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Thread: [Primer] Nic Fit

  1. #1961
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Maybe deservedly so. What's the problem?
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  2. #1962

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Maybe deservedly so. What's the problem?
    It's not a card I have any interest in playing at all, and I think it's definitely not a card that someone new to the deck / format should be playing either.

  3. #1963
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Navsi View Post
    It's not a card I have any interest in playing at all, and I think it's definitely not a card that someone new to the deck / format should be playing either.
    I have the same sentiment as you as far as this particular topic is concerned, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. It might provide a nice addition to the primer, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  4. #1964

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I have the same sentiment as you as far as this particular topic is concerned, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. It might provide a nice addition to the primer, though.
    The whole primer needs a rewrite again to be honest. The Top ban obsoletes a lot of the information there, and it's still written assuming Miracles is the best deck.

  5. #1965

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Low to the ground Rhino Fit w/ the CR tech! Awesome!
    I wouldn't call that low to the ground. 3 4 drops and 3 5 drops, 81 pips in total. I think the curve is good, but it's definitely not low to the ground. I am happy to see CR though. Contrary to your and Navsi's opinions on the card I think it's fantastic. It seriously helps against many of our traditionally bad matchups while not harming our good matchups in the slightest. And it's putting up results which indicates that there's something to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I have the same sentiment as you as far as this particular topic is concerned, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. It might provide a nice addition to the primer, though.
    I think discussion on the card is good. In the past couple months since we really started using the card, there have been a lot of successful lists using it, with a variety of numbers. Everything from 1 to 4, and different strategies to utilize the card at each number. It's not for every list, but I think it's good for a lot of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navsi View Post
    The whole primer needs a rewrite again to be honest. The Top ban obsoletes a lot of the information there, and it's still written assuming Miracles is the best deck.
    Isn't Miracles back in DTB now? Miracles, if not the best deck is still a very good one.

  6. #1966

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    Isn't Miracles back in DTB now? Miracles, if not the best deck is still a very good one.
    New Miracles functions quite differently to the old one, though. Mainly because Counterbalance is no longer so around.

  7. #1967

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Just ordered a foil Dovescape from star city. Would cause a stir if two wildly different nic fit lists won back to back eternal weekend-scale events...

    As far as Crop Rotation goes, having a couple easy maindeck answers to graveyard strategies/marit lage/sneakshow seems ok to me. It's going to be sided out in most matchups, but I could see it not being terrible even in game 1 against quite a bit of stuff. 2 seems like an ok number. To me it's just a bit of spice to help improve generally unfair matchups that we struggle with.

  8. #1968

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by square_two View Post
    Just ordered a foil Dovescape from star city. Would cause a stir if two wildly different nic fit lists won back to back eternal weekend-scale events...

    As far as Crop Rotation goes, having a couple easy maindeck answers to graveyard strategies/marit lage/sneakshow seems ok to me. It's going to be sided out in most matchups, but I could see it not being terrible even in game 1 against quite a bit of stuff. 2 seems like an ok number. To me it's just a bit of spice to help improve generally unfair matchups that we struggle with.
    I rarely ever want to remove my Crop Rotations. Even if you put aside the utility of lands like Karakas, Bojuka Bog, and even Maze of Ith. Crop Rotation still holds a lot of value by finding Phyrexian Tower, allowing it to act as sacrifice outlets 6+ for Veteran Explorer. That drastically speeds up your hands. It also acts as recursion with Phyrexian Tower. Just for the ability to effectively run two of each of those lands I think a single Crop Rotation is warranted in pretty much every game. The only time it's outright bad is if you play it into a Force of Will, but with even a moderate level of experience in the format you can avoid doing that.

  9. #1969
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Part of the issue with another primer re-write atm (aside from having the time to do so) is that I don't feel like we've really collected enough data / put up enough good results to actually draw any conclusions yet. We're still in the throes of a complete deck rebuild even as the format continues to shift and change around us.

    This result is an important step, for sure, but I don't think that we can really justify rewriting the primer when we have very little to effectually say at this point. It feels that we're still very much trying to find things that will work with Top gone at this point. It doesn't help that the "best" lists from pre-Top are basically stalled out dead in the water post-Top. I've tried and tried and tried to get Sneak working again and it just flat out...won't. I've tested with several BUG variants, as well as Sneak variants, on modo, and they just stall out and die. I've tried Leshrac's build and it did not go well for me -- might be pilot preference interference, but until more people are putting up results with it, I don't think we can confidently say that "this is a way forward" like I would want to be able to in the primer.

    I do have something in the works that I'm cooking up with Iggins, but I could be way off base and don't want to embarrass myself without trying it a little first -- planning on taking it to Mythic this weekend.

  10. #1970

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    About Crop Rotation: I usually cut them against fair blue decks without Wastelands, like Miracles or 4-Color Leovold, also against Dragon Stompy. All for the same reason: Risk to get countered (or uncastable against Chalice) is high and reward is pretty small because i don't really need the utility lands or the Dark Depths combo. Otherwise i usually don't cut them at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    I've tried Leshrac's build and it did not go well for me -- might be pilot preference interference, but until more people are putting up results with it, I don't think we can confidently say that "this is a way forward" like I would want to be able to in the primer.
    I'm curious why it didn't work for you. I have only my results on xmage to go with, and as i wrote a couple of times, they don't point to any real problems. So i really want to know where other players who tried the deck have problems with it. Could be a different playstyle, could be lack of experience with the build, but it's always possible my results would be much worse against better players (it's really hard for me to guess how much worse the playerbase on xmage is compared to Magic Online - sometimes i see obvious mistakes, but in most games i don't).

  11. #1971
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Hi guys!

    I am trying out this list now. I have removed Lliana of the Veil becasue I felt she didn't fit the deck at all. I really didn't want to discard any of my cards.

    It was build after Bobmans list

    https://deckstats.net/deck-13808213-...a7c66a3d8.html
    Deadguy ale Primer: http://articles.mtgcardmarket.com/br...n-deadguy-ale/ (Jeff did it before me)

  12. #1972
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganfar View Post
    Hi guys!

    I am trying out this list now. I have removed Lliana of the Veil becasue I felt she didn't fit the deck at all. I really didn't want to discard any of my cards.

    It was build after Bobmans list

    https://deckstats.net/deck-13808213-...a7c66a3d8.html
    You sure you don't want to discard any cabal therapy or punishing fire?

  13. #1973
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by rubblekill View Post
    You sure you don't want to discard any cabal therapy or punishing fire?
    Well yes but it's only 8 cards in the deck. I don't feel the need to have Veil in the deck even if she is one of the best planeswalker in magic. Don't fit in all decks
    Deadguy ale Primer: http://articles.mtgcardmarket.com/br...n-deadguy-ale/ (Jeff did it before me)

  14. #1974

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Had a random thought earlier about sacrifice outlets. Has anyone ever tried [card]Berserk[/card]? It sacs a Vet early or it makes a Rhino hit hard late.

  15. #1975

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    Had a random thought earlier about sacrifice outlets. Has anyone ever tried [card]Berserk[/card]? It sacs a Vet early or it makes a Rhino hit hard late.
    Assuming you only want 1 mana ways to kill an explorer for curve reasons (so no e.g. Diabolic Intent for example) is this really better than
    - Bone Splinters
    - Fume Spitter
    - Innocent Blood
    - Kjeldoran Dead
    - Plagued Rusalka
    - Tendrils of Despair
    - Crop Rotate for Phyrexian Tower
    etc

    Getting the 2 lands at the end of the turn with Berserk (rather than immediately with other sac outlets) seems not-great and Berserking a random fatty also seems very win-more

  16. #1976

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Assuming you only want 1 mana ways to kill an explorer for curve reasons (so no e.g. Diabolic Intent for example) is this really better than
    - Bone Splinters
    - Fume Spitter
    - Innocent Blood
    - Kjeldoran Dead
    - Plagued Rusalka
    - Tendrils of Despair
    - Crop Rotate for Phyrexian Tower
    etc

    Getting the 2 lands at the end of the turn with Berserk (rather than immediately with other sac outlets) seems not-great and Berserking a random fatty also seems very win-more
    Agreed

  17. #1977

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Assuming you only want 1 mana ways to kill an explorer for curve reasons (so no e.g. Diabolic Intent for example) is this really better than
    - Bone Splinters
    - Fume Spitter
    - Innocent Blood
    - Kjeldoran Dead
    - Plagued Rusalka
    - Tendrils of Despair
    - Crop Rotate for Phyrexian Tower
    etc

    Getting the 2 lands at the end of the turn with Berserk (rather than immediately with other sac outlets) seems not-great and Berserking a random fatty also seems very win-more
    With the exception of Crop Rotation, everything you mentioned involves giving up board position which tends to be pretty bad for us. Berserk actually translates into something. Being an instant, you can always cast it on your opponents combat step so you still get the mana first.

  18. #1978

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    With the exception of Crop Rotation, everything you mentioned involves giving up board position which tends to be pretty bad for us. Berserk actually translates into something. Being an instant, you can always cast it on your opponents combat step so you still get the mana first.
    If you cast it during your opponnent turn, your Vet didn't attack and so, didn't get destroyed by berserk. Plus, being an instant isn't relevant since it doesn't destroy at instant speed...

    Fatal push does more work than berserk and would be more relevant I think.

  19. #1979
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    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Leshrac82 View Post
    I'm curious why it didn't work for you. I have only my results on xmage to go with, and as i wrote a couple of times, they don't point to any real problems. So i really want to know where other players who tried the deck have problems with it. Could be a different playstyle, could be lack of experience with the build, but it's always possible my results would be much worse against better players (it's really hard for me to guess how much worse the playerbase on xmage is compared to Magic Online - sometimes i see obvious mistakes, but in most games i don't).
    Some of the problems were just bad hands / draws. I'd always draw the wrong pieces of everything at the wrong times. I also never drew Mox Diamonds in my opening hand, which made development very awkward....and then I'd draw them on like turn 6 when I didn't want them anymore.

    I think it's mostly playstyle problems, to be honest. I'm used to interactive lists with copious removal. Another issue I had was not being able to reliably flashback Therapies, which might just be another playstyle thing, since my sequencing patterns frequently involve the flashback.

    I guess I can best sum it up by saying that it felt more like 12post splashing Nic Fit, as opposed to Nic Fit splashing 12post, and I'm not really much of a post player.

    I will note that you are definitely right about Lingering Souls -- that card did a lot of heavy lifting out of the sideboard. Titania also quite impressed me.

  20. #1980

    Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    Some of the problems were just bad hands / draws. I'd always draw the wrong pieces of everything at the wrong times. I also never drew Mox Diamonds in my opening hand, which made development very awkward....and then I'd draw them on like turn 6 when I didn't want them anymore.

    I think it's mostly playstyle problems, to be honest. I'm used to interactive lists with copious removal. Another issue I had was not being able to reliably flashback Therapies, which might just be another playstyle thing, since my sequencing patterns frequently involve the flashback.

    I guess I can best sum it up by saying that it felt more like 12post splashing Nic Fit, as opposed to Nic Fit splashing 12post, and I'm not really much of a post player.

    I will note that you are definitely right about Lingering Souls -- that card did a lot of heavy lifting out of the sideboard. Titania also quite impressed me.
    Ok, that's fair - maybe it is slightly closer to 12post than to NicFit, but i think it's somewhere in the middle. This seems to be my big problem to find more players to play this deck: It's too much like a 12post deck for NicFit players, and it's too much like a NicFit deck for 12post players, and so most players either don't even want to try it, or even if they are very good with either NicFit or 12post might lack the experience to be successful with this. I played a ton of games with this and earlier versions, and when i started that i didn't have any real experience with either 12post or NicFit, so i had to figure out what worked best without prior experience (and as a result, whenever i try a real 12post or NicFit deck, it doesn't really work for me).

    Maybe i just need to put up more relevant results with it. I finally opened a Magic Online account today, just have to get the cards now, that will probably take a few days. If things work out i can maybe get some results in Magic Online leagues. If things don't work out i probably just burned some money - it definitely feels a little risky, since neither 12post nor NicFit put up any results on Magic Online, but i guess we will see.

    Lingering Souls out of the sideboard just keeps overperforming for me. The main reason it is so good: Nobody expects it, they usually expect one big creature. Souls have killed a lot of Planeswalkers for me, they buy time against creatures including Delver, and occasionally they have killed an opponent for me. Titania is good for similar reasons, with the added option to bring back an important land when i really need it (usually Eye of Ugin when i have a lot of mana and that's already gone) and in general more synergy with the rest of the deck.

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