[Primer] Nic Fit

[Brael]

This is 56 cards. The last 4 should be 4 more creatures (which 2 should be blue and green at least to support FOW MD and at least 1 should give you life back).

I don't like FoW, it requires too many blue cards that just add air. I think you would be better off adding some flash threats like EDF and Clique. Then you could use cards like Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce as your counters.

If you want to enable the GY, I've been playing BUG lately to some success on MTGO and have been using Search for Azcanta, it's a good enabler but it still rarely hits 7 cards to flip.

You're still talking about a Bant build though, which I think is much worse than including black.

[Ralf]

I don't like FoW, it requires too many blue cards that just add air. I think you would be better off adding some flash threats like EDF and Clique. Then you could use cards like Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce as your counters.

If you want to enable the GY, I've been playing BUG lately to some success on MTGO and have been using Search for Azcanta, it's a good enabler but it still rarely hits 7 cards to flip.

You're still talking about a Bant build though, which I think is much worse than including black.

I would tend to disagree here.
Blue is the best color just because of permission and brainstorm.
The number of hands a brainstorm can fix is really high.

Historically speaking Nic Fit has been playing black for the cabal therapy combo with veteran and pernicious deed.

Since Delve and Eldrazi are a thing, Pernicious is no longer a good choice.
CT is also a hit or miss kind of thing and forces you to play ritual speed.

According to me, the times when black > blue are over (SDT's departure put the last nail in the coffin if you ask me). This is unfortunate but at least we can evolve as well.

With Perilous Research, you gain the advantage to be the first to exploit your free basics and for the sake of it, you'll end up interacting more with what your opponent is doing.
Perilous can be great without veteran (responding to a wasteland, a removal on your creature etc...), this is harder to say for CT.

Anyway, if you are very reluctant to play blue, you can remove blue and add your usual suspects in black.

My two cents.

[Brael]

I'm not reluctant to play blue at all, I'm playing it right now on MTGO. Here's my list
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bug-nic-fit-3/

What I'm reluctant about is FoW and the cantrip cabal that enables it. I don't think it's a good addition to Nic Fit.

[Brael]

No idea if this is any good, but I've been thinking about an EDF list that can use a mixture of flash, azcanta, clues, and removal to play at instant speed. Currently at 62, I would like to either find a cut and make it 61, or add a 7th basic and another tracker and make it 64. 61 would be preferred.

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas

Creatures 19
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Pack Guardian
1 Cloudthresher
1 Elder Deep-Fiend

Spells 21
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Diabolic Edict

[Echelon]

General criteria:
1 - 6 mana or less
1 - Card advantage
1 - Can GSZ (optional?)

Combat:
1 - Beats Strix
Beats Angler
Beats TNN
Beats Griselbrand
1 - Beats Delver
1 - Beats Jace
1 - Beats Leovold
Beats Marit Lage
1 - Beats TKS
Beats Reality Smasher
1 - Beats DRS
1 - Beats Lingering Souls
1 - Beats Pyromancer
Beats Tarmogoyf

Resiliency
1 - Beats Fatal Push @2
1 - Beats Fatal Push @4
1 - Beats STP
Beats Bolt
1 - Beats Deed
1 - Beats Deluge
Beats Decay
Beats Pulse
Beats FoW
1 - Beats Spell Snare
1 - Beats Spell Pierce
1 - Beats Daze
1 - Beats Stifle
1 - Beats Terminus
1 - Beats Tabernacle
Beats Punishing Fire
1 - Beats Jitte
1 - Beats Chalice
1 - Beats Kommand
Beats Discard

Evasion:
Relevant protection
Evasion ability
1 - Goes wide

Great. The card list should be easy, as it's really just a collection of the highly played cards in the format. I think some website (mtgtop8?) even lists the top 100 or 150 cards by frequency.

Yeah, I'm just going to name the cards (or even mechanics) I'm missing. I'm swamped and my head hurts like a motherfucker.

Beats Storm
Beats Natural Order
Beats small creature strategies
Beats Show and Tell
Beats Liliana of the Veil
Beats Batterskull
Beats Life from the Loam (which sooner is the problem than Marit Lage)
Beats Emrakul
Beats Food Chain
Beats Trinisphere

[Brael]

Yeah, I'm just going to name the cards (or even mechanics) I'm missing. I'm swamped and my head hurts like a motherfucker.

Beats Storm
Beats Natural Order
Beats small creature strategies
Beats Show and Tell
Beats Liliana of the Veil
Beats Batterskull
Beats Life from the Loam (which sooner is the problem than Marit Lage)
Beats Emrakul
Beats Food Chain
Beats Trinisphere

I think you're mixing up beating strategies with beating cards. For example Storm would more likely be "Beats Echoing Truth" or "Beats Tendrils" or "Beats Empty the Warrens". Beating Natural Order is beating the cards they get like Progenitus or Craterhoof, a counterspell would be ranked on beating NO, a finisher would be ranked on beating what they get. Make sense?

[Valkyrie]

Sorry for asking again.
Any thoughts, feelings, suggestions or questions for my two lists from page 151?

So my preferred list currently looks:

Thanks in advance.

Deck: 4c - Nic Fit

//Beating Things
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Stoic Angel
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Voice of Resurgence

//Paying Things
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Windswept Heath

//Destroing Things
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Vindicate

//Valuing Things
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Lingering Souls
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Recurring Nightmare

//Sideboard
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge

Deckstatistik anzeigen

[Ricardio]

Yeah, I'm just going to name the cards (or even mechanics) I'm missing. I'm swamped and my head hurts like a motherfucker.

Beats Storm - teeg, eid of rhetoric/canonist, quicken tendril in resp to them tendril you?, mindbreak trap
Beats Natural Order - containtment priest, graf cage, moat, bridge
Beats small creature strategies - doomwake, ghostly prison, bridge, moat
Beats Show and Tell - containment priest, ashen rider cards,
Beats Liliana of the Veil - sigarda loh, obstinate baloth, bottled cloister
Beats Batterskull - rhino, grip, pulse, vindicate, Qpmage
Beats Life from the Loam (which sooner is the problem than Marit Lage) - surgical, ground seal, mystic enforcer, blood sun, blood moon
Beats Emrakul - baleful strix, sigarda loh, bridge, containment priest
Beats Food Chain - grip, decay, lost legcay/slaught game, eidolon of rhet/canonist,
Beats Trinisphere - grip, pulse, decay, draw lands, rhino costs 4 anyways, gsz cost 5 to get rhino anyways

[Brael]

Beats Storm - teeg, eid of rhetoric/canonist, quicken tendril in resp to them tendril you?, mindbreak trap
Beats Natural Order - containtment priest, graf cage, moat, bridge
Beats small creature strategies - doomwake, ghostly prison, bridge, moat
Beats Show and Tell - containment priest, ashen rider cards,
Beats Liliana of the Veil - sigarda loh, obstinate baloth, bottled cloister
Beats Batterskull - rhino, grip, pulse, vindicate, Qpmage
Beats Life from the Loam (which sooner is the problem than Marit Lage) - surgical, ground seal, mystic enforcer, blood sun, blood moon
Beats Emrakul - baleful strix, sigarda loh, bridge, containment priest
Beats Food Chain - grip, decay, lost legcay/slaught game, eidolon of rhet/canonist,
Beats Trinisphere - grip, pulse, decay, draw lands, rhino costs 4 anyways, gsz cost 5 to get rhino anyways

Looking for things in the other order. I'll post a matrix to fill in once we establish proper rules. It seems mtgtop8 lists the 653 most played cards in Legacy right now. Listed by percent of decks, and amounts contained. Tomorrow hopefully, I can cut that list down and put it into a spreadsheet. Meant to do it today, but work ran long.

So what I would need more than anything right now. Would be a list of possible Nic Fit finishers/mid level cards. And rules for card comparisons.

[Brael]

Sorry for asking again.
Any thoughts, feelings, suggestions or questions for my two lists from page 151?

So my preferred list currently looks:

Thanks in advance.

Deck: 4c - Nic Fit

//Beating Things
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Stoic Angel
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Voice of Resurgence

//Paying Things
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Windswept Heath

//Destroing Things
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Vindicate

//Valuing Things
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Lingering Souls
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Recurring Nightmare

//Sideboard
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge

Deckstatistik anzeigen

Seems clunky. Lots of expensive stuff, little cheap stuff, less than optimal ramping, no ability to interact with unfair decks.

[Echelon]

@Valkyrie: Your manabase is wildly unstable and there are a number of sub optimal and slow choices.

I'd cut the following (12):
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
2 Lingering Souls
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Karakas

In favor of:
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Verdant Catacombs
And a free slot. Not sure what to do with that yet. Maybe discard, maybe spotremoval, maybe a 4th DRS.

This way you at least get some more ramp and improve the stability of your manabase (and mana development) and consistency of your list. G1 vs. combo will still be abysmal though, but at least the list won't crap on itself anymore.

[Valkyrie]

Hey Folks,

and thx for your feedback, looks pretty tough.

Maybe a short explanation for some specific cards:
The current meta in Germany is flooded with delver, so Lingering Souls was an auto include for me, since the last tournament i played in december.
On the other hand, only a few decks can handle even flying creatures. But sigarda and dragonlord are too late to build up pressure here.
So Atraxa and Stoic Angel are pretty good 4cc Flyers in my opinion and Vigilance is underestimated in my eyes.

The 4 cards with a blue splash getting fixed with a least 4 blue mana sources. So far I have not really had any problems with mana fixing.
Karakas is against Emrakul or to save Sigarda, Atraxa...

I have to think about thats for a while, but a big thank you for your suggestions.

Greetings,

Mike

[Matsu]

Hey Folks,

and thx for your feedback, looks pretty tough.

Maybe a short explanation for some specific cards:
The current meta in Germany is flooded with delver, so Lingering Souls was an auto include for me, since the last tournament i played in december.
On the other hand, only a few decks can handle even flying creatures. But sigarda and dragonlord are too late to build up pressure here.
So Atraxa and Stoic Angel are pretty good 4cc Flyers in my opinion and Vigilance is underestimated in my eyes.

The 4 cards with a blue splash getting fixed with a least 4 blue mana sources. So far I have not really had any problems with mana fixing.
Karakas is against Emrakul or to save Sigarda, Atraxa...

I have to think about thats for a while, but a big thank you for your suggestions.

Greetings,

Mike

If your meta is flooded with Delver, it is good for you. You should have an 60% win ratio against Grixis Delver which will drop to 50% against Team America.

I posted my list a couple of pages ago. I play straight WBG in a meta with lots of Blade deck & 2 Grixis decks.

Here is my way to build Classic Nic Fit:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t=#post1030618

[Echelon]

@Matsu: By my experience, percentages vs. BUG & Grixis are the other way around. BUG is very hard to lose, Grixis (with Stifles, Fatal Push and a pilot used to the Nic Fit MU) can go down as far as 50/50 (and 60/40 postboard). I like how you stick to the mathematical side of deckbuilding, but I still tend to be a bit more stringent than that with my Junk list.

@Valkyrie: The key with Nic Fit is to be able to hold on for dear life during the early game, survive through that, stabilize and increasingly put pressure on your opponent. You can do that with Souls, but Tireless Tracker for instance plays much better w/ your removal and gameplan. It doesn't always die to Deed/Deluge and lets you draw those extra cards you need to bury your opponent. It being green and therefor GSZ-able is pretty big too.

[Matsu]

I found this interesting list top 8 a 30 players tournament in Japan. I am not a super fan of some cards, but those prosecutors and a minimal touch of white looks interesting.

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
4 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Golgari Charm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Choke
1 Sorcerous Spyglass

[Ricardio]

I found this interesting list top 8 a 30 players tournament in Japan. I am not a super fan of some cards, but those prosecutors and a minimal touch of white looks interesting.

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
4 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Golgari Charm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Choke
1 Sorcerous Spyglass

that list tickles my fancy, if you know what i mean
i would like more paths main and obviously the sideboard is meta dependant
wonderful find, Matsu

[Brael]

Going back to the idea I posted a few days ago, I used mtgtop8 data, to place the top 633 cards in Legacy. Then I scored each one by percent of decks it appears in * number in deck. I sorted that and then tagged the top 200 cards (I can do more if necessary) as either a Land, Spell (essentially, an enabler), Threat, or Answer from the perspective of our cards/finishers. Threat and Answer are the categories we're interested in here.

There were 41 answer cards in this list. So those are the 41 we can rank cards against as one measure of resiliency.
Force of Will
Daze
Lightning Bolt
Swords to Plowshares
Chalice of the Void
Cabal Therapy
Baleful Strix
Thoughtseize
Spell Pierce
Abrupt Decay
Fatal Push
Hymn to Tourach
Terminus
Umezawa's Jitte
Counterspell
Mother of Runes
Duress
Punishing Fire
Kolaghan's Command
Stifle
Flusterstorm
Blood Moon
Counterbalance
Dismember
Chain Lightning
Council's Judgment
Collective Brutality
Forked Bolt
Magus of the Moon
Pithing Needle
Fiery Confluence
All Is Dust
Bojuka Bog
Diabolic Edict
Toxic Deluge
Fireblast
Warping Wail
Inquisition of Kozilek
Rift Bolt
Spell Snare
Supreme Verdict

There were an additional 62 threats which we can use to rank our answer cards against for viability, or for our threats to beat.
Deathrite Shaman
Delver of Secrets
Snapcaster Mage
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
True-Name Nemesis
Stoneforge Mystic
Young Pyromancer
Tundra
Griselbrand
Thought-Knot Seer
Gurmag Angler
Dark Depths
Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Reality Smasher
Eldrazi Mimic
Matter Reshaper
Flickerwisp
Endless One
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Revoker
Chancellor of the Annex
Liliana of the Veil
Walking Ballista
Trinisphere
Knight of the Reliquary
Batterskull
Recruiter of the Guard
Endbringer
Dark Confidant
Monastery Mentor
Elvish Visionary
Wirewood Symbiote
Mirran Crusader
Sword of Fire and Ice
Nettle Sentinel
Monastery Swiftspear
Quirion Ranger
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Heritage Druid
Blighted Agent
Glistener Elf
Inkmoth Nexus
Invigorate
Liliana, the Last Hope
Bridge from Below
Golgari Grave-Troll
Narcomoeba
Stinkweed Imp
Oblivion Sower
Vendilion Clique
Sylvan Safekeeper
Nimble Mongoose
Golgari Thug
Veteran Explorer
Ichorid
Cursecatcher
Goblin Rabblemaster
Lord of Atlantis
Master of the Pearl Trident
Silvergill Adept
Street Wraith
Eidolon of the Great Revel
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Grim Lavamancer
Goblin Guide
Craterhoof Behemoth
Entreat the Angels

Combined this is 103 cards. That's pushing the limits for what we want as far as data entry goes, but it seems reasonable enough. The next step is to make a list of Nic Fit cards that we want to rank. For that, I'm going to use primer data, general deck knowledge, and stuff we've discussed in the past X pages (I'll basically go back until I get bored). I'm placing a limit of 75 cards on this as that's still going to result in A LOT of data entry (7,725 cells worth to be exact) that we can hopefully fill collaboratively.

Edit: Specifically excluded Nyx because it shares no cards with other variants so it would take too many slots. A Nyx player can do this for that specific variant if they want. Between the primer and the past 20 pages of this thread (which goes back several months, since so much discussion has moved to discord), there were 63 cards that fit either the threat or answer category.
Pernicious Deed
Toxic Deluge
Eternal Witness
Deathrite Shaman
Tireless Tracker
Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Atraxa, Praetor's Voice
Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Siege Rhino
Abrupt Decay
Thragtusk
Gaddock Teeg
Primeval Titan
Inferno Titan
Punishing Fire
Nissa, Vital Force
Baleful Strix
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Dragonlord Dromoka
Cabal Therapy
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of Light and Shadow
Sword of Fire and Ice
Vendilion Clique
Master of the Wild Hunt
Garruk Relentless
Kaya, Ghost Assassin
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Path to Exile
Vindicate
Dark Confidant
Courser of Kruphix
Obstinate Baloth
Scavenging Ooze
Thrun, the Last Troll
Chameleon Colossus
Karakas
Bojuka Bog
Diabolic Edict
Liliana, the Last Hope
Stoneforge Mystic
Batterskull
Swords to Plowshares
Pack Guardian
Huntmaster of the Fells
Cloudthresher
Elder Deep-Fiend
Emrakul, the Promised End
Maelstrom Pulse
Punishing Fire
Lightning Bolt
Collective Brutality
Nissa, Vastwood Seer
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Fatal Push
Liliana of the Veil
Glissa, the Traitor
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Carnage Tyrant
To the Slaughter
Regisaur Alpha
Scapeshift

Next step: Building rules to consistently compare one card to the other.

[Echelon]

That's going to be a LOT of data entry. Damn!

[Brael]

That's going to be a LOT of data entry. Damn!

Now you see why a side project of mine is to try and automate it.

There's some things that can be done to minimize it, but this is why consistent rules for rating cards against each other are needed.

[Kobra_D]

Hey Folks,

and thx for your feedback, looks pretty tough.

Maybe a short explanation for some specific cards:
The current meta in Germany is flooded with delver, so Lingering Souls was an auto include for me, since the last tournament i played in december.
On the other hand, only a few decks can handle even flying creatures. But sigarda and dragonlord are too late to build up pressure here.
So Atraxa and Stoic Angel are pretty good 4cc Flyers in my opinion and Vigilance is underestimated in my eyes.

The 4 cards with a blue splash getting fixed with a least 4 blue mana sources. So far I have not really had any problems with mana fixing.
Karakas is against Emrakul or to save Sigarda, Atraxa...

I have to think about thats for a while, but a big thank you for your suggestions.

Greetings,

Mike

I would actually suggest a slightly different direction. This deck might be more reasonable with glittering wish, a card that I always thought was cool but never got working.

You can keep a deed, and some of the larger clunky creatures in your board wish access through 2/3 wishes. That then opens up more slots for early interaction/disruption.

Plus, sometimes you end up facing burn and dromoka might be too slow, or you face storm and don't get teeg until g2/g3. It might be worth a consideration.

There was also a loam/dragonlord deck that had some results back in January 2017. I forgot who came up with the idea but it looked like a ton of fun in this 4c way.

@Brael Do you have the list of one of the older EDF builds? I can't seem to find it when you brought it up a few months ago and I am itching to try it.