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Thread: [DTB] U/R Delver

  1. #621

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by coff33bit View Post
    I'm thinking about initially trying +1 blue fetch land (for a total of 16 lands of: 3 VI, 4 Tarn, 3 blue fetches, 2 red fetches, 2 islands, 2 mountains), +1 Preordain, +1 Forked Bolt, and +1 Gut Shot.

    Also on the idea board is moving my Lavamancer to the main deck, replacing one of two Reveler's with a Snapcaster, or 1-2 Chart a Course.
    Gutshot ? You expect to see more 1 toughness creatures ?

  2. #622

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by SIeepwalker View Post
    What would you replace probe with in the prowess version of the deck ? Is preordain good ?
    yes Preordain is okay, but definitely not 4. You can add maybe 1-2 Preordain + 1-2 more burn spells or 1-2 more creatures. That should do it probably, the build will be significantly slower but it should work for either Prowess and YP.

  3. #623

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by SIeepwalker View Post
    Gutshot ? You expect to see more 1 toughness creatures ?
    I think DnT and RUG delver will be on the rise so being able to deal with Mom, Delver, Thalia for 2 life is appealing. This is of course subject to change based on how the meta shakes down. Gut Shot can also be thought of as a 2-3 damage spell because of the Prowess creatures.

  4. #624

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    I've allready been testing after Probe ban against various builds and came to a couple of conclusions:

    1. We lost quite A LOT of speed. Many turns I had Swiftspear and a Delver on the board, played Ponder, Bolt, Gitaxian Probe and finished of with a Fireblast while having a counter back up. That was a spell count of 5 (with counter spell) in which Swiftspear came for 6 (!) damage, Delver for 3 and another 7 from Bolt and Fireblast. Obv. this is was happening with only 2 mana and you were ALL THE TIME able to finish your opponent that turn. Without Gitaxian Probe it will be less likely because you dont have a free spell anymore and also more risky because you will not finish with that much damage anymore because you can not grow Swiftspear and Stormchaser (so having 2 mana means actually 2 spells so Swiftspear is "just" another Delver/Bolt). Also digging through your library so fast and easy gets way harder. Because of this the deck becomes a definitely grindier. This hurts THE MOST against control decks and grindy decks such as Stoneblade which go for the long run. Because you will loose to card quaility in general (late Swiftspear topdeck is just not that good) and you are missing a little bit of damage in the first turns so on side you are not so fast anymore to kill them turn 4 for example but you do not have the cards for the late game. Against aggro-control and fast decks it is not hurting that much or as much as you think, the deck did not change as much in its role for example against D&T or Canadian Thresh.

    2. With Deathrite Shaman out of the format Legacy is missing a HUGE one drop. That means back then being on the draw while your opponent was starting of with a Shaman the right play to do was ALWAYS to immediately Bolt it, no matter if you played against Grixis or 4c control (there is a case against Turbo depths which you wanted to play creature first). Since this tremendous 1 drop is gone leads to Ur Delver which has to deliver actually more one drops to take the aggressive part in it. Still being on the draw facing a turn 1 Mother of Runes is a must for Bolt T1 (also maybe Goblin Lackey) but since this is less likely than T1 Shaman Ur Delver needs to be the deck which plays T1 a creature. Starting of with Ponder just got a lot worse than before imo.

    3. Stormchaser Mage often came for 2 when I played it with Probes, now it only comes for one somehow. So sad because 1 week ago I joust bought a couple of Foil Stormchaser (my bad) but I dont see a world which Stormchaser is nearly as good as before. While Swiftspear still comes for 2-3 consistently Stormchaser is just different. Young Pyromancer also lost its best friend with Probe but since the deck gets grindier, I think YP is the way to go even though it is also quite weakend. Obv not 4 but 1-3 can be playable depending on the build even without Probe.

    4. Preordain is actually very good and does almost the same as Ponder and Brainstorm, I think it definitely has a place in the deck. I tested 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder and 2 Preordain and it felt ok, not optimal, but quite fine. I realised with 2-3 hand cards Preordain is actually way better mid-late game than Gitaxian Probe, so while the deck lost its early super power it gained late game a little more flexibilty.

    So my todays lesson is:
    The deck lost a lot of speed and combo ability especially in the beginning. The meta gets probably a little slower because there is no 1 mana super dork anymore so Ur Delver can compensate the loss with maybe extra 1 drops or maybe something like Thunderous Wrath for extra damage or "combo effect". Turning away from Prowess creatures except Swiftspear is probably the right call because the deck gets a little grindier and can not play as explosive as before.

    Ill keep testing and let you know. Heres my build, cheers:

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Monastery Swiftspear
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    2 Young Pyromancer
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Bedlam Reveler
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    2 Preordain
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Chain Lightning
    1 Forked Bolt
    2 Price of Progress
    1 Fireblast
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Polluted Delta
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    2 Mountain

  5. #625

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Thanks for the writeup, IamHANDSOME! Interesting reading. What targets do you anticipate in the new meta for the Grim Lavamancer to make him playable in main? Also, isn't Lavamancer + Reveler in main a bit of a anti-synergy?

  6. #626

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by igwtc View Post
    Thanks for the writeup, IamHANDSOME! Interesting reading. What targets do you anticipate in the new meta for the Grim Lavamancer to make him playable in main? Also, isn't Lavamancer + Reveler in main a bit of a anti-synergy?
    The point is to add more cc1 creatures for a solid T1 play. I simply want to build the deck more consistent and aggressive at the same time, because the explosiveness of Gitaxian Probe is gone. Lavamancer is an excellent T1 play and also makes damage in later stages when the board does not let creatures to attack anymore. The anti synergie with Reveler is also not a problem because you need them for 2 different matchups, Reveler is better in grindier matchups while Lavamancer is better against creature matchups. I just do not know where to go yet, maybe cutting both Lavamancer for a 2. Reveler because we will fight against grindier decks could also be a solution but Reveler is slowed down also because of the Probe ban. I keep testing it for sure. Today is the last day with playing Probe so enjoy until it you cant.

  7. #627

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    How about "mutagenic growth"?
    But i'm more concern about wasteland and stifle right now

  8. #628

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    I think Bomat Courier should be given consideration. I think this card can be so good for a deck like this. Its a one drop, and will go uncontested, provides late game card advantage. i feel like the card was being held back by deathrite shame

  9. #629

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by imreal66 View Post
    deathrite shame
    lol. Still accurate even if a typo.
    Mom-mom had to die because of the ground chemicals. http://achewood.com/index.php?date=10272003

  10. #630

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by menloe View Post
    lol. Still accurate even if a typo.
    Was a typo, but actually funny

  11. #631

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    If we're talking about having good late game, I think Snapcaster Mage is a very viable option. Being able to flashback a PoP or even the ol' Bolt Snap Bolt play is very strong.

  12. #632

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME View Post
    yes Preordain is okay, but definitely not 4. You can add maybe 1-2 Preordain + 1-2 more burn spells or 1-2 more creatures. That should do it probably, the build will be significantly slower but it should work for either Prowess and YP.
    I think I want Opt in place of Preordain and the full four Chain Lightning (up from two.)

    Cheap instants with worse effects than more powerful sorceries seem better in either version of this deck. Might even think about Shock over the additional Chain Lightnings just so I can cast it at instant speed. Sudden Shock looks good too if Miracles goes bananas.
    Mom-mom had to die because of the ground chemicals. http://achewood.com/index.php?date=10272003

  13. #633

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by imreal66 View Post
    I think Bomat Courier should be given consideration. I think this card can be so good for a deck like this. Its a one drop, and will go uncontested, provides late game card advantage. i feel like the card was being held back by deathrite shame
    The card is practically a huge flop. Imagine yourself attacking with it 4 times, tapping yourself out and in response it gets killed. So you just made 4 damage in 4 turns and exiled 4 cards you don't even get. Also it is a 1/1, to exile it needs to attack. So many creatures just block it to death, I dont see how the card can ever work. This is Legacy, not Standard.

  14. #634

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME View Post
    The card is practically a huge flop. Imagine yourself attacking with it 4 times, tapping yourself out and in response it gets killed. So you just made 4 damage in 4 turns and exiled 4 cards you don't even get. Also it is a 1/1, to exile it needs to attack. So many creatures just block it to death, I dont see how the card can ever work. This is Legacy, not Standard.
    Not only that, but the legacy delver deck usually runs 7-12 counterspells pre and post board games, discarding your hand is not something you want to be doing if you have counterspells. Now I think you could possibly argue for including Goblin Guide in a hyper aggressive build over (or in addition) to Swiftspear.

  15. #635

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    I've been looking over some of the Japanese UR Delver decks http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/s...hetype=A000344 since the rotation, as they seem to have builds that rely less on Gitaxian Probe. I've noticed most of them are more grindy pyromancer/TNN decks, one player in particular seems fond of running both Fire // Ice, and Dead // Gone. That got me thinking, what is the opinion on Turn // Burn? I know it is more expensive for both sides, but I can see where it could be better in some matchups (as well as worse), and also has some added flexibility of being able to cast both sides. I do really like the idea of running some of these split cards for the added flexibility it provides. Chart a Course is also on my radar, as a possible mid/late game card advantage engine which I believe the deck could easily support.

    There's so many things to try.

  16. #636

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    I've been testing online since Friday non stop with UR, playtime around 11-12 hours in 2 days ^^ A couple of more things I have to add which I can say for sure now:

    1. The deck is weakened a lot, but so is the meta. Gitaxian Probe was pretty busted because we were allowed to play a 56 cards deck which was insane in our prowess build. Now with Probe gone the deck is significantly slower, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. You feel your speed loss in the early turns the most. On the other hand there are no real T1 threats anymore, I played vs. couple of Goblins and D&T builds which you need to answer possible T1 creatures, but the format looks like UR Delver being a REAL AGGRO-TEMPO build which can dominate in that category. Also Price of Progress still feels overpowered in our deck which is a good thing. This leads to point number 2.

    2. Monastery Swiftspear is still a MUST in the build. So the reason for this is very simple. We are an aggro deck and we need to follow a tempo strategy. The format without Shaman is 1. slower (because all the shells are missing the most powerful dork) and 2. better for combo (because blue decks got worse in genereal, slower in cantripping and finding counterspells and hate cards because of Shaman ban). Means for both you need Swiftspear to 1. make Tempo yourself to follow your aggro plan 2. actually being able to race combo decks. The 2. point is insane, Swiftspear is even when weakened a necessary evil to race combo such as ANT, TES, Lands, even Reanimator and something like Charbelcher. So where Canadian Thresh can be a little slow and have to rely on Stifles, Wasteland and counterspells, Ur Delver can be better by making more damage and being faster in general. I also tested a build without Swiftspears but 3 Lavamancer, 4 Delver, 3 YP, 2 Snapcaster and 2 TNN and the build was just okay but not fast enough to beat several combo decks.

    3. D&T with Brightling and Goblins became new decks to beat or lets say bad matchups for us. Both decks can screw us hard soooo I feel that 2 Lavamancer are needed to try to improve these matchups. Also Goblins is not an aggro deck, they play very midrange like so it becomes difficult to fight through Chalice, Vial, Wastelands and several Goblins. Also Lavamancer is a more steady card so it makes the deck without Probe more consistent.

    4. Stormchaser and Bedlam Reveler feel like being dead. I could not make them look good in my build since the ban. Reveler looks good on paper but is just awful drawing it early. Also now with having to fight vs. D&T and Stoneblade decks instead of 4c Control Reveler got even worse and Lavamancer is needed. So I cut Reveler and Stormchaser entirely from my list. Its time to play Snapcaster in UR I think.

    5. 1-2 Preordain are fine, didn't like to have more.

    cheers

  17. #637
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    If you're willing to lose some % in game one against Reanimator (and other combo decks), going the Sligh route dramatically improves the matchups against decks like D&T and Goblins. The deck is way more aggressive, and doesn't really care about losing Probe. In fact, the loss of DRS is a bigger net positive for the deck, IMO.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  18. #638

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    If you're willing to lose some % in game one against Reanimator (and other combo decks), going the Sligh route dramatically improves the matchups against decks like D&T and Goblins. The deck is way more aggressive, and doesn't really care about losing Probe. In fact, the loss of DRS is a bigger net positive for the deck, IMO.
    you mean a list with Goblin Guide?

  19. #639
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
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    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  20. #640
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Also, I don't think the bans are going to be better for combo long-term. Losing Probe hurts ANT and TES pretty bad... and RUG Delver is going to still police the combo decks.

    There is going to be an uptick in Esper Stoneblade, which is strong against combo with its combination of countermagic, discard, and hatebears. D&T will see more play, which is also going to help keep combo in check too.

    Reanimator and other graveyard strategies are going to pick up initially because of the loss of DRS, but that will be kept in check by an increase in graveyard hate in sideboards.

    Overall, I think the amount of combo will remain mostly the same, with BR Reanimator and Turbo Depths (i.e fast combo) being the hardest ones to deal with for this deck.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

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