I don't think this board's what you're looking for. On the main page you can find the casual section near the bottom.Originally Posted by Purple Blood
Good luck!
@Leshrac82: My first instinct is to yell "Moar Explorers", lol. And more removal. But you've only got 60 slots. Or, if you have plenty of colourless mana, MtG's best Siege Rhino - Thought-Knot Seer.
@Leshrac, would you consider a sole Sylvan Safekeeper? Seems good in the side-of course good with Titania. Good against opposing Karakas in a pinch.
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There is just no room for more Explorers or more removal. I'd have to cut either Crop Rotations or some of my GSZ bullets for either. I didn't try more Explorers so far, but i had plenty of builds with more removal, Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay or maindeck Engineered Explosives usually, also maindeck Collective Brutality or Warping Wail for more flexible cards. That makes the deck slightly better against Delver decks, but worse against everything else, and i'm pretty sure it's just not worth it.
I tried TKS in some very early and very different builds, it was underwhelming - too slow to matter against combo decks most of the time, and worse than just some more GSZ bullets against fair decks. I don't think this is what the deck wants. You want to play your anti-combo cards no later than Turn 2, and a Turn 2 TKS isn't that common with this deck. (And i think most combo decks are fine anyway, maindeck Gaddock Teeg helps a lot with that. TKS would help a bit against Omni, but to beat that deck i need much more than that.)
Haven't tried that one yet - you are not the first to suggest it, maybe i should really try it at some point. One problem with that idea: Karakas is only really relevant against Marit Lage, but against decks with Karakas i usually board out my Dark Depths, so postboard i don't really need protection for that.
It's close. I've mentally been brewing this for awhile as an alternative to white as my third color. If you check out my section in the primer I've got a build in there which is basically human fit, the key card though is Ranger of Eos. It's 4 mana, put a creature on the board, draw two more high threat creatures. It's absolutely fantastic. However, it's 4 mana which has been a hard sell for me in SE Fit. On the other hand, Dragonmaster Outcast is exactly the type of low strength creature I'm looking for, but it puts me in red. My solution? Imperial Recruiter. And from this point on it's pure theory because the price point is keeping me off of them.
Lets start with a list of creatures of interest that Imperial Recruiter gets us:
Veteran Explorer
Deathrite Shaman
Dragonmaster Outcast
Tireless Tracker
Endless One
Sylvan Ranger
Dark Confidant
Hangarback Walker
Walking Ballista
Braids, Cabal Minion
Courser of Kruphix
Oracle of Mul Daya
Hornet Queen
Deranged Hermit
Dryad Arbor
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Pestermite
Deciever Exarch
Eternal Witness
Siege-Gang Commander
Trygon Predator
Reclamation Sage
And I'm sure there's more I'm not thinking of right now.
Something interesting is that you can actually drop black and use blue and red sacrifice outlets (Crack the Earth, Perilous Research). But if you do, you'll also need counterspells.
I haven't figured much out past this part yet, but I like having Recruiter as a toolbox for game winning cards that also keep the curve low.
The Jund approach might beat any of the others, especially with the punishing engine thrown in. Jund is a great way to apply SE principals. Maybe I'll brew a list over the next couple days. Can't test it in paper though as long as Recruiters remain at $200 each. Well... unless I dip into my Underground Sea/FoW fund.
It will require some thinking, and take us back into Dark Petition territory. What can a Recruiter find, that he can also cast right away off of Tower mana? Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confidant, Walker, Ballista, and Arbor are the ones that come to mind for me.
Made a Jund SE list taking the Imperial Recruiter idea.
Land 23
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures 18
1 Endless One
1 Walking Ballista
1 Hangarback Walker
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Dragonmaster Outcast
4 Dark Confidant
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deranged Hermit
Spells 19
2 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Crop Rotation
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Mirri's Guile
Thoughts from the Jund players?
You really don't need that many Recruiter targets. After Explorer and Deathrite, you only need ~3 actual bullets to have targets for them, if you're on two copies. You may as well just run the best ones (imo Ballista for lategame/utility, Bob for card advantage, Hermit for board presence) and drop some of the extra stuff for cards that actually interact with the opponent. 2 Pfire / 2 Decay / 2 Edict / 1 Kommand is a pretty slim removal package and you'll probably be lacking there - IMO you want some Brutalities (helps all the bad matchups, good with pfire if you want to keep that in) and maybe some Lilianas (either flavor). Obviously sweepers are pretty terrible with all your small low-toughness creatures, but you probably still want some somewhere given that Elves and D&T are decks and Empty the Warrens is a card. Maybe something like Fiery Confluence that has utility even if you don't want to sweep the board?
5 basics is super low and worrying. 10 untapped black sources (excl tower) is way too low. Same for 10 red sources.
I think you're trying to do too many things with the land toolbox and the recruiter toolbox - jamming both in the same deck means you have a ton of silver bullets that are garbage to draw in the opening hand, in an already inconsistent deck. You'll get hands like Grove / Karakas / Stronghold / Endless One / PFire / Decay / Dragonmaster that just do stone cold nothing, and they'll probably come up a lot.
Deathrite, that's what I forgot. To fix the color issue, what will likely happen is that I cut the Punishing Fire engine.
My bad. Not trying to pollute this thread with nonsense. I only posted here because there is a lot more traffic. Thanks!
Don't worry about it, most of us try to make competitive lists though. Which isn't to say Jund can't be competitive.
Ok, not at work, and now I've got some tiem to kill. I think you're right about the recruiter targets. I based it in large part on my Ranger of Eos experiments. The key difference with them though, is that you're getting two cards so you're looking for synergy. With Recruiter you're only getting one card so power is more important.
Of my targets, I would like to discuss them:
The variable mana rate of Endless One is extremely useful, and it hits hard. It's a big beater that flips to Bob for cheap, and also a strong contender in a field of prison (not to uncommon in my area), since he casts through Chalice, Trinisphere, and Blood Moon. He's also a creature that is often times bigger than Gurmag Angler, and that offers up quite a bit of utility, but at the same time it can be cast at 2 mana if you need to stop something low to the ground. I think more people should try this card out. With Ranger of Eos I've often times used Sylvan Safekeeper to protect it, but that doesn't work with Recruiter.
Next is Hangarback Walker. It's less useful, but still good. I find I run either Endless One or Walker. I've tried Walker in the Trinket mage packages in the past too and it performed well. I think it fits best in a list with Intent though. I could see the cut.
Ballista is basically just removal. It's not good removal, but it works well enough.
I'm still thinking about Brutality. Playing it in multiples isn't really where I want to be.
I think the main mana issue is that Groves really screw the manabase, which is another reason to remove Punishing Fire.
Maybe something more like this
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures 18
1 Endless One
1 Walking Ballista
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
4 Dark Confidant
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deranged Hermit
Spells 19
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Crop Rotation
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Mirri's Guile
Interesting idea. Bringing up Recruiter had me thinking of other tutor effects. Has anyone tested Burning Wish? There's obviously Scapeshift but you have other nice targets like Innocent Blood, Thoughtseize, Lost Legacy/Slaughter Games, Deluge, Pyroclasm/Fiery Confluence, Massacre, Maelstrom Pulse, etc.
Are there enough slots if you build SE style but then mash in a Wish board? I kind of like the idea of being able to pivot from overwhelming them with multiple plays a turn to comboing out or grabbing the perfect card for the situation.
Burning Wish has been played in Jund before, but the builds look a little different. They're less creature focused.
Creatures 16
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Khrupix
1 Thragtusk
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Sorcery 11
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Night's Whispers
Instant 5
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan's Command
Enchantment 6
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Sneak Attack
Planeswalker 1
1 Nissa Vital Force
Lands 21
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard::
2 Blood Moon
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pyroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Kolaghan's Command
The more I play Sneak Fit post Top ban, the more I love Night's Whispers. Fills up the empty T2s with a decent CA spell when I keep a okish hand. Its 2 cmc also helps a lot of double spelling turns while pulls me very ahead in tempo or at least reach tempo parity against the more aggressive decks. I have also added 1 Courser for the life gain to cover some life loss from running 3 Night's Whispers. Have cut off Diabolic Intent for the 3rd Night's Whispers as most of the time it is just there rotting in my hand. Might want to bring it back by shaving the 4th Sneak Attack.
As for sideboard, the Carpets are amazing against control. Hard casting Emmy always feels great
Blood Moons are dropping in usefulness as players are playing more basics and the BUG menace seems to be subsiding.
Engineered Plague has singlehandedly won for me against tribal decks and D&T. Elf felt so much easier with EP around and buys a lot of time to engage the Sneak into Emmy combo to seal the deal.
Well, kinda depends what you're aiming to get with it. If the plan is to Wish for a certain category of card 9 out of 10 times, you might just want to run a card from that specific category instead. Would be awesome if you could come up with some kind of combo kill that'd fit right in your regular shell though.
Been thinking about it more and I think BUG using Trinket Mage is a better option. There's a lot of overlap in the cards you want to tutor, but blue offers some better options than red. I'll think on this tonight and see if I can come up with anything I like.
I played Burning Wish for value/flexibility (as opposed to combo) about two years ago. I'll link two posts on the topic, it would probably be impossible to find using the search function.. Perhaps it will give some inspiration. It was quite a different meta though. I think I stopped playing Punishing Fire decks, and with them the wishes, because they were so extremely grindy and games would always go to time.
The first post contains a general motivation of why you may want to play a Wish-board:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post885999
The second post contains the list I was playing and experimenting with:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post886121
I played some more on xmage with my NicFit-Cloudpost hybrid (see last page), only change i made: The Obstinate Baloths in the board were decent against Liliana, but otherwise pretty useless - including Burn (too slow, i really don't want to die with a sideboard card in hand in half of the games). Instead i'm now playing two Nissa, Vital Force. Good card in NicFit, should be decent against grindy decks - including decks with Liliana, but not limited to that. So far i have been pretty happy with her (but this is probably the most flexible spot right now). No changes to the maindeck - tried out the new Ramunap Excavator instead of the 4th Tracker for 10 matches and every single time i drew it i wished it was a Tracker, and i never wanted to search for it. Might still try it again later, but there is just nothing to cut and i think it's not really needed (it would probably be really good against Lands, but Lands is one of my best matchups, i don't need any help there). Thought about Sylvan Safekeeper some more, but didn't try it for a similar reason: I don't think i have any problems winning the games where it could be useful.
Overall, my results are still great, 104-33 now, so still around 75% winrate. Not everything against Tier 1 or 2 decks, there were some brews, but i think pretty much everything i faced was at least reasonable competitive, and i actually lost more against Tier 3-4 decks than against Tier 1-2 decks.
Results against most decks (alphabetical order, i left out some very unreasonable stuff):
12-Post (G): 0-1
12-Post (UG): 1-0
12-Post (RUG): 0-1
Affinity: 0-1
Aggro Loam: 3-0
Aluren: 1-0
Belcher: 1-1
BUG: 1-0
Burn: 3-1
Deadguy Ale: 2-1
Death&Taxes: 3-1
Delver (BUG): 1-1
Delver (Grixis): 3-1
Delver (RUG): 2-2
Delver (UR): 2-0
Delver (UWR): 1-0
Dragon-Stompy: 4-0
Dredge (LED): 2-2
Dredge (Manaless): 2-0
Eldrazi: 1-1
Elves: 3-3
Enchantress: 1-0
Goblins: 2-1
Grixis Control: 1-2
Infect: 2-0
Jund: 0-2
Lands: 5-0
Leylines: 3-0
Maverick: 3-0
Mentor (Jeskai): 1-0
Mentor (Mardu): 2-3
Miracles: 1-0
Mono-Red Sneakattack: 2-1
MUD: 1-0
NicFit (Jund): 1-0
OopsAllSpells: 1-0
Parfait (Mono-W Control): 1-0
Painter (UW): 0-1
Pox: 8-2
Reanimator (BG): 1-0
Reanimator (BR): 4-0
RUG: 1-0
Show&Tell (Eureka): 1-0
Show&Tell (Hypergenesis): 2-0
Show&Tell (Omnisneak): 1-0
Soldier Stompy: 1-0
Stoneblade (4-Color): 3-1
Stoneblade (Esper): 1-0
Stoneblade (UW): 1-0
Storm (ANT): 5-1
Storm (TES): 2-0
Tezzeret: 0-1
Turbo-Planeswalkers: 2-0
UB-Landstill: 1-0
Waterfalls (BURG-Cascade): 1-0
Zombies: 1-0
The only decks with 3 lost matches so far were Elves and a Mardu-Mentor brew, both decks going wide, and i'm 1-2 against Grixis Control with Pyromancer, also going wide. There is a reasonable chance i want more sweepers against these decks, or better a permanent solution, because these decks can rebuild very fast after a sweeper and that's often how i lose these games. Liliana, the Last Hope looks interesting, but i really don't think my deck can support the BB mana cost. Engineered Plague could be playable. For additional sweepers, i could maybe get away with a 3rd Toxic Deluge, i could play Golgari Charm and even though i think it's not great with Mox Diamond, Pernicious Deed is an option, maybe even the best option since it would help to deal with non-creature permanents. The more i look at the results, the more i think Pernicious Deed might really be what i want - in the sideboard for now, i really don't like to kill my Mox Diamonds with it.
Thanks for those links. Interesting stuff to think about.
My idea would be to use Wish as a catch all / versatile answer that doubles as a win con if the coast is clear. I suppose it comes down to, as you eluded to, whether the added versatility is worth the extra 1R you are essentially adding to the mana cost. You'd have to really have a solid list together and weigh out how many cards you'd be moving to the Wish board and what those cards would be replaced with other than Wish to begin to answer that though.
I may be nitpicking here, but if a 4 mana card is too slow to be reliably used as a SB card, why would you replace it with 2 5(!) mana cards..? Seems very counterproductive.
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