[Primer] Nic Fit

[Brael]

So in a typical rhino list. I'm between adding truths vs library. In general I think SL is much better but in Nic Fit running SL with deed is awkward. Would it be reasonable to switch to Toxic Deluge in a SL list? That's a lot of life loss but Rhino has many ways to gain life. Maybe a split of truths/library and a split of deed and deluge?

Not sure

I'll try to get you a list of lifegain creatures later. Some of my experiments with Bob have revolved entirely around cards that gain life. There's actually quite a few formidible ones out there. Scavenging Ooze, Kitchen Finks, Siege Rhino, it's definitely possible to string all of these cards together alongside Library.

Remember, it's OK to blow up your Library. Even if all you get out of it is one instance of topdeck manipulation and a 2 for 1, you got value out of it. More value than a SDT gives even. Alternatively, you could go to a build like mine that plays fewer Deeds.

Oh, don't get cocky about Miracles. They're still going to be a deck, and they still have Brainstorm+Jace to set up Terminus. You'll still need Lost Legacy against them to stop board wipes.

[Luthiereisfun]

I'll try to get you a list of lifegain creatures later. Some of my experiments with Bob have revolved entirely around cards that gain life. There's actually quite a few formidible ones out there. Scavenging Ooze, Kitchen Finks, Siege Rhino, it's definitely possible to string all of these cards together alongside Library.

Remember, it's OK to blow up your Library. Even if all you get out of it is one instance of topdeck manipulation and a 2 for 1, you got value out of it. More value than a SDT gives even. Alternatively, you could go to a build like mine that plays fewer Deeds.

Oh, don't get cocky about Miracles. They're still going to be a deck, and they still have Brainstorm+Jace to set up Terminus. You'll still need Lost Legacy against them to stop board wipes.

Junk SE fit definitely interests me more now. TBH I don't see Terminus being played. Engineered explosives and Verdict seem much better and what control decks will play as sweepers now imo. I like lost legacy still. Good against combo.

[Brael]

I'm thinking of playing legacy again with Nic Fit, have I missed anything since I was gone?

But yea, this seems like good news for us, opens up the format's room for more control decks, aka us

Makes combo stronger... but delver will still be around and we can stop focusing so much deck/sideboard space on miracles and even more on combo

Lots. Sneak Fit is a thing now, it's pretty popular. Nyx Fit (an enchantment build) is really cool and also popular. I'm doing my own thing with various BG and BGw builds based on the SE stuff we played around with last year.

The deck is doing better than ever. I suspect a UW control deck will remain in the format, but combo is going to gain metashare. Overall, probably a slight negative for us with potential spikes to huge positives when combo is hated out.

[Arianrhod]

Quick reaction:

1) to get this out of the way, Top was completely incorrect of a ban in my opinion. Terminus or Counterbalance were both much better options with less collateral damage. The Top ban was primarily championed by idiots with loudspeakers who should not be permitted to have any amount of weight lent to their opinions, because they don't understand the far-reaching consequences of the actions then endorse. This is roughly analogous to the Lodestone restriction in Vintage, IMO -- championed by the vocal minority, but which had poor consequences for the format (should've been Thorn of Amethyst).

2) regardless, this is the world we need to either choose to live in, or opt to not play anymore, so I will not be discussing my opinion on the ban further. If you wanted it, you got it. Time to move on.

3) Sneak gets hit arguably the hardest by this. Nyx is also /probably/ not very happy, but the additional consistency loaned by Evolutionary Leap makes it less awful for them. I think that this is an enormous hit to the archetype, mostly because the "best" Nic Fits have always been those which are centered around a combo. Unfortunately, being centered around a combo means an intrinsically higher amount of filtering is required. The "worse" Nic Fits -- meaning the midrange and control options -- are likely on par with or possibly even better than the combo versions now, which will PROBABLY end up being too unstable to function smoothly. I say probably, because I just got home from work and I haven't had time to fully process the big picture or begin developing lists.

4) One of Nic Fit's biggest strengths as an archetype is its raw adaptability. Once we know what we need to fight, we can adapt to it. Unfortunately, what it's looking like at first blush is that what we need to fight is going to be a rogue's gallery of Nic Fit's biggest predators. Elves is going to be everywhere. Lands is going to be everywhere. Various combo decks are getting a large uptick. Death and Taxes is likely the best non-blue deck in the format at this point both as a result of the impending meta and also as a result of their insane inherent consistency thanks to white recruiter and flickerwisp, along with palace jailer and SoFI giving them a draw engine.

4a) This likely means that we are going to need to go adventuring in order to find a new "best fit." It could be something reanimator-ish with Collective Brutality and Brainstorm. It could be a Collected Company variant. It could be something that we haven't even thought of as a possibility yet. Sneak escaped notice as a version for a long, long time - who knows what else is lurking?

4b) Expect this to result in more bans as time passes. Hitting Top is going to set off a chain reaction. I expect that within two years, Gaea's Cradle (or Natural Order) and Dark Depths will both be banned, and possibly Lion's Eye Diamond as well.

5) Sylvan Library is a shitty card with Miracles out of the format. Night's Whisper and Painful Truths are the biggest gainers for us out of this, with Oath of Nissa being worth considering for some versions, and Traverse the Ulvenwald also being an option for others. Diabolic Intent may also rise in favor. Basically, I see two ways forward: either we focus more on tutoring, or we focus more on drawing. Drawing weakens us to Leovold (which has otherwise been a card we could simply ignore), tutoring weakens us to hand and tempo disruption (and Mindcensor). This is one reason I cautiously like Nyx moving forward: it is already built heavily around tutoring. At the same time, without Top to filter lands and spells to achieve a good mix of both, the deck is going to have some really awful top-heavy draws, which is concerning.

6) I SUSPECT, but do not know (because intricacies of delver mirrors) that Grixis will move back to top dog in Delver land. BUG had the best Miracles matchup, per my understanding, and Grixis with Stifles should be well suited to out-tempoing BUG. This is relevant because it signifies the format speeding up -- one of the reasons we'd been enjoying success for a while is that the format was fairly slow -- most of the top decks gave us a lot of time to set up and overpower. That is no longer going to be true, I think.

I have a tremendous amount of work to do on this subject. I should have something a bit more detailed and, I hope, optimistic within a day or two. I will try to present a range of options across the spectrum of possible Nic Fits.

[Brael]

Junk SE fit definitely interests me more now. TBH I don't see Terminus being played. Engineered explosives and Verdict seem much better and what control decks will play as sweepers now imo. I like lost legacy still. Good against combo.

I guarantee Terminus will still see play as a 4 of. It can be setup with Ponder, Brainstorm, Jace, and Preordain, and it's the only sweeper fast enough to be deployed on turn 3 to deal with decks like Dredge and Aggro. Verdict is too slow, by the time you can cast it you'll be dead.

[Arianrhod]

Bonus quickhit: we really, really, really need to consider the BG<> versions. They may be the biggest gainers out of this whole mess.

[Jain_Mor]

Thanks for the summary Brael, and great analysis Arianrhod! I've been following Nyx Fit actually, but I think I'll be going to a tournament this weekend (prize is plane ticket, hotel and byes for GP Vegas, runner ups is duals) and so I'm limited to the cards I have for the moment. Will be testing tonight and tomorrow for sure, playing with a SE/card advantage BGw build that aims to beat delver and midrange G1 and combo sideboard.

Arianrhod, I agree that miracles will likely stick around but its share will go down.I always hated keeping decays in the deck because of Counter Balance when we already have deed, and devoting so many slots and other decisions to the matchup.

Edit: agreed on BG<> I've seen tourmanent reports recently with BG<> decks in legacy (I think with vet and therapy too). I didn't imagine that did I?

[Brael]

1) to get this out of the way, Top was completely incorrect of a ban in my opinion. Terminus or Counterbalance were both much better options with less collateral damage. The Top ban was primarily championed by idiots with loudspeakers who should not be permitted to have any amount of weight lent to their opinions, because they don't understand the far-reaching consequences of the actions then endorse. This is roughly analogous to the Lodestone restriction in Vintage, IMO -- championed by the vocal minority, but which had poor consequences for the format (should've been Thorn of Amethyst).

I agree that Counterbalance would have been better. Wizards has the (flawed IMO) argument of tournament logistics with SDT though, and if you read their reasons that was actually what did it. They said they were fine with SDT from a power level standpoint.

They did it in Vintage too. My beloved Gush is gone yet again (probably never to return) when the real culprit was Monastery Mentor and probably Workshops.

3) Sneak gets hit arguably the hardest by this. Nyx is also /probably/ not very happy, but the additional consistency loaned by Evolutionary Leap makes it less awful for them. I think that this is an enormous hit to the archetype, mostly because the "best" Nic Fits have always been those which are centered around a combo. Unfortunately, being centered around a combo means an intrinsically higher amount of filtering is required. The "worse" Nic Fits -- meaning the midrange and control options -- are likely on par with or possibly even better than the combo versions now, which will PROBABLY end up being too unstable to function smoothly. I say probably, because I just got home from work and I haven't had time to fully process the big picture or begin developing lists.

SE doesn't care. If you remember my posts over the past couple months I've already been in the mode of cutting Tops because I found the mana drain on them to slow things down too much. The SDT free hands have always been much more explosive. I *THINK* Sylvan Library is a very easy swap. It's more card advantage and a similar level of filtering at lower total mana spent (but more up front). I don't expect to take many cards off Library though because of Bob. I think Rhinos get hit pretty hard though.

4a) This likely means that we are going to need to go adventuring in order to find a new "best fit." It could be something reanimator-ish with Collective Brutality and Brainstorm. It could be a Collected Company variant. It could be something that we haven't even thought of as a possibility yet. Sneak escaped notice as a version for a long, long time - who knows what else is lurking?

Combo worries me. I seem to have a better combo matchup than most Fits but if it sees an uptick I'm going to have a lot of problems.

I maintain my opinion from the other day that Brutality isn't where we want to be. I like it as a 1 of SB card, but if we just want it for discard I like Duress more.

4b) Expect this to result in more bans as time passes. Hitting Top is going to set off a chain reaction. I expect that within two years, Gaea's Cradle (or Natural Order) and Dark Depths will both be banned, and possibly Lion's Eye Diamond as well.

Agreed 100%. Miracles was just barely keeping the format in line, without it (though I think a new UW control will rise) Chalice rather than Counterbalance becomes the Chief of Police and that's going to lead to multiple bannings in the future.

I have a tremendous amount of work to do on this subject. I should have something a bit more detailed and, I hope, optimistic within a day or two. I will try to present a range of options across the spectrum of possible Nic Fits.

It may be warranted to make a note at the top of the primer about SDT. Just about every list in it includes the card.

[Arianrhod]

I agree that Counterbalance would have been better. Wizards has the (flawed IMO) argument of tournament logistics with SDT though, and if you read their reasons that was actually what did it. They said they were fine with SDT from a power level standpoint.

They did it in Vintage too. My beloved Gush is gone yet again (probably never to return) when the real culprit was Monastery Mentor and probably Workshops.



SE doesn't care. If you remember my posts over the past couple months I've already been in the mode of cutting Tops because I found the mana drain on them to slow things down too much. The SDT free hands have always been much more explosive. I *THINK* Sylvan Library is a very easy swap. It's more card advantage and a similar level of filtering at lower total mana spent (but more up front). I don't expect to take many cards off Library though because of Bob. I think Rhinos get hit pretty hard though.



Combo worries me. I seem to have a better combo matchup than most Fits but if it sees an uptick I'm going to have a lot of problems.

I maintain my opinion from the other day that Brutality isn't where we want to be. I like it as a 1 of SB card, but if we just want it for discard I like Duress more.



Agreed 100%. Miracles was just barely keeping the format in line, without it (though I think a new UW control will rise) Chalice rather than Counterbalance becomes the Chief of Police and that's going to lead to multiple bannings in the future.



It may be warranted to make a note at the top of the primer about SDT. Just about every list in it includes the card.

Good to know about SE, although I would be very worried about Bob without Top. That's just me, though.

I'm only advocating Brutality as an option in a Reanimator shell. Beyond that, I do not like it, especially with Top gone now.

I'm planning on a more thorough overhaul of the primer, but I can quickly edit it to make any newcomers aware of the issue.

I am really, really not looking forward to redoing the primer again u_u

[Purple Blood]

How about Mirri's Guile as a replacement?

[Arianrhod]

Oh, also, banning Top for "time reasons" is a crock of shit. Hit fucking Counterbalance then. Top only took a bunch off the clock because they had to Top in response to literally every spell.

[Brael]

Good to know about SE, although I would be very worried about Bob without Top. That's just me, though.

I'm only advocating Brutality as an option in a Reanimator shell. Beyond that, I do not like it, especially with Top gone now.

I'm planning on a more thorough overhaul of the primer, but I can quickly edit it to make any newcomers aware of the issue.

I am really, really not looking forward to redoing the primer again u_u

Bob without Top isn't a big deal. The numbers work out in it's favor, at least with the way I've built my curve. Most of my Bobs are without Tops. You usually draw into one by the time life really matters, and the same logic holds true with Library. Right now I'm thinking of a 1/1 split with Library and Guile (because I don't want to lose too many 1 drops, the second Library tends to be much worse since you already burned your life on cards, and because my self enforced Bob limit of 75 mana pips must be obeyed... I'm currently at 74, so unless I find a cut that's relevant).

There's other ways to interact for Bob too such as Courser which gives you some degree of control over what you hit by manipulating shuffles, clues, etc.

[Brael]

How about Mirri's Guile as a replacement?

It's been used before. The problem with it, besides Deed is that it's straight card disadvantage. Top always cycled for a card, where as Guile is a straight -1 for a questionable effect.

I think that Library is generally more powerful. Same effect, breaks even on cards pretty easily.

[jbone2016]

So.....scroll rack just as bad as library....or a different aspect?

[pettdan]

4a) This likely means that we are going to need to go adventuring in order to find a new "best fit." It could be something reanimator-ish with Collective Brutality and Brainstorm. It could be a Collected Company variant. It could be something that we haven't even thought of as a possibility yet.

Yes, BUG Reanimator Fit doesn't run SDT, or at least not necessarily, and Leovold and Collective Brutality have appeared since last I tried it. May try it again soon, very fun deck btw.

Edit: the part about not playing top is potentially valid for most BUG lists actually..

[Lueseto]

I've been playing BUG and used to run 2 Tops alongside 4 Brainstorms... Definitely happy to be playing Brainstorm now, though I might squeeze a Sylvan Library into one of the two slots left. Might take Courser out too, she certainly loses power now, though the deck has still a ton of shuffles.

As for Terminus, I don't think it's good enough to keep seeing play. Top was not only a way to set it up (and more importantly float it as a second card until the board state was flooded enough for it to be worthy) but being able to sweep in the opponent's turn without burning a Brainstorm was huge. Even if it remains as part of a UW control deck, which I don't think so, that deck will have so much less power than miracles that I feel creature-heavy Nic Fit lists will flourish. Looking to play 3 Trackers now.

[Yutao]

I'm looking to sub out the two tops in Rhino Fit with another DRS and another Tireless Tracker. I'll roll some testing with diabolic intent, which seems to be a good option for finding SB bullets or deeds.

[sdematt]

So we just got WAY better. Hallelujah.

Top being canned hurts us, but it is easily replaced with Sylvan and Truths. Rhino has never had a meta without Miracles, and I think we can do VERY well here.

Consider the fact that worse Delver decks come back (good for us), Maverick (good), Zoo (probably also good), and some Storm variants (worse).

I think we are overall ahead in this. Bear with me while I dance. Any control deck that comes out is either going to be Thopters, Landstill, or SFM based. 2/3 hate Deed. This is fine.

Sigarda and Thrun increase their value in many of these matchups, as Terminus isn't around.

Let's start again.

-Matt

[Echelon]

So I'm on holiday for 3 days, pop in the forum for a sec and SDT is banned? Well, wtf lol.

Things are going to get interesting.

@Brael: want to start round 2 of SE Fit development when I get back?

We'll start may 8th, everybody is more than welcome to join!

[Bobmans]

So we just got WAY better. Hallelujah.

Top being canned hurts us, but it is easily replaced with Sylvan and Truths. Rhino has never had a meta without Miracles, and I think we can do VERY well here.

Consider the fact that worse Delver decks come back (good for us), Maverick (good), Zoo (probably also good), and some Storm variants (worse).

I think we are overall ahead in this. Bear with me while I dance. Any control deck that comes out is either going to be Thopters, Landstill, or SFM based. 2/3 hate Deed. This is fine.

Sigarda and Thrun increase their value in many of these matchups, as Terminus isn't around.

Let's start again.

-Matt

Just mashed together Quad Rhino with 2 Bananaslayer Angel and Sigarda. Back to a more agressive build. 2 PTruth and 2 Library, 60 card main with 21 lands. No 6 drop. Its in my sig. I'm pretty excited, whatever happens.