Moon is typically VERY, VERY good in the matchups you want to see it in. Total shocker for most opponents (except at my LGS...when I decide to show up....)Originally Posted by gth842s
As long as you are playing a Sigarda in your list, Land or any Punishing deck is winnable (definitely not favorable but winnable). Ooze is a huge trump card against these strategies but you need to play it well and late.
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
I actually cut the Dead Weights. I can see their use, but if you need removal off a Rector/Grove you can always get Deed / Fetters, which is way more universal, and you could spend the Dead Weight slots on Abrupt Decay which is more universal. Usually you have better targets for your Starfield triggers anyway, at least in the games I've played. I'm also liking Abrupt Decay because it's removal which can be cast through Nether Void and Dovescape, but you aren't playing either of those so I suppose it isn't an issue.
Doomwake only dies to enchantment hate / STP if you don't have Sterling Grove, though. IMO Nyx Fit already overloads Swords with Rector, Veteran, Eidolon etc, and once you've got a Doomwake trigger or two your opponent has probably lost anyway. I also like Doomwake because he blocks Gurmag Angler and Goyf, although I suppose that is less of a problem if you're running Humility. I ended up moving Humility to the side, since it is a nonbo with Doomwake. IMO Humility + CoDH go together, either sideboard or main - I like them in the sideboard because there's enough creatureless combo around me that I only have so many slots available in the maindeck that don't interact with noncreature permanents or apply pressure.
Library is a nice CA engine but I'd rather have the second Eidolon than a Library if I just wanted to draw a million cards. The deck also runs very little lifegain compared to normal Nic Fit - imo it's actually worse at using Library than most of the other Nic Fit decks.
Problem is, Sigarda requires a heavy commitment to white, which makes it a whole lot harder to reasonably plan to run Liliana of the Veil and/or Hymn to Tourach.
No.
I disagree.
You'll GSZ for Sigarda in 80% case (at least).
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
Sure, but I'm not comfortable running cards that I'm unlikely to be able to cast if I ever draw them. Particularly since the deck wants to be activating Liliana regularly, so having the one card in your hand be an uncastable Sigarda is really awkward.
The situation you describe is far too narrow:
1) You need a Liliana in play
2) You need to have one and only one card in hand
3) You desperately need to +1 Liliana (which is very unlikely against PF or Lands strategies because their recurring strategy outclass yours by fuc...miles or there is no light upstairs ?)
Serioulsy ?
=HYPGEOMDIST(0;1;15;60)
= 75%
It represents the chances not to have a Sigarda in hand after 8 turns on the draw or 7 turns on the play (without any mean to see the top of your deck)
////////
=1-HYPGEOMDIST(0;4;15;60)
= 70 %
It represents the chances to have a GSZ in hand etc...(same as above)
So basically in this scenario you have 50 % chances to be in the position of GSZing for Sigarda, 25 % chances to unfortunately have it already in your hand and 25 % chances neither to GSZ for it nor to have it hands.
If you had a top in the mix, you narrow down your chances to draw an unwanted Sigarda to 1 % (Maximum: either there is no light upstairs or something went really bad on your side...)
Don't mean to be rude (I leave that to Echelonand I usually value your opinion) but I prefer speaking about "overall chances" than "comfort zone".
I won't win every match I play but I want to maximize my chances against an expected meta.
Winning G1 BECAUSE I was able to GSZ for Sigarda will make G2 & G3 even easier. Mainly because my side should cover my inner weakness to these strategies.
My two cents.
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
Having an uncastable Sigarda in hand isn't super common, but I do think it'll happen more than is safe if you're building a manabase that can cast Hymn to Tourach on turn two reasonably reliably. More Deathrites might be the answer, but then you're making your Deeds worse. What odds of having BB available turn two are you comfortable with? 16 black lands gets you 69% odds of two in your first 8 cards, but naturally access to Explorer and Deathrite improves those odds. I don't think you can get to any more than 17 black lands without cutting out a lot of white - that gives you 5 nonblack sources for 2 Forest / 2 Plains / 1 Savannah, no non-Tower utility lands.
Use Crop Rotation. Rotate a Forest for a Phyrexian Tower, have the Tower eat a DRS/Explorer, and you get your Hymn mana reliably at the cost of having a bit more green later on (though that's usually not a problem).
I see people comment on the anti synergy between deed and deathrite far too often. DRS and deed are both insanely powerful, and in my experience, deathrite shaman lets you use your deeds more sparingly and more easily. You aren't going to blow a deed that is bad for you, so yes, some DRS may die to deed, but the overall trade is favorable. If it's not favorable, why are you blowing deed? For perspective, I play 4 DRS and 3 deeds, and I have never been super upset to blow away my DRS, because it's usually taking down a bunch of stuff anyways. I don't think skimping on DRS is a good idea because it supplements explorer's mana help and is fantastic against so many strategies, against almost any deck it is the best turn one play you can make.
Alrighty, here goes.(I leave that to Echelon
@Navsi: Meh, have some balls, dammit! I pull the same shit w/ Atraxa and it really hasn't been that bothersome. Also, this is another scenario where Sylvan Library helps you out. You don't necessarily play Library for the CA but rather for the card selection.
@Ralf: Does that work for you or do I need to add more?
People caring about Deed blowing up DRS have the wrong mindset to play this deck. It's a sever-the-limb-to-save-the-whole type of deal. And who cares about DRS if you can follow up w/ Rhino to the face? Especially if you're 2-for->2'ing your opponent. Same goes for Dryad Arbor, by the way. They serve to grind some value and buy you some time, nothing more.
I still don't think we can reasonably run Sigarda and Hymn in the same deck without sacrificing some reliability, but if you guys are comfortable with that then go right ahead.
Hymn and Liliana take up a lot of slots and don't help the Zenith plan. What creature package do you think goes in?
- Explorers
- Deathrite
- Scavenging Ooze
- Witness
- Tracker
- Meren?
- Rhino?
- Big Finisher
Not sure how many slots we'll have available. Meren seems good with Liliana, but I don't know if she'll have good enough targets available.
I saw a twitch stream playing this list yesterday, and absolutely loved it. Emrakul the Promised End felt such an house. Consistently ending the game at 6-7 mana even in the face of counters, and if she resolves, it's really hard to remove her with pro-instant meaning only a topdecked sorcery or an instant speed edict can remove her. A Walker fit shell seemed perfect for her.
This was the list IIRC:
//Main
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Thoughtseize
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thragtusk
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
After playing it a bit, i don't see how you can go back from playing 4 Ancestral recalls. It make lists with so many intertwined pieces like Nic-fit so much better.
@Arianrhod have you made any updates to your GBC Eldrazi Fit build? Emrakul might be pretty nice there.
Edit:
I've never liked Brainstorm in Nic Fit much. It feels really strong because we have so many shuffling effects, but I'm not sure if that's necessarily enough.
The problem I've always had with it is that there are very few cards in the deck we are happy to put back and shuffle away like other Brainstorm decks do. We don't have anywhere near as much of a hard cap on useful lands, and we aren't necessarily happy to shuffle away that fifth land another Legacy deck might not need. We run much fewer reactive/situational cards than other decks, so there aren't any useless lategame cards like Daze to ship away. Basically the only cards we aren't interested in drawing in the mid/late game are Veterans and Therapies, unless we're against a deck where removal isn't relevant. Most of our cards are also relevant in duplicates, unlike counterbalances / walkers in miracles or redundant combo pieces. Brainstorm seems a lot better in Pod lists where you have more silver bullets you don't necessarily need in a matchup and extra Birthing Pods which aren't needed. In a standard BUG goodstuff / planeswalkers list it's hardly ever Ancestral Recall because we don't have as many redundant bits to shuffle away. If I was looking for that sort of effect, I'd probably lean towards Painful Truths.
I don't think I would play rhino alongside lili and hymn, both for mana reasons and because rhino doesn't fit in a lotv deck in my opinion.
I'd play 2-3 trackers, maybe a finks due to lack of rhino? Then a thragtusk for the necessary life gain. Another slot could be prime time to have time to stall smashers and grind miracles.
The best non green win condition is grave Titan imo, but not everyone loves to play non gsz finishers.
But I wouldn't dislike a pw gb list that can gain infinite value and pressure, featuring liliana nissa and garruk. Then gsz would only represent ramp, gy hate and life gain, but not the game ending 5-6 mana bomb. The core of the creature package would be tracker. The guy could theoretically break the liliana simmetry in a slow and grindy way but that requires actual testing.
If I had 240€ I'd test the list online because it seems very powerful and fun to me. Liliana is not exactly cheap though.
If we don't want to play the very strong pw package we could have fun with a empath package (newmrakul, gurmag/tomb stalker, grave Titan) but, while fun, I don't think it is more powerful and faster than slamming liliana into nissa/garruk.
The gb list I have in mind is not a SE type of list, but has a lower number of 4-5-6 cmc bomb. Liliana is a bomb herself, and the only one good against both combo control and midrange.
I'd say Nissa VF is close, though she's only passable against combo (applies pressure, but is expensive) she's a house against the others. Newmrakul is great against all three but hard to cast.
I think it's possible to run an Empath package alongside the planeswalkers. Being able to tutor Emrakul is seriously strong.
4 vet (or swap one for deathrite)
1 yardhate (ooze/drs)
1 witness
1-2 tracker
1 empath
1 emrakul PE
1 grave titan
1 discount fatty (gurmag, tombstalker, tasigur or distended mindbender)
4 zenith
4 therapy
3 hymn
3 deed
2 decay
2 push
3 lili veil
2 nissa vf
1 garruk r
3 top
22 lands
Need to fit a thragtusk in somewhere, but otherwise seems like it'd be reasonably solid.
I agree with all this, Navsi.
This is pretty much what I had in mind regarding the empath list.
A more controlling approach that doesn't play empath would be +2 decay +1 tracker. A tusk is needed anyways because we don't play rhino.
I can only imagine the satisfying feeling of playing a clean mana base.
I'm not sure if a straight GB mana base is even better than a three colour one. You want a load of fetchlands for Tracker anyway.
4 Bayou
8 Fetch
2 Tower
4 Forest
4 Swamp
I'd be tempted to splash red, to be honest - maybe run Groves and swap Push for Punishing Fire, to enable Lili further, and it lets us run Blood Moon out of the sideboard which improves a lot of our bad matchups.
I dislike grove so much. Ruins the mana base and in a world full of eldrazi is a worse card. But that's only my personal opinion.
A red splash for me, not mentioning sideboard options would be for 4 and/or 6 mana Chandra, which could replace garruk.
It seems you dislike Punishing Fire, mostly. Which I can get behind.
If Eldrazi are still around in your meta I suppose that's reasonable, but splashing red is probably worth it in the Eldrazi matchup for Blood Moon, still.
I don't think we can run any double-red cards in the deck without cutting Hymn to Tourach. If anything, I'd run Arlinn Kord over Garruk.
I think we can get a workable manabase that includes a couple Groves and still has 16 black sources and a Tower.
8 Fetchland
4 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
16B (+Tower)
17G
12R
5 basics is a bit on the low side, but otherwise seems okay. Could easily drop a Bayou for a fourth Swamp, it's not like 16 green sources is low.
If you don't like Punishing Fire, I think the red splash is still worth it just for Blood Moon. A single Taiga or Badlands could probably do the job, then - not sure if there's anything else screaming to go in the deck.
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