal Push @4
1 - Beats STP
Beats Bolt
1 - Beats Deed
1 - Beats Deluge
Beats Decay
Beats Pulse
Beats FoW
1 - Beats Spell Snare
1 - Beats Spell Pierce
1 - Beats Daze
1 - Beats Stifle
1 - Beats Terminus
1 - Beats Tabernacle
Beats Punishing Fire
1 - Beats Jitte
1 - Beats Chalice
1 - Beats Kommand
Beats Discard
Evasion:
Relevant protection
Evasion ability
1 - Goes wide
Hi Folks,
this is my first post here, so i hope for any suggestions to bring this deck competitive.
I am playing Nic Fit for a while and almost everyday i am brewing on this pile.
I brought a version of this Deck to a tournament, with mixed results.
So this was my first legacy tournament for a long time, with nearly no knowledge about the Meta or any MU's.
But i had a great time and so i wanna have more fun next time.
Here it is, feel free to comment.
If someone wants to help me improve the list I'll happily take suggestions.
If you need any explanations for specific cards, then just ask
Deck: 4c - Nic Fit
//Beating Things
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Stoic Angel
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Xantid Swarm
//Paying Things
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Windswept Heath
//Destroing Things
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
//Valuing Things
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Lingering Souls
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Recurring Nightmare
//Sideboard
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
Deckstatistik anzeigen
I also got an alternative deck - plan, with a little Rector "Splash" for alternative win conditions and a better MU for S&T.
But this pile seems not so competitive to me?!
Deck: Rector - Nic Fit
//Main
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Lingering Souls
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
//Creatures
2 Academy Rector
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Stoic Angel
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Xantid Swarm
//Lands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Windswept Heath
//Enchantments & Artifacts
1 Cast Out
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming Splendor
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Scroll Rack
//Sideboard
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
Deckstatistik anzeigen
Thanks a lot! Greetings,
Mike
I haven't seen it discussed on the thread so what about this new card :
It seems nice on a Veteran explorer, or a Rector maybe ?
I have been out of legacy for a while now so these thoughts are only speculative:
I think Jund might be stronger at the moment for cards like blood sun and REB.
blood sun and groves makes me wanna pfire kids down
carnaage tyrant as a finisher needs to be tested
bob builds seem strong but counter intuitive for a "ramp deck"
Choke seems like a must have in the board
nyx fit seems too cute albeit isnt that nic fits middle name?
cards like thrun and broodmate seem well positioned
MTGO: Ricardio
Nic Fit: legacy's magical EDH deck
I came here to party and resolve prime time triggers.
"Well, I ain't calling you a truther." -Josh
IMGUR:http://ricardio69.imgur.com/all/
@grokh: I think Recurring Nightmare does it much better. Playing the enchantment and having the creature it targets removed in response is miserable.
@Ricardio: sounds like good ideas to me. I think Thrun is well positioned too, but also when I compare it to another copy of Tracker it seems better, costing less, hitting similarly hard or harder and bringing card advantage. But still, Thrun seems better than in a while.
i agree that tracker is very strong but thrun can be that unstoppable card we need to stall or get throw large blockers using pfires
tracker dies to most things where as thrun needs a damnation or deluge to unstick him from the opponents anus
thoughts on Xenagod as a gszable powerhouse? 8/8 thrun, 6/4 tracker, etc
MTGO: Ricardio
Nic Fit: legacy's magical EDH deck
I came here to party and resolve prime time triggers.
"Well, I ain't calling you a truther." -Josh
IMGUR:http://ricardio69.imgur.com/all/
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
MTGO: Ricardio
Nic Fit: legacy's magical EDH deck
I came here to party and resolve prime time triggers.
"Well, I ain't calling you a truther." -Josh
IMGUR:http://ricardio69.imgur.com/all/
Great. The card list should be easy, as it's really just a collection of the highly played cards in the format. I think some website (mtgtop8?) even lists the top 100 or 150 cards by frequency. So really, the rules for card evaluation are the big thing to build.
3 mana, does nothing to effect the board. Enchantment so vulnerable to a 2 for 1 innately. Flip side involves high risk and Wasteland vulnerability, and to even gain your first card you'll have had to sink 9 mana into it.
Chameleon Colossus is basically a harder hitting Thrun. It beats anything in combat, dodges most removal and the protection is pretty good.
Didn't even realize that was a card. I think in most situations though, you would rather just have Sigarda if you want resilience, or a Rhino if you want reach. This card strikes a weird middle ground between the two.
Chameleon is a good beater. It can close games very fast.
And I disagree about Mystic.
In numerous MU, the card is more powerful than a Rhino or a Sigarda.
Sigarda doesn't block a gurmag/smasher and gets to live.
Sigarda doesn't attack into a baleful strix
Sigarda doesn't chump a Marit Lage/Grisel every turn.
The same could be said about Rhino.
The only thing you have to consider is to be able to build a deck around this card (and find a way to protect your threshold). Sigarda/Rhino can also be in the deck where Mystic can/should be x4.
My starting point would be something like that:
You should be able to meet threshold quite fast and protect it. Ground seal shut off many cards in Legacy's meta right now.
Of course, numbers have to be adjusted and a proper sideboard should be brewed (obviously to combat bad MUs):
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Perilous Research
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Mystic Enforcer
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Ground Seal
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Savannah
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
This is 56 cards. The last 4 should be 4 more creatures (which 2 should be blue and green at least to support FOW MD and at least 1 should give you life back).
@ Ricardo: Sure mate. What do you want me to talk about ? That dino is a "monster"; a true one. The only problem I have with him is that:
- CMC 6 is no joke
- If you are able to zenith for 7, you are already winning (most of the time, and if not, his tanking ability is just above the average (not flying is a pain).
- He is a beater not a clear "utility" card. I think we can afford 0 to 1 beater max depending on your build. Velocity in Legacy is a thing and to my taste he isn't veloce enough (at the moment)
- He is shining against one MU I believe: the new miracle and that it's.
Happy brewing everyone !
Ralf
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
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