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Thread: [Primer] Nic Fit

  1. #61

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    NO has a couple of positives.

    - Doesn't force you into red
    - Combos with more cards (~17 Green creatures + 4 Zeniths, rather than ~4 sources of Emrakul + 4 Zeniths)
    - Elderscale is a safer plan than Emrakul against Dredge and Burn
    - Potentially uncounterable with Boseiju + Cavern of Souls

    Disadvantages:
    - 2 for 1 yourself if you get countered or Progenitus is removed
    - Slow clock, can't reasonably expect to race combo
    - Vulnerable to more removal (Edicts, Council's Judgment, sweepers)
    - Gives opponent chance to untap and either kill you or answer Progenitus, rather than killing them before they can react
    - Worse hardcast late game plan due to colour requirements - not as easily enabled by Carpet of Flowers against Miracles
    - Potential to leave you with dead cards in hand
    - Need to resolve two spells (Creature, NO) rather than just one (Sneak).

    IMO the benefits of Sneak are way more relevant, but if you want to play a combo deck in BUG colours I don't think there are many other options that fit in Nic Fit so I suppose NO is the way to go.

  2. #62
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Navsi View Post
    NO has a couple of positives.

    - Doesn't force you into red
    - Combos with more cards (~17 Green creatures + 4 Zeniths, rather than ~4 sources of Emrakul + 4 Zeniths)
    - Elderscale is a safer plan than Emrakul against Dredge and Burn
    - Potentially uncounterable with Boseiju + Cavern of Souls

    Disadvantages:
    - 2 for 1 yourself if you get countered or Progenitus is removed
    - Slow clock, can't reasonably expect to race combo
    - Vulnerable to more removal (Edicts, Council's Judgment, sweepers)
    - Gives opponent chance to untap and either kill you or answer Progenitus, rather than killing them before they can react
    - Worse hardcast late game plan due to colour requirements - not as easily enabled by Carpet of Flowers against Miracles
    - Potential to leave you with dead cards in hand

    IMO the benefits of Sneak are way more relevant, but if you want to play a combo deck in BUG colours I don't think there are many other options that fit in Nic Fit so I suppose NO is the way to go.
    Food chain is usually "pure" BUG. Aluren is a BUG based deck with splash(e.g R for Imperial Recruiter). If a player want to play a combo BUG deck,he...

    Once NO/Progenitus decks(e.g. NO RUG, NO Bant) were dominating decks, "DTB of DTBs", a long time ago. But past glory is passed, cards like Grisel/Terminus/LotV... were printed. Progenitus is not the ideal candidate for "cheat a big boss into play" any more. Such decks declined and declined, even their name tag(decks which usually treated as out-of-date decks, like Cephalid Breakfast or Hypergenesis, could still have their tag on TCdecks and thesource) were also eliminated today. I think something could be learn from the history.
    I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest.

  3. #63

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokugawa View Post
    Food chain is usually "pure" BUG. Aluren is a BUG based deck with splash(e.g R for Imperial Recruiter). If a player want to play a combo BUG deck,he...

    Once NO/Progenitus decks(e.g. NO RUG, NO Bant) were dominating decks, "DTB of DTBs", a long time ago. But past glory is passed, cards like Grisel/Terminus/LotV... were printed. Progenitus is not the ideal candidate for "cheat a big boss into play" any more. Such decks declined and declined, even their name tag(decks which usually treated as out-of-date decks, like Cephalid Breakfast or Hypergenesis, could still have their tag on TCdecks and thesource) were also eliminated today. I think something could be learn from the history.
    I was referring to combos which could work in Nic Fit, but I guess you could probably fit either combo in the deck without skewing things too much.

    Speaking of incorporating combos into BUG builds, I just put this together:

    4 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Bayou
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Island
    2 Forest
    1 Swamp
    1 Phyrexian Tower
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Inventors' Fair

    3 Veteran Explorer
    1 Deathrite Shaman
    3 Baleful Strix
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    2 Tireless Tracker

    2 Nissa, Vital Force
    2 Tezzeret the Seeker

    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Green Sun's Zenith
    2 Whir of Invention
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Maelstrom Pulse

    1 Pernicious Deed

    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    2 Thopter Foundry
    2 Sword of the Meek
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Executioner's Capsule
    1 Engineered Explosives

    Sideboard:
    1 Glissa, the Traitor
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Golgari Charm
    2 Lost Legacy
    3 Leyline of the Void
    3 Thoughtseize

  4. #64
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Food Chain is actually just BUG now -- they run Glint-Nest Crane instead of Recruiters.

  5. #65

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    Food Chain is actually just BUG now -- they run Glint-Nest Crane instead of Recruiters.
    You mean alluren.


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  6. #66
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    You mean alluren.


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    Errr, yeah. Correct. Sorry, I have a bad head cold and it's fucking with me, lol

  7. #67
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    I just played against a really interesting BUG build with strix, tireless tracker, wasteland, courser, and traverse the ulvenwald. Anyone seen a similar list out there?

  8. #68

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    It's been tried a few times but never worked out very well sadly.
    Traverse would have to replace Zenith or it eats into the actual gas slots in the deck - we can't afford to run a lot of tutors because we also need slots for interaction and for our tutor targets.
    This means that we lose out on early game consistency because we have a lot lower odds of finding an Explorer on the first couple of turns to ramp with. That means we need to lower the curve because we don't go off with our ramp effects as reliably.
    The deck certainly uses Strix and Tracker very well and it it probably good at getting work out of Grave Titan in the late game, but it has issues reaching the late game in a reasonable amount of time and it has some some trouble interacting with faster decks because it's game plan isn't particularly good at applying early pressure.

    It's close to being good though. I could see a 4 Explorer 4 Deathrite build doing okay with Traverse since you don't need to Zenith an Explorer so much, but at the same time eating your graveyard with DRS is a little awkward for enabling Delirium - to get there reliably you'd need a lot of artifacts, enchantments and planeswalkers that are happy to go to the graveyard because they at least can't be stripped out by Deathrite Shaman as easily.

  9. #69
    MTGO name: Aggro4Life

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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Maybe a Traverse deck runs more stuff like multiple Lili LH and more Towers? Certainly 3-4 Deeds I would think. If BUG, maybe Ashiok as a threat that easily gets binned quickly? Perilous Research also bins types we like (any of them-ish)

  10. #70

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Played my list again this week, 4 rounds. Exact sa

    Same matchups as last week, Elves, ANT (previously thought it was TPS), Omnitell, Manaless Dredge.

    Didn't do as well this week. Beat Omnitell and ANT. Lost to Manaless again because I was too lazy to add the Bojuka Bog (though it probably wouldn't have mattered, they actually FoW'ed my Crop Rotation), and I'm something like 0-10 against Elves now... pretty sure Order Elves is unwinnable.

    So far my thoughts haven't changed, I do wish the Elves matchup were better, cutting down on Deeds so far makes that match pretty bad as a side effect. But, I can't have everything. Still feel like my GB is a pretty good deck when you expect to see anything. You're good against many combo matches, have great fair games, and are good against Miracles. Some stuff, you're just not going to beat though.

  11. #71
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Navsi View Post
    It's been tried a few times but never worked out very well sadly.
    Traverse would have to replace Zenith or it eats into the actual gas slots in the deck - we can't afford to run a lot of tutors because we also need slots for interaction and for our tutor targets.
    This means that we lose out on early game consistency because we have a lot lower odds of finding an Explorer on the first couple of turns to ramp with. That means we need to lower the curve because we don't go off with our ramp effects as reliably.
    The deck certainly uses Strix and Tracker very well and it it probably good at getting work out of Grave Titan in the late game, but it has issues reaching the late game in a reasonable amount of time and it has some some trouble interacting with faster decks because it's game plan isn't particularly good at applying early pressure.

    It's close to being good though. I could see a 4 Explorer 4 Deathrite build doing okay with Traverse since you don't need to Zenith an Explorer so much, but at the same time eating your graveyard with DRS is a little awkward for enabling Delirium - to get there reliably you'd need a lot of artifacts, enchantments and planeswalkers that are happy to go to the graveyard because they at least can't be stripped out by Deathrite Shaman as easily.
    He had GSZ too. In fact he GSZ'd for explorer. I didn't see any other "utility" lands besides Wasteland. Courser & Strix seemed to do a good job at giving him multiple card types for delirium. I imagine Fatal Push would be a boon for this kind of deck. I don't think he had Top though, I didn't see one in three games (though he did have Brainstorm.)

    I imagine this kind of deck would cut down on Explorers and use DRS for more ramp and then get more value out of late explorers via GSZ by using Tireless Trackers. I should've asked for his list but I still don't know how to use MTGO haha.

  12. #72
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    @Brael: Do you run Golgari Charms in your SB? And what does your SB look like? Manaless isn't that hard to beat when you know what you're doing .
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  13. #73
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Do you guys think Nissa, Vital Force is better than Garruk, Primal Hunter in a straight 'ol GB list? This is my list, for reference. Would you play Nissa or Garruk Primal Hunter here?

    Lands (22)

    4 Forest
    4 Swamp
    4 Bayou
    3 Misty Rainforest
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Phyrexian Tower
    2 Treetop Village

    Creatures (14)

    4 Veteran Explorer
    2 Deathrite Shaman
    2 Scavenging Ooze
    2 Eternal Witness
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Thrun, the Last Troll
    1 Thragtusk
    1 Primeval Titan

    Spells (22)

    3 Pernicious Deed
    2 Maelstrom Pulse
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Thoughtseize
    4 Green Sun’s Zenith
    3 Sensei’s Divining Top
    4 Abrupt Decay

    Walkers (2)

    2 Nissa, Vital Force OR Garruk, Primal Hunter

  14. #74

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    ...could you play one of each so they can both be in play at the same time?
    That said you can chain Nissas, so two of her in hand isn't bad.
    Junk and Stoned Rhinos.

  15. #75
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    [Primer] Nic Fit

    With nissa you can make a quick emblem (-->win against non combo decks) and then regrow her with the second copy of nissa. This is so powerful.
    Garruk is strong, but not as much as (the second) nissa. She is that good.
    I have also been questioning the real purpose of any garruk in the deck. Of course he is good but doesn't threaten any meaningful ultimate and he is slow. Against non miracles deck I'd play just another 5-6 cmc bomb instead. Against miracles I am finding the 2-2 split between nissa and big Sorin very strong.
    Vindicate a 3-6 loyalty jace with sorin, regrow him with nissa. That happened a non insignificant number of times and it's such a strong combination of cards, even if they aren't in your hand together you can chain them due to their card draw capabilities.
    I really suggest all the 8🦏 players to try the two nissa in the main 2 big sorins in the side configuration.

  16. #76

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    I also am recommending 2x Nissa VF in the main. Gal does some real work, I have a very hard time thinking of a situation where i'm not happy to see her in hand. I've got probably around 25 matches in with 2x main in my sneak list but so far seems great.

    Miracles game 1 feels better. Last night I was against the new bug Leovold list and a single Nissa saved me - provided extra protection due to a Deed in the yard, caused 15 damage, and stabilized a board presence by returning E Witness which returned DRS. I can't think of any other singular card that can do so much.

    (If that list continues to pick up steam, then I'll probably adjust my sideboard with 2x Golgari Charm, removing a Pyroclasm. I'm currently on 2 Pyroclasm 1 Golgari Charm. The charm is also handy against some number of increased Omnishow which I've been seeing more of online. I also swapped the Slaughter Games for 2 Lost Legacy but haven't seen them come up much so far.)

  17. #77

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    @Brael: Do you run Golgari Charms in your SB? And what does your SB look like? Manaless isn't that hard to beat when you know what you're doing .
    No Charms, I can't find room.

    The issue primarily comes down to a lack of hate, DRS is too slow and I forgot to add the Bojuka Bog MB like we were talking about a few days ago. Mostly because I haven't settled on a new 2 drop yet. I was watching for situations where Geist would have been useful today and there were several
    Without having hate there's just not much you can do when they go
    T1 discard Phantasmagorian, discard 3 dredgers
    T2 dredge 6, hit 2 amalgams and a narcomoeba
    T3 Dredge more, then Force of Will your Crop Rotation

    I just need faster hate is all. Even had a game (g1, won the roll, chose to draw, mull to 5) where I had a blind Cabal Therapy, hit a card, then Vet/Therapy, hit a card, another Therapy, hit a card, and landed a DRS. I still lost that game because the DRS was my only real action and the Therapys didn't do enough.

    I think that what I'm going to do in the MD to help combat the unfair meta we've currently got at my shop is -1 Scavenging Ooze, -1 Liliana, the Last Hope, +1 Bojuka Bog, +1 Strangleroot Geist.

    That ends up making Elves even worse for me but that's probably ok.

    Here's the list after those changes.
    Land 23
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Windswept Heath
    3 Bayou
    5 Forest
    2 Swamp
    1 Dryad Arbor
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Phyrexian Tower
    1 Maze of Ith

    Creatures 18
    4 Veteran Explorer
    2 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Dark Confidant
    1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    1 Strangleroot Geist
    2 Tireless Tracker
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Courser of Kruphix
    1 Chameleon Colossus
    1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

    Spells 18
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    2 Crop Rotation
    2 Sensei's Divining Top
    3 Abrupt Decay
    2 Diabolic Edict
    1 Pernicious Deed

    Planeswalkers 2
    1 Garruk Wildspeaker
    1 Nissa, Vital Force

    Sideboard 15
    3 Dark Depths
    2 Thespian's Stage
    1 Karakas
    1 Crop Rotation
    2 Deathrite Shaman
    2 Lost Legacy
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Carpet of Flowers

    Quote Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu View Post
    Do you guys think Nissa, Vital Force is better than Garruk, Primal Hunter in a straight 'ol GB list? This is my list, for reference. Would you play Nissa or Garruk Primal Hunter here?
    Nissa is stronger than Garruk. I would recommend the split, but if you don't want to do that, play 2 Nissa.
    Last edited by Brael; 01-20-2017 at 12:19 PM.

  18. #78

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by square_two View Post
    I also am recommending 2x Nissa VF in the main. Gal does some real work, I have a very hard time thinking of a situation where i'm not happy to see her in hand. I've got probably around 25 matches in with 2x main in my sneak list but so far seems great.
    I'm also leaning in this direction. Garruk does some work at times, but Nissa is stronger overall.

  19. #79

    Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by arj View Post
    Nice analysis. But as I see it eldrazi is a good matchup so I'd rather run Garruk Relentless maindeck. I'm thinking of running Ajani Unyielding in the sideboard instead of Nissa.
    I guess it boils down to playstyle and your deck configuration. Regrowth on Nissa is bonkers imho

  20. #80

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Anyone have a chance to test out Chandra, Torch of Defiance lately? Can't remember any consensus on her. She can damage walkers (though only 2 at a time), give some slight card advantage, ramp 2 mana, remove low toughness annoying critters, and her ult does win the game quickly (especially since we have 3 Tops). I'd like to get my hands on one but she is a tad pricey right now. I think if I tried to add her in Sneak, then I'd also want to bring back Primeval Titan to the main because Chandra's +1 mana could allow for a small boost to GSZ power. She doesn't seem nearly as powerful as Nissa but the ramp is intriguing.

    Maybe something close to this.

    4 Veteran Explorer
    1 Deathrite Shaman
    1 Sakura-Tribe Elder // 2nd Deathrite Shaman?
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Fierce Empath
    1 Tireless Tracker
    1 Thragtusk
    1 Primeval Titan
    1 Inferno Titan
    1 Woodland Bellower
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Green Sun's Zenith

    2 Lightning Bolt
    3 Abrupt Decay

    4 Sneak Attack
    3 Pernicious Deed

    3 Sensei's Divining Top

    1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
    1 Nissa, Vital Force

    Also - is Sakura-Tribe Elder subpar if you are not running Meren? Wonder if that really should be a 2nd Deathrite in my list. I love the extra basic but I love a turn 1 DRS even more.

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