[DTB] U/R Delver

[Chatto]

I think you hit the nail right on the head here why Blood Moon isn't that great in U/R Delver.

@Chatto I wouldn't mind writing more on the matchups section of the primer to keep it up to speed with the current decks to beat. I am a little busy right now but might be able to squeeze in some time in the coming week to do some writing.

About Blood Moon: yep, I thought it was Great (and it was in certain mu's), but it is too clunky indeed.

@ TMWAP: you got my emailadress

[pateuglow]

I'd agree with the evaluation of Blood Moon. That being said, it sometimes feels so good to slam it versus Eldrazi or BUG, but often it's too little, too late.

[Poron]

why Blood Moon against Eldrazi when this deck has the colors to SnapMage PoProgress back and chump block with it?

you just need to reach turn 4-5 consistently

[pateuglow]

why Blood Moon against Eldrazi when this deck has the colors to SnapMage PoProgress back and chump block with it?

you just need to reach turn 4-5 consistently

Because I can't remember a time when I had 4 mana to make that play consistently on a turn relevant in the Eldrazi matchup.

With Eldrazi having Chalice, Wasteland, and a fast clock, I don't think you can wait until then to snap back a PoP

[Smuggo]

A bit late as I've been travelling but here's my tournament writeup. I did not do very well going 1-4-1, partly unfavourable matchups and partly some misplays by me. However a UR list did win the tournament. The decklist for that hasn't been posted yet but I'm interested to see what he was running.

My list:

Main (60)
1 Bedlam Reveler
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Brainstorm
3 Chain Lightning
4 Daze
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Fireblast
3 Flooded Strand
3 Force of Will
1 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Island
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Mountain
4 Ponder
2 Price of Progress
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Stormchaser Mage
1 Thunderous Wrath
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Rough // Tumble
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vapor Snag
1 Winter Orb

Match 1 vs Miracles 1-1-1: I'm playing vs a very competent player who won the February event. He beats me fairly easily G1, in G2 I get an early winter orb and slowly this cuts off his resources and I am able to win but it takes a long time. As we start the final game time is up and turns are called, he get counter top down but cannot win in time so we call a draw.

Match 2 vs 4c Delver 1-2: I play my friend who I have a ton of experience against. Usually I win this as I'm just faster than him. He takes G1 with DRS just keeping him alive long enough to get me. G2 we both put TNNs down turn 3 but I have more direct damage so he's on a difficult clock and loses. G3 I get him to 1 life while only on 2 life myself, again DRS is keeping him in it. I bolt to finish him off, he brainstorms, i flusterstorm the brainstorm... and he has a daze in hand for my bolt that I can't pay for. I still think flustering the brainstorm was probably the right play, but he played well to use that to bait out my countermagic.

Match 3 vs Miracles 1-2: This player is much less experienced. G1 is a grind, he get a counterbalance down but he never managed to find a top. I am able to grind him down a bit but eventually he finds mentor and is able to get a load of tokens I can do little about with his cantrips. G2 I get creatures on the board and put the pressure on. He gets mentor and 2x tops, makes a ton of token but I have sulfur elemental in hand to deal with it and he goes down shortly after. Final game we are again at time but he very quickly get mentor down again and I give him the game.

Match 4 vs Elves 1-2: I win game 1 easily with delver pressure from the start and bolts to keep him in check. G2 I make a huge misplay and fail to hide my bolts with brainstorm when he Cabal therapies me. He gets two bolts off it then repeats to take my only counter and kills me with craterhoof. G3 he gets a natural order resolved and gets Ruric Thar which is scoop time for me.

Match 5 vs OmniTell 2-1: He gets some rough hands and I am ready with countermagic each game. G1 I slow him down with force and put threats on board and when he eventually get Grisel I am able to place a TNN with show and tell and finish him next turn with that and a couple of bolts. G2 I force intuition but he has another and he managed to get Omni down and an Emrakul before i can finish him and it's GG. G3 he mulled quite hard and just couldn't draw into what he needed and went down fast to my double abberations.

Match 6 vs B/R Reanimator 1-2: Game 1 I had to mull to 5 due to no lands and just didn't have the countermagic to stop him. G2 I have all the countermagic I need and a threat. Get him low, he managed to put a Griselband on the board but I block and bolt my own abberation to stop the lifegain, then a chain, a bolt and fireblast finishes him. G3 chancellor reveal slows me down, he then gets Elesh Norn and Grisel into his GY with Faithless Looting. He casts animate dead so I surgical the grisel in response to he takes elesh. I dig desperately for some answer as I have a hand full of creatures that die to Elesh but also a couple of stormchasers that could buy me time, but I am stick with one land and just can't find another and the 3 damage clock does me in.

It was fun to play. I never felt like I got completely crushed and many games were close. Some misplays for me to learn from, but getting matched vs miracles twice really hurt me early on. I'll post the winning U/R list once I know it. I think I might drop thunderous wrath but not sure what should go in its place. I might rebalance my SB too as grafdiggers just seems a wasted slot in the current meta. Maybe another Pyroblast/REB to give me more ability to deal with counter-top situations, though it is still hard with any 1 mana spell to deal with counterbalance.

[paradigm72]

he then gets Elesh Norn and Grisel into his GY with Faithless Looting. He casts animate dead so I surgical the grisel in response to he takes elesh. I dig desperately for some answer as I have a hand full of creatures that die to Elesh but also a couple of stormchasers that could buy me time, but I am stick with one land and just can't find another and the 3 damage clock does me in.

Unless I am really misunderstanding something, you got robbed here - Animate Dead is an aura which targets a specific creature card in the graveyard. It should fizzle if you Surgical its target.

[Smuggo]

Unless I am really misunderstanding something, you got robbed here - Animate Dead is an aura which targets a specific creature card in the graveyard. It should fizzle if you Surgical its target.

Ah ok I think we both misunderstood the ruling then, it was a revised AD so possibly old wording confused both. I think it was a genuine mistake and didn't much matter at that point as we were both near the bottom but good to know for next time.

[RobNC]

Ah ok I think we both misunderstood the ruling then, it was a revised AD so possibly old wording confused both. I think it was a genuine mistake and didn't much matter at that point as we were both near the bottom but good to know for next time.

Don't worry, even the official oracle text is confusing as hell and has to be read multiple times.

[TheManWithaPlan]

Trying Fireblast on Friday. There is something to these big spells. So far with a couple goldfishes it feels much better than Thunderous Wrath or Bedlam Reveler because of how easy it is to cast. The fact that you don't need mana to cast it is what breaks this card. I haven't found any trouble casting it and isn't as much of a stinker while rotting in your hand as Reveler or Wrath. It also contributes to our primary game plan far more than the Reveler could in situations where we are ahead, which should be most of the time. Hypothetically if I was ahead in a game and needed a couple more turns to swing in with creatures to win the game, I would much rather see Fireblast than Bedlam Reveler. I feel like Fireblast is a good topdeck starting much earlier in the game than Bedlam Reveler is, but isn't going to get you back from behind unless your opponent is at 4.

Will report and if that goes well I might play it on Saturday or Sunday.

[Hanni]

Thunderous Wrath is a difficult card to evaluate, especially as a 1-of. I think the blind draws from Ponder (when shuffling) and Probe can make Wrath a bit more akward here, which makes it even harder to evaluate.

In R/u Sligh, the math seems to suggest that I'm rarely going to see Wrath, but when I do, 50%+ of the time it will be in my opening hand, and less than 50% it will get miracled off the top. However, when evaluating the chance to see a single Brainstorm over the course of the game, the math changes to roughly 75% of the time it will be enabled and 25% of the time it will be a blank. Given the fact that Wrath deals nearly two burn spells worth of damage, I believe that the risk vs reward is in the favor of Wrath. At the very least, a 2/1 split of Fireblast and Wrath seems better than 3 Fireblast, in that deck.

However, in this deck, there are much better burn spells to run before considering a card like Wrath. A 1-of Fireblast surely seems better, if you are not yet running any. I'd also consider both Rift Bolt and Forked Bolt before Wrath as well.

[Smuggo]

From my experience, I've never struggled to miracle thunderous wrath. I've sometimes thrown away an opening hand with it but that was usually due to either lack of land or just being a poor hand in other ways, not because Thunderous was in it. Almost always you will be able to put it back ontop with brainstorm if needed and it's rare when you can't cast it for miracle cost in your draw step. The problem it does have is it will almost always attract a counter. This could be good or bad, as they might use a force of will on it and lose card advantage which frankly is good for our one mana cost and stops that force being used on more critical spells. Unless it's super early they might daze, but again we gain tempo and they essentially burn countermagic on not much or we can just pay for it.

That said though, it often doesn't get us close enough to victory.

I am coming round to the idea of Goblin Guide as he is a cheap threat that stays on board for potentially a turn or two, and if they hit him with removal then that is removal that could have been used on better later game creatures like delver and swiftspear. Maybe I will drop thunderous and perhaps bedlam in the main and try him out. Rift bolt could be a plan too as it is much harder for miracles to counterbalance it, though it does give them time to set up for it.

[Chatto]

Regarding Fireblast: I've been playing one since I picked up this deck. Never looked back, it's a good Burn-spell.

[jattra]

I included Thunderous Wrath in my deck for last two local events and I am happy with it.
I also play Fireblast. That is the card that enables your 10+ dmg turns.
Another tech I included is Sudden Shock to kill annoying creatures such as Monastery Mentor, Deathrite Shaman or just anything when they have Mother of Runes. Imagine their face when they are keeping their shaman ready to gain life in response to your spell and never get to activate it (alert, personal hate for lifegain detected).
I moved a singleton Bedlam Reveler to the sideboard. I think he is really good against Miracles and some Chalice decks.
I completely cut Gitaxian Probe. I don't like the card in any scenario other than free prowess trigger and that happens quite rarely. With so much removal around, I often just play probe with an empty board, crossing fingers that I draw into a threat. It is also bad with the new play toy Thunderous Wrath. Instead of probe, I put Preordain, Spell Pierce and more bolts in the deck.
Now, if you already think I ruined the deck, wait for the last card. It's Divert in SB to punish black mages for casting Hymn to Tourach and Abrupt Decay.

Complete list:

16 Lands
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Stormchaser Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Grim Lavamancer

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast
1 Forked Bolt
1 Sudden Shock
1 Thunderous Wrath

Sideboard:
1 Bedlam Reveler
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Divert
1 Echoing Truth
1 Vapor Snag
1 Null Rod
2 Price of Progress
2 Pyroblast
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Surgical Extraction

[Jonny Tempel]

So i'm back from the tournament i tested the last few weeks for. I finally decided against Reveler and Clique in the main to play 2 Lavamancers.

My list:

Spells: 31
4x Chain Lightning
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Force of Will
2x Price of Progress
1x Fireblast
1x Thunderous Wrath

Lands: 16
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island
2x Wooded Foothills

Creatures: 13
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Monastery Swiftspear
3x Stormchaser Mage

Sideboard: 15
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
1x Pithing Needle
1x Price of Progress
2x Pyroblast
2x Smash to Smithereens
1x Spell Pierce
1x Sudden Demise
2x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Vendilion Clique


I will make some quick write up:

Match 1 against UB Tezzerator 0-2
This was the only MU the whole day which felt just unwinnable to be honest.
Game 1 i got him down to 10 life quickly with a good hand when he got out a Chalice on one followed with a Chalice on two and 2 walking Balistas. I had a fireblast and PoP in hand but he had played around and finished me off before i could draw something relevant. Got mana flooded too so maybe i could have won that game as he had a slow start.
Game two he tried to go for Chalice on 1 again which i forced only to get trinisphered out of the game on turn 2. I drew the Smash to Smithereens but was stuck on two lands for to long.

Match 2 against Maverick 2-1
Game 1 i ran him over very quick.
Game 2 takes like forever (30 minutes?) as i drew bolt after bolt to deal with his Stoneforge Mystics and other small creatures and him decaying/swording all of my creatures. At one point he gets a Thalia+ Jitte through my bolts/counters and i concede at a low life total to have some more minutes left for the last game.
Game 3 is similar to game 1 but i'm able to land a sulfuric vortex on turn 3 which finally gets him after a bunch of burn spells to the face and chipping away with a Stormchaser Mage.

Match 3 against Miracles 2-0
Game 1 i have a very good draw as he is forced to sword a turn 1 Lavamancer only for me to land double delver with counter and bolt backup.
Game 2 is way more grindy, i manage to keep counterbalance of the table with Pyroblast only land one creature at a time to let him kinda waste his terminus. I manage to get him down to 8 with a flipped Delver in play when i topdeck Wrath so he has to force it with his last card in hand only to get fireblasted for the win.

Match 4 against BUG Delver 2-1
Game 1 is "funny" he goes DRS, i play Lavamancer and pass. He then tries to Hymn me and discards BOTH of my lands, following up with a wasteland on my volcanic and i never draw another land for the next 5 turns. LOL
Game 2 and 3 i'm just to fast for him. His DRS and Delvers always die to bolts while i can simply ignore his Tombstalker. He has to commit most of his removal spells to keep my Delvers and Lavamancers of the board so various prowess guys + bolts/PoPs can finish him off. Daze is just a house in those games if you can keep DRS of the table. Those BUG list may have far more powerful cards than we do but the deck is very clunky when interupted and pressured early.

Match 5 against Miracles (1-2)
Damn it. Another bad MU.
Game 1 is over pretty fast as i have a fast start and Wrath deals enough (unexpected) damage to get me through.
Game 2 i'm to slow and get toplocked while he is still at ~ 10 life.
Game 3 Is grindy again but i'm able to deploy a Vortex through his counters. I have a bad feeling this could be a turn to late as he drops and Elspeth, Knight Errant and start making tokens. We battle for some more rounds when he is finally on 3 (going to 1 from the upkeep trigger) and i'm on 8 life when i pass the turn back with a swiftspear on board and him with Elspeth and 2 Tokens. So he's dead if he does not get 6 damage through my swiftspear to let my own vortex kill me which he is not able to do even with a removal spell. He gives one of his tokens +3/+3 and flying, then plays his topdecked second copy of Elspeth, gives the other token +3/+3 and flying too and just straight out kills me while he wins on 1 life left. God damn it! It was sooo close.

So i finally dropped at 3-2, only 1 win short from having a chance to top8. The #8 seat of top 8 had 10 points (all others had 12-15) but there were about 8 playes with 9 points, including me. Nevertheless i really really enjoyed most of my games and had a nice time. I made only a few minor mistakes and i feel that with a little more luck/skill i could have easily made top8 despite having to fight through 3-4 rough MU's.


I was satisified with my last minute changes, even if i never got to activate Lavamancer, he forced my opponents to make suboptimal lines of play trying to remove him asap. Wrath was really good too. He only got stuck in my hand once where i was able to brainstorm him back on top of my library after 1-2 turns and get rid of an opposing Knight of the Reliquary on my upkeep for only R.




Edit: I like the idea of a 1-of Divert in the board. Seems like a fun and unexpected but maybe sometimes to narrow card.

[pateuglow]

I am coming round to the idea of Goblin Guide as he is a cheap threat that stays on board for potentially a turn or two, and if they hit him with removal then that is removal that could have been used on better later game creatures like delver and swiftspear. Maybe I will drop thunderous and perhaps bedlam in the main and try him out. Rift bolt could be a plan too as it is much harder for miracles to counterbalance it, though it does give them time to set up for it.

Why do you consider Swiftspear a later game creature? It feels pretty bad once they have dropped any blocker.

[Smuggo]

Why do you consider Swiftspear a later game creature? It feels pretty bad once they have dropped any blocker.

So by "later game" I really mean T2/3. Guide is only ever a 2/2 but swiftspear can and often does become a lot bigger. I find if you have mana open it rarely gets blocked wheras guide usually will. Plus if you drop swiftspear T1 then it is often swinging for 3 T2, sometimes 4, which makes it a more impactful threat beyond the first turn or two.

[Holden1669]

I'm thinking of playing Legacy for the first time in a few years and I'm looking at this deck. I've noticed that no one seems to run Young Pyromancer. Is Stormchaser Mage that much better? Also has anyone tried Wastelands over Price of Progress recently? Thanks for the guidance.

[Chatto]

I'm thinking of playing Legacy for the first time in a few years and I'm looking at this deck. I've noticed that no one seems to run Young Pyromancer. Is Stormchaser Mage that much better? Also has anyone tried Wastelands over Price of Progress recently? Thanks for the guidance.

Welcome back! YP is usually played in a controlish build, this deck is more about maximazing damage. Same goes for Wasteland, I think. PoP does damage, against some decks (almost all decks nowadays) it's a certain 6+ damage if not reacted upon. This deck also has one of the more stable manabases in Legacy, and with so few lands it's hard to squeeze in Wasteland. If you like to play those cards, check out UR Control.

[pateuglow]

I'll be streaming UR Delver tonight on Twitch in the Community Legacy League on MTGO

8:30 EST

www.Twitch.tv/pateuglow

[Chatto]

I'll be streaming UR Delver tonight on Twitch in the Community Legacy League on MTGO

8:30 EST

www.Twitch.tv/pateuglow

Nice! Will try and check it out. Will you record it?