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Thread: [Primer] Nic Fit

  1. #21

    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    There is no 2 CMC drop better than Tarmo, but Strangleroot Geist can be a very neat choice.
    I'll add that Geist has additional utility against planeswalkers due to the haste.

  2. #22

    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Great post. And a much needed update. Well done.

    Below is what I'm running, I've been very very pleased with Natural Order. As per the OP's quote, I think it's fitting: “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ― Friedrich Nietzsche

    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Natural Order
    3 Abrupt Decay
    3 Pernicious Deed
    2 Sensei's Divining Top
    2 Collective Brutality
    1 Liliana of the Vess

    4 Veteran Explorer
    3 Siege Rhino
    2 Deathrite Shaman
    1 Fauna Shaman
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
    1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
    1 Thragtusk
    1 Progenitus

    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Forest
    2 Swamp
    2 Plains
    2 Bayou
    2 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    1 Phyrexian Tower
    1 Dryad Arbor

    Sideboard:
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Choke
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    1 Garruk Relentless
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Toxic Deluge

    As you can see, the most recent change to the list is the addition of 2 Collective Brutality, 1 Liliana of the Vess and a Fauna Shaman. Collective Brutality is a great card that also lets you dump any drawn Progenitus (Liliana does this as well) or kill your own Veteran Explorer in a pinch and also lets you peek at your opponents hand to make sure any upcoming Cabal Therapies hit. Fauna Shaman is a solid card in it's own right but it's especially useful as a way of converting a Progenitus or excess Veteran Explorers drawn in your hand into a Siege Rhino and it can be tutored up with Zenith which offers the deck a number of ways to get rid of a Progenitus in hand without having to splash blue and play 4 Brainstorm.

    The build is meant to be hyper aggressive. Once it reaches 4 mana, it's game over for your opponent thanks to the unblock able, unkillable 10/10 coming for their face.
    Last edited by Captain Hammer; 01-18-2017 at 07:22 PM.

  3. #23

    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    I went down that road a few times (in some former posts).

    There is no 2 CMC drop better than Tarmo, but Strangleroot Geist can be a very neat choice.
    If you look for a beater against combo, I would pick up Geist in a heart beat:
    - Broken with Therapy (obviously)
    - Only fear STP
    - Better synergy with the rest of your deck
    - GG is painful sometimes (really).

    If you don't mind going to CMC 3, I'm a fan of KoTR if you can afford "W".
    The deck is just GB so no KoTR. I've considered geist but was concerned it's too tough to cast. I agree it's great when it works. I'll try it out. I'm a little concerned that 17 green sources isn't enough but I do like the openings it allows for. Perhaps I can convince myself that 17 is ok by accepting GSZ as making it a pseudo 21 sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by square_two View Post
    I'll add that Geist has additional utility against planeswalkers due to the haste.
    Haste is very good it's almost always relevant.

  4. #24
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Maybe Grim Flayer? He's become a staple in Modern Abzan.

    I don't think Tarmogoyf is a good fit - we're not really an aggro deck, there's no way to use Goyf as a utility card, it's a weird followup to Veteran Explorer, and it gets blown up by Deed.

    EDIT: I'd been meaning to mention this for the GB experiment - Caleb Durward was considering running a single Tasigur in GB Nic Fit when Tasigur was first spoiled. It's 'Goyf-like, can come down T2-3, and may even net some cards before he eats a Swords.

  5. #25

    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by gth842s View Post
    Maybe Grim Flayer? He's become a staple in Modern Abzan.

    I don't think Tarmogoyf is a good fit - we're not really an aggro deck, there's no way to use Goyf as a utility card, it's a weird followup to Veteran Explorer, and it gets blown up by Deed.

    EDIT: I'd been meaning to mention this for the GB experiment - Caleb Durward was considering running a single Tasigur in GB Nic Fit when Tasigur was first spoiled. It's 'Goyf-like, can come down T2-3, and may even net some cards before he eats a Swords.
    Grim Flayer will only be a 2/2 in my list until very late in the game. I'm more interested in getting something in the 3-4 power range early. Plus, in a format with DRS and a lot of Oozes I don't think Grim Flayer has a chance.

    The issue with Goyf as utility is that the utility I'm looking for is something low mana that hits my opponents hard. Being really good at hitting your opponent in the face is a very strong form of utility. I do like the Strangleroot Geist suggestion though, and I think I'm going to try it. Goyf is still in the running though. As far as getting blown up by Deed goes, I only run 1 Deed and up to 2 from the SB. If/when that's an issue, that's an easy swap to make. SE Fit is less reliant on Deed though because it's running more removal than usual and has A LOT of card draw to get additional removal. In order to really illustrate just how much draw/filtering SE has, I can regularly see half my deck (and have drawn a good portion of that) by turn 5 or 6. Which means that by turn 6 I generally see 5 removal spells out of the 10 in the list. That's effectively the ability to kill one creature of my opponents every single turn, which means I don't often need sweepers.

    Tasigur is an ok card, but again not what I'm looking for in SE. It plays bad with Bob, won't return anything good, and more importantly I can't use it to turn a GSZ into board presence which is important because my deck is currently light on ways to do that when mana is tight.

    Edit: Here's what I'm thinking right now:
    Land 22
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Windswept Heath
    3 Bayou
    5 Forest
    1 Swamp
    1 Dyrad Arbor
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Phyrexian Tower
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Bojuka Bog

    Creatures 18
    4 Veteran Explorer
    2 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Dark Confidant
    1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    1 Strangleroot Geist
    1 Courser of Kruphix
    1 Eternal Witness
    2 Tireless Tracker
    1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
    1 Chameleon Colossus

    Spells 16
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    2 Crop Rotation
    3 Abrupt Decay
    2 Diabolic Edict
    1 Pernicious Deed

    Artifact 2
    2 Sensei's Divining Top

    Planeswalker 3
    1 Garruk Wildspeaker
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    1 Nissa, Vital Force

    Sideboard 15
    1 Carpet of Flowers
    1 Crop Rotation
    3 Dark Depths
    2 Deathrite Shaman
    1 Karakas
    2 Lost Legacy
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    2 Thespian's Stage
    Last edited by Brael; 01-16-2017 at 07:09 PM.

  6. #26
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by gth842s View Post
    Maybe Grim Flayer? He's become a staple in Modern Abzan.

    I don't think Tarmogoyf is a good fit - we're not really an aggro deck, there's no way to use Goyf as a utility card, it's a weird followup to Veteran Explorer, and it gets blown up by Deed.

    EDIT: I'd been meaning to mention this for the GB experiment - Caleb Durward was considering running a single Tasigur in GB Nic Fit when Tasigur was first spoiled. It's 'Goyf-like, can come down T2-3, and may even net some cards before he eats a Swords.
    I was also thinking about Grim Flayer today. He has been amazing in DeadGuy when I got to attack with him. Nic-fit is more BG so he will be eaier to cast. He can bring value from triggers and can be a 4/4 for two later in the game. Put Cabal in the graveyard to flashback. Puts cretures for Meren.

    There is a alot it can do in nicfit. We have diffrent card types to get delierum as well.

    I think I want build it like this:



    // 60 Maindeck
    // 3 Artifact
    3 Sensei's Divining Top

    // 19 Creature
    1 Dryad Arbor
    4 Veteran Explorer
    3 Deathrite Shaman
    1 Qasali Pridemage
    1 Grim Flayer
    1 Courser of Kruphix
    2 Tireless Tracker
    1 Eternal Witness
    3 Siege Rhino
    1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
    1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

    // 4 Enchantment
    3 Pernicious Deed
    1 Sylvan Library

    // 3 Instant
    3 Path to Exile

    // 21 Land
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Windswept Heath
    2 Marsh Flats
    1 Bayou
    1 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    2 Forest
    2 Swamp
    2 Plains
    2 Phyrexian Tower

    // 1 Planeswalker
    1 Nissa, Vital Force

    // 9 Sorcery
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    1 Maelstrom Pulse


    // 15 Sideboard

    SB: 1 Pithing Needle
    SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
    SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
    SB: 1 Choke
    SB: 2 Golgari Charm
    SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 1 Ooze
    SB: 1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
    SB: 3 Lost Legacy
    SB: 2 Duress

  7. #27

    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Other than lands and creatures, you have :

    No artifacts that regularly hit the yard
    Only one sorcery that's often in the yard
    3 Instants
    4 Enchantments

    Only 7 ways of killing Deathrite, none of which you want to be using on him

    You need more stuff that actually enables Delirium if you want Grim Flayer to not be garbage.

  8. #28
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Glad you didn't link my match vs Sam Black. Oh, the punts.

  9. #29
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    Grim Flayer will only be a 2/2 in my list until very late in the game. I'm more interested in getting something in the 3-4 power range early. Plus, in a format with DRS and a lot of Oozes I don't think Grim Flayer has a chance.

    The issue with Goyf as utility is that the utility I'm looking for is something low mana that hits my opponents hard. Being really good at hitting your opponent in the face is a very strong form of utility. I do like the Strangleroot Geist suggestion though, and I think I'm going to try it. Goyf is still in the running though. As far as getting blown up by Deed goes, I only run 1 Deed and up to 2 from the SB. If/when that's an issue, that's an easy swap to make. SE Fit is less reliant on Deed though because it's running more removal than usual and has A LOT of card draw to get additional removal. In order to really illustrate just how much draw/filtering SE has, I can regularly see half my deck (and have drawn a good portion of that) by turn 5 or 6. Which means that by turn 6 I generally see 5 removal spells out of the 10 in the list. That's effectively the ability to kill one creature of my opponents every single turn, which means I don't often need sweepers.

    Tasigur is an ok card, but again not what I'm looking for in SE. It plays bad with Bob, won't return anything good, and more importantly I can't use it to turn a GSZ into board presence which is important because my deck is currently light on ways to do that when mana is tight.

    Edit: Here's what I'm thinking right now:
    Land 22
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Windswept Heath
    3 Bayou
    5 Forest
    1 Swamp
    1 Dyrad Arbor
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Phyrexian Tower
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Bojuka Bog

    Creatures 18
    4 Veteran Explorer
    2 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Dark Confidant
    1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    1 Strangleroot Geist
    1 Courser of Kruphix
    1 Eternal Witness
    2 Tireless Tracker
    1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
    1 Chameleon Colossus

    Spells 16
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    2 Crop Rotation
    3 Abrupt Decay
    2 Diabolic Edict
    1 Pernicious Deed

    Artifact 2
    2 Sensei's Divining Top

    Planeswalker 3
    1 Garruk Wildspeaker
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    1 Nissa, Vital Force

    Sideboard 15
    1 Carpet of Flowers
    1 Crop Rotation
    3 Dark Depths
    2 Deathrite Shaman
    1 Karakas
    2 Lost Legacy
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    2 Thespian's Stage
    Could you explain your rationale behind removing so much of Nic Fit's card advantage and card quality in this build? I'm not really sure I understand what it's trying to accomplish compared to Rhino / 4C Fit (Midrange Goodness), Sneaky Fit (Combo-Control), Nyx Fit (Control) or what matchups you're trying to improve. Why run the Vet/Therapy combo at all alongside point removal and such a low curve?

  10. #30

    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Nice work. Since it's a primer, consider making the cards show themselves--e.g.: Pernicious Deed.

  11. #31

    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Awesome update! Glad to see Nyx Fit getting a spot on the main primer too.

  12. #32

    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by gth842s View Post
    Could you explain your rationale behind removing so much of Nic Fit's card advantage and card quality in this build? I'm not really sure I understand what it's trying to accomplish compared to Rhino / 4C Fit (Midrange Goodness), Sneaky Fit (Combo-Control), Nyx Fit (Control) or what matchups you're trying to improve. Why run the Vet/Therapy combo at all alongside point removal and such a low curve?
    I don't remove any card advantage, I add more of it. 26 slots in the deck are capable of providing either CA or CQ, compare that with something like rhinos which has 16 slots devoted to the same thing.

    For the other part of your question, it fixes the ramp problem. Ordinarily with ramp decks, if you don't ramp up to whatever you need, your deck simply doesn't work. My experience with Legacy is that there's too much land hate to reliably ramp, and even the most consistent ramp strategies still have a bit of inconsistency in getting their mana. STP for Vet, Wastelands, Chalice OTP, so instead, I still want to use ramp but I don't want to be locked out of my deck when it's not working. So I play lower to the ground cards with a lot of CA and other mana sinks. This lets me use ramp mana effectively, and keep cards flowing. Basically, rather than do 1 strong thing a turn like play a Rhino I'm able to do 2-3 moderately powerful things a turn and maintain strong tempo. My opponents can only answer maybe 1 thing/turn so they eventually get overwhelmed.

    Basically, it's using ramp to take a go wide approach rather than a go tall one. The builds not for everyone, lots of people play Nic Fit in order to cast big creatures, but the more consistent decks don't actually do that.

  13. #33
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    I don't remove any card advantage, I add more of it. 26 slots in the deck are capable of providing either CA or CQ, compare that with something like rhinos which has 16 slots devoted to the same thing.

    For the other part of your question, it fixes the ramp problem. Ordinarily with ramp decks, if you don't ramp up to whatever you need, your deck simply doesn't work. My experience with Legacy is that there's too much land hate to reliably ramp, and even the most consistent ramp strategies still have a bit of inconsistency in getting their mana. STP for Vet, Wastelands, Chalice OTP, so instead, I still want to use ramp but I don't want to be locked out of my deck when it's not working. So I play lower to the ground cards with a lot of CA and other mana sinks. This lets me use ramp mana effectively, and keep cards flowing. Basically, rather than do 1 strong thing a turn like play a Rhino I'm able to do 2-3 moderately powerful things a turn and maintain strong tempo. My opponents can only answer maybe 1 thing/turn so they eventually get overwhelmed.

    Basically, it's using ramp to take a go wide approach rather than a go tall one. The builds not for everyone, lots of people play Nic Fit in order to cast big creatures, but the more consistent decks don't actually do that.
    I like the eye towards consistency and resiliency in your deck construction, for sure, but I guess I just disagree about the idea of running ramp alongside low impact cards and situational / virtual card advantage.

    I play Nic Fit to have a grindy but explosive control deck with access to cards that are just better on an average card basis than anything my opponents can play. I'm also probably one of the more consistent skeptics on here when it comes to 4-rhino as a winning strategy. If I can survive to the mid-late game, I should be able to outclass anything my opponents are doing, but that requires a versatile toolbox supported by a ton of removal and a powerful late-game plan. The only time I want to be faster is when survival dictates disruption followed by a quick kill (combo decks, mostly).

    In short, I don't advocate for going tall. I advocate for going long.

    In any case, I hope you do extremely well with it. I just would like to see a GB Fit more like this (this is a very quick sketch):

    4 Vet, 4 Therapy, 4 GSZ, 3 Deed, 3 SDT 3 Hymn
    3 Decay, 1 Crop Rotation
    2 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Garruk Relentless, 2 Nissa
    1 Scooze, 2 Tracker, 1 Witness, 1 Meren, 1 Thragtusk, 1 Primeval Titan, 1 Grave Titan
    4 Verdant Catacombs, 2 Windswept Heath, 2 Marsh Flats, 3 Bayou, 4 Forest, 3 Swamp,
    1 Phyrexian Tower, 1 Volrath's Stronghold, 1 Dark Depths, 1 Thespian's Stage

    I'm having too much with Sneak Fit right now to try it out, though.

  14. #34
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    The builds not for everyone, lots of people play Nic Fit in order to cast big creatures, but the more consistent decks don't actually do that.
    The 21 land/10 fetch manabase allows you to quite easily dump all your 6 basics on the field and with the curve topping @5 you can GSZ for whatever you need. Very few games go by where I don't end up with at least those 6 lands on the field (excluding stuff like Storm, obviously). But the catch there is that you must fetch for basics and keep your duals for emergencies only. Getting one or more duals Wasted is one of the things that kill you.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  15. #35
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Navsi View Post
    Other than lands and creatures, you have :

    No artifacts that regularly hit the yard
    Only one sorcery that's often in the yard
    3 Instants
    4 Enchantments

    Only 7 ways of killing Deathrite, none of which you want to be using on him

    You need more stuff that actually enables Delirium if you want Grim Flayer to not be garbage.
    You forgot 3 artifakt, the Top.

  16. #36

    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Would not mind adding my input for the various walkers and their relative power in the various variants.

    Nissa Vital Force (Best in Class)
    The best walker in Nic Fit for all builds imho. Pressures JTMS and kills opposing Liliana of the Veils.
    - 5/5 Trampling Creature land is fantastic as it dodges Abrupt Decay which is currently the most played removal atm, trades with Gurmag Angler and Reality Smasher & tramples over TNNs
    - Regrowth ability is fantastic especially so when it brings back deed over and over again
    - Emblems very quickly in 2 turns and the CA produced makes Shardless Variants cannot keep up with our CA even via visions

    Garruk Relentless
    The best walker vs Tempo decks or anything that wins with small critters like Elf & DnT. Also pressures Miracles abeit slower than Nissa Vital Force. SB option since it is bad vs Eldrazi
    - Fight ability very good vs critters
    - 2/2 Wolf for grindy fun
    - Flip side has the awesome ability to tutor for a creature while triggering Explorers

    Elspeth KR, Elspeth Sun Champion & Gideon Ally of Zen
    Best vs Eldrazi, Medicore vs the rest hence usually a SB option
    - Sun Champ floods the board while the other 2 clocks opponents down very quickly

    Liliana the Last Hope
    Good vs Critter decks and Miracles. Exclusively used in Atraxa & Leovold 4c builds.
    - Does exactly what she do in Standard now which is picking off critters dead such as DnT critters and YP and makes Insectile Abberation a limpy 1/1
    - Rebuys dead creatures to pressure opposing removal
    - Ultimates regularly vs Miracles

  17. #37
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganfar View Post
    You forgot 3 artifakt, the Top.
    If the top hit GY early, either countered or discarded, usually our tactics has already failed.

    Flayer/Bob/Goyf or other "2CMC value guy are not garbage; however, they need a more aggro-ish version of NicFit to be reasonable. If a list have max(3) copies of Deed in it, it cannot pretend to be an "aggro version".
    I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest.

  18. #38

    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by fireiced View Post
    Liliana the Last Hope
    Good vs Critter decks and Miracles. Exclusively used in Atraxa & Leovold 4c builds.
    - Does exactly what she do in Standard now which is picking off critters dead such as DnT critters and YP and makes Insectile Abberation a limpy 1/1
    - Rebuys dead creatures to pressure opposing removal
    - Ultimates regularly vs Miracles
    Liliana has also seen a bit of use elsewhere. I've played her in Sneak and Abzan Stoneblade.
    She's particularly good against DnT, since her +1 kills a ton of the deck. I'd rather have Liliana than Garruk in that Matchups (or Elves) since costing one less mana is a really important difference.

  19. #39
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by fireiced View Post
    Would not mind adding my input for the various walkers and their relative power in the various variants.

    Nissa Vital Force (Best in Class)
    The best walker in Nic Fit for all builds imho. Pressures JTMS and kills opposing Liliana of the Veils.
    - 5/5 Trampling Creature land is fantastic as it dodges Abrupt Decay which is currently the most played removal atm, trades with Gurmag Angler and Reality Smasher & tramples over TNNs
    - Regrowth ability is fantastic especially so when it brings back deed over and over again
    - Emblems very quickly in 2 turns and the CA produced makes Shardless Variants cannot keep up with our CA even via visions

    Garruk Relentless
    The best walker vs Tempo decks or anything that wins with small critters like Elf & DnT. Also pressures Miracles abeit slower than Nissa Vital Force. SB option since it is bad vs Eldrazi
    - Fight ability very good vs critters
    - 2/2 Wolf for grindy fun
    - Flip side has the awesome ability to tutor for a creature while triggering Explorers

    Elspeth KR, Elspeth Sun Champion & Gideon Ally of Zen
    Best vs Eldrazi, Medicore vs the rest hence usually a SB option
    - Sun Champ floods the board while the other 2 clocks opponents down very quickly

    Liliana the Last Hope
    Good vs Critter decks and Miracles. Exclusively used in Atraxa & Leovold 4c builds.
    - Does exactly what she do in Standard now which is picking off critters dead such as DnT critters and YP and makes Insectile Abberation a limpy 1/1
    - Rebuys dead creatures to pressure opposing removal
    - Ultimates regularly vs Miracles
    Nice analysis. But as I see it eldrazi is a good matchup so I'd rather run Garruk Relentless maindeck. I'm thinking of running Ajani Unyielding in the sideboard instead of Nissa.

  20. #40
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokugawa View Post
    If the top hit GY early, either countered or discarded, usually our tactics has already failed.

    Flayer/Bob/Goyf or other "2CMC value guy are not garbage; however, they need a more aggro-ish version of NicFit to be reasonable. If a list have max(3) copies of Deed in it, it cannot pretend to be an "aggro version".
    So you mean that if they discard our top in turn 1, there is only downhill afterwards. And that's way we can't play Grim Flayer? Ofc the oppment will interact with us and we get cards in the graveyard.

    It's not about get Grim Flayer as 4/4 soon as possible, it's about Grim Flayer can help us dig for the cards we want. Have you ever top and seen land, explore and another top that you don't want? Yes ofc you have. Grim Flayer will dump all three cards in the graveyard and become bigger. He doesn't need to be 4/4 on turn 2 or 3, he becomes bigger later like Gofy.

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