Page 36 of 44 FirstFirst ... 26323334353637383940 ... LastLast
Results 701 to 720 of 876

Thread: [DTB] U/R Delver

  1. #701
    Member

    Join Date

    Mar 2016
    Location

    Austria
    Posts

    50

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME View Post
    I dont see how Risk Factor is going to do anything. I mean first of all it costs 3 mana, thats a lot for Legacy. If my opponent is on 4 life you will get to draw 3 cards but how good is drawing 3 cards for 3 mana? With this logic every Grixis list should play Painful Truths and this is not the case. If my opponent is on lets say 12 life he is probably willing to take 4 damage, if you want to flashback it costs 3 mana again + discarding a card which is creating card disadvantage. I think combo would be willing to take damage all the time and you are tapped out (!) which is very bad. Even playing it End of Turn would be a Time Walk against yourself if you need to respond to a single spell with a Brainstorm before and not to get to play Risk Factor, that would mean itll rot on your hand forever.

    I think in Burn the card is actually legit because there is no card manipulation and Burn makes sure your opponent IS actually all the time on 4-5 life so either Browbeat or Risk Factor will add something to your deck. But in a deck with Brainstorm and Force of Will the card just looks very very bad.
    Those were my first thoughts too. But hey that means those MTGO lists managed to go 5-0 DESPITE running Risk Factor so the deck must be really good again

  2. #702

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny Tempel View Post
    Those were my first thoughts too. But hey that means those MTGO lists managed to go 5-0 DESPITE running Risk Factor so the deck must be really good again
    UR Delvers spot right now is really hit or miss. With a little luck you can definitely can go 5-0 or further. Delver, Wasteland, Daze and a bunch of Burn spells ALWAYS work. But its not nearly as consistent how it used to be. How many 5-0 has there been since the bannings? Just a couple but not really consistently in their results. Also I see an advantage of Risk Factor or Browbeat if your opponent does not see it coming, suprise youre dead or let me draw 3 cards. Not to strong but maybe gives your opponent and akward position if its the first time you cast it.

  3. #703

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny Tempel View Post
    Those were my first thoughts too. But hey that means those MTGO lists managed to go 5-0 DESPITE running Risk Factor so the deck must be really good again
    Ok some discussions regarding Risk Factor.
    I have compiled a list of risk factor "list" from recent tournaments (30pax+) which produced good results:
    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20412&d=333710&f=LE
    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20412&d=333698&f=LE
    https://deck.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/201516/show/
    https://deck.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/205471/show/
    https://deck.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/208750/show/
    https://deck.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/193581/show/

    Looking at them we can see that they drive the gameplay in the same "Burn" orientated style.
    They all contain Monestery swiftspears+Stormchasers for creatures & full 8xbolt+ chain lightnings with either 1xfork or fireblast for extra reach.
    This means that most of the time the gameplay comes down to burning the opponent asap & usually u get stuck at the last few points of damage which is where our discussion will begin.

    What if we look at risk factor from another angle, something u cast for 3mana that if resolves becomes 4damage+1flashback use from gy. If it gets countered it's 1counterspell off opponent's hand and 1flashback use from gy.
    Towards the last few turns where we are pushing damage through and opponent starts to stablize, every card we draw becomes that much important, risk factor increases that chance by providing the flashback use which basically trades a useless card (eg.land /delver/daze/fow/even swiftspear which might not be able to get through a blocker). It gives u the option to trade that useless card for 4dmg or Ancestral recall at instant speed. Adding to that, 1additional flashback use might equate to 1pt of dmg for each prowess creature u have on board, and that might mean something.

    Risk factor seems to be a card that might suit burn/aggro tempo style play, acting as more of a all in "fireblast" u kinda card. As for list that runs 4xYP + 2or3x TNN, it does not seem effective enough as it does not contribute to the boardstate tempo style of play where u try to temporarily establish a pseudo board dominance for couple of turns to hit in for damage. But until someone really test it extensively, who knows, it might be useful for some reasons.

    And by the way, not sure why these list plays 17lands(even down to 15) which is less than what we play for the usual UR delver list, so draw more fuel?
    Feel free to comment, lets make UR delver great again.

  4. #704

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Saw 2 UR delver deck made the top 24 at Eternal weekend? Anyone have those list?

  5. #705

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    this is I think a very good list for everybody who still doesnt know where to go with UR:

    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28928&iddeck=239456

    I personally don't like Stifle. Stifle is such a tempo card and UR does not always play tempo, often we are more of a midrange deck and Stifle gets very weak. Also the single Spell Snare feels akward but can be good with Snapcaster, so I see it working as a 1 of in this list. In the board there is Winter Orb which is definitely okay in general but I would not play it in a deck with literally 4 (!!) cc3 drops. You can blow out yourself if you draw 1 Snapcaster and 1 TNN from the top. The rest looks solid.

  6. #706

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME View Post
    this is I think a very good list for everybody who still doesnt know where to go with UR:

    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28928&iddeck=239456

    I personally don't like Stifle. Stifle is such a tempo card and UR does not always play tempo, often we are more of a midrange deck and Stifle gets very weak. Also the single Spell Snare feels akward but can be good with Snapcaster, so I see it working as a 1 of in this list. In the board there is Winter Orb which is definitely okay in general but I would not play it in a deck with literally 4 (!!) cc3 drops. You can blow out yourself if you draw 1 Snapcaster and 1 TNN from the top. The rest looks solid.
    Both IamHANDSOME & I have been discussing about the differnt variants of UR delver for a couple of weeks now.
    I think we looked at 4 different variants of UR delver, all of which are good in their respective meta.

    1)The list IamHANDSOME posted from tcdecks.net, with the stifles/snaps & winter orb in sb. This list basically looks for the RUG opening with mana denial plan, however we find that as most decks runs a more stable manabase now, it will be difficult to disrupt them. Also UR delver threats are weaker than RUG, we do not have sticky threats like nimble mongoose or cheap threats like hooting mandrils. However i find that this version does work well against some non-blue decks that plays heavy cmc cards.

    2)The midrange version running 3xTNN with either a bedlam reveler & 2wastelands. This would play more midrange where the early game is basically bolting (combination of 8bolt effects Bolt/Chain/Forked) the board and keeping a stable manabase and put down a TNN or reveler and play protect the queen. You can also choose cryptic serpent for more tempo & pressure, but you will lose out against decks like Miracles for eg. with their STP effects, while reveler gives you an Ancestral recall to refuel. After our discussion, we think that if you want to go using cryptic serpent, use 4wasteland for the tempo advantage against combo decks like storm/ reanimator.

    3)The explosive version which runs 4xthoughtscour 3xstifle alongside 2xreveler & 2xcryptic serpent and 4delver/4YP/1TNN. We think that this deck could be really explosive when it does work, but it is more hit and misses. If someone has experience on this deck, please feel free to share. I could not find much data on this version.

    4)The newest "burn" list, which focus on running 4xswiftspear/3xstormchaser/3xRisk factor, we have not discuss or test much on this deck, but could be really good against control decks as it plays quick cheap threats and have better reach. Will probably update again in future.

    I would like to give credits to IamHANDSOME for the above discussion to which he has contributed much of his knowledge.
    Cheers

  7. #707

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Does we have discord channel ? With printing risk factor I wanna give UR delver a chanse. Looking for discussion with active players.

  8. #708

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunwardelishes View Post
    Does we have discord channel ? With printing risk factor I wanna give UR delver a chanse. Looking for discussion with active players.
    Got this one in my discord list: https://discord.gg/PxAzw8V

  9. #709

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Might give the risk factor plan a try in some casual testing since it's not an expensive change for me to make, though with snaps getting yet another reprint I'm also tempted to try that route though suspect it will be too slow to really make enough impact.

  10. #710

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    I tested a couple of games vs. Ur Delver with Risk Factor, I was playing UR as a tempo shell and he was playing the Prowess Burn version with 2 Risk Factor. So the card was imho the worst draw he could possibly get. The mirror is very much about removing your opponents creatures and stabilising your threats. Until turn 5 or 6 there was not a single damage being dealt to anybody so any Risk Factor was just a 3 mana spell with 4 damage to my head. He casted it twice in later stages and I always took the damage, if he had a removal instead for my YP or Delver this would have been way better. If you want to go straight to your opponents face Price of Progress is just a much much better card and for all the rest cantrips are doing a great job allready. Risk Factor just feels so underwhelming unless your opponent is on 4 life and then you get to draw instead of killing and if you are tapped out since it costs 3 mana and your opponent has lethal damage it is just akward to have and to play.

  11. #711

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME View Post
    I tested a couple of games vs. Ur Delver with Risk Factor, I was playing UR as a tempo shell and he was playing the Prowess Burn version with 2 Risk Factor. So the card was imho the worst draw he could possibly get. The mirror is very much about removing your opponents creatures and stabilising your threats. Until turn 5 or 6 there was not a single damage being dealt to anybody so any Risk Factor was just a 3 mana spell with 4 damage to my head. He casted it twice in later stages and I always took the damage, if he had a removal instead for my YP or Delver this would have been way better. If you want to go straight to your opponents face Price of Progress is just a much much better card and for all the rest cantrips are doing a great job allready. Risk Factor just feels so underwhelming unless your opponent is on 4 life and then you get to draw instead of killing and if you are tapped out since it costs 3 mana and your opponent has lethal damage it is just akward to have and to play.
    I've done six or seven leagues with a Risk Factor list. The equity in the card comes from the Jump-Start. You would never play a 3 mana deal 4, but, if you can discard a misty rainforest to cast a 3 mana deal 4 it starts to look at lot more appealing.

    That being said, I'm still not sold.

  12. #712

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME View Post
    I tested a couple of games vs. Ur Delver with Risk Factor, I was playing UR as a tempo shell and he was playing the Prowess Burn version with 2 Risk Factor. So the card was imho the worst draw he could possibly get. The mirror is very much about removing your opponents creatures and stabilising your threats. Until turn 5 or 6 there was not a single damage being dealt to anybody so any Risk Factor was just a 3 mana spell with 4 damage to my head. He casted it twice in later stages and I always took the damage, if he had a removal instead for my YP or Delver this would have been way better. If you want to go straight to your opponents face Price of Progress is just a much much better card and for all the rest cantrips are doing a great job allready. Risk Factor just feels so underwhelming unless your opponent is on 4 life and then you get to draw instead of killing and if you are tapped out since it costs 3 mana and your opponent has lethal damage it is just akward to have and to play.
    Hey bro, thank you for the testing on the new Prowess burn version. I have proxied up the version with 3risk factor + 4swiftspear+ 3stormchasers against my UB shadow friend. I think it is difficult for the prowess version to get any creature to stick on the board against any deck with decent removal (push/dismember/STP etc), and if i want to protect the board, i will need to have open mana for pierce or fight with daze which is another turn where risk factor is dead card in hand. Also getting wastelanded by opponent does not help much. I find too few chance where I be having 3mana open at end of opponent turn to burn him.

    In general I think risk factor with the jumpstart mechanic is a great way to translate dead draws into damage late in the game. However in a deck like UR delver where it is really difficult getting to 3lands and using all of them for 1spell, it may not be an ideal home. I really hope one of the people who manages to get success results or top8 would enlighten us on the its use or maybe I am getting the playstyle wrong.

  13. #713

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksummer View Post
    Hey bro, thank you for the testing on the new Prowess burn version. I have proxied up the version with 3risk factor + 4swiftspear+ 3stormchasers against my UB shadow friend. I think it is difficult for the prowess version to get any creature to stick on the board against any deck with decent removal (push/dismember/STP etc), and if i want to protect the board, i will need to have open mana for pierce or fight with daze which is another turn where risk factor is dead card in hand. Also getting wastelanded by opponent does not help much. I find too few chance where I be having 3mana open at end of opponent turn to burn him.

    In general I think risk factor with the jumpstart mechanic is a great way to translate dead draws into damage late in the game. However in a deck like UR delver where it is really difficult getting to 3lands and using all of them for 1spell, it may not be an ideal home. I really hope one of the people who manages to get success results or top8 would enlighten us on the its use or maybe I am getting the playstyle wrong.
    Just an update on further playtesting using the prowess burn version. This time, I tried it against Miracles & Maverick, the creatures does not stick well, but they get the job done enough that the rest of the burn is sufficient to drop opponent to 0. Again I find it difficult to get to 3mana for risk factor, most of the damage was done via prowess triggers & burn, while risk factor would usually be a win-more card, which most of the time exquisite firecraft would have done the job as well. Just a short description of playtest below:

    Went 3-0 against miracles & 1-0 against Maverick

    -Highlights against Miracles
    1)Delver flips real easily off 30+spells deck, together with prowess creatures+ chain lightning managed to chip opponent down to under 9life, opponent has only 1 STPs throughout the game which was not enough. Brainstorms into POP which dealt 2damage off tundra and attacked in with 2 prowess creature which drops opponent to 1life and unable to fow on lightning bolt next turn.

    2)Again Delver flips real easy off the top, able to chip opponent down to under 12life, puts soulscar onto board to which opponent terminus. Opponent's fetchlands & stormchaser onto board afterwards with triggers prowess off cantrip into bolt putting opponent down to 3life, opponent slams counterbalance which resolves. Stormchaser gets STP next turn and cast risk factor which drew 3cards into more gas and opponent snap plows own creature putting him up to 2life. Opponent resolves Jace which fate sealed me. Jumpstarts riskfactor next turn drawing more cantrips which got counterbalance countrered. Opponent continues fate seal to which I draw POP off the top, checks counterbalance using cantrip, cast POP to which opponent brainstorms and finds no 2cmc, killing opponent with tundra onboard.

    -Highlights against Maverick
    1)Loss against maverick after sticking 3 delvers in play and dropping opponent to under 10. Opponent manages to resolve sanctum prelate on1 and puts scryb ranger into play. Goes on to equip SOFI for the win

    1)Mulled to 6 forgots to scry (was too tired then), sticks delver and soulscar onto board and hitting opponent to 9 while bolting opponent's scryb ranger leaving him with 2x noble heirach on board, opponent gsz for 2 which I let resolves holding 2bolt and brainstorm in hand knowing it will be ooze. Double bolts EOT leaving opponent at 3 and have to use ooze to get to 4life before my turn as I would have priority if I drew burn off the top. Draws land off the top and brainstorms into POP, proceeds to win the game with delver attack and POP.

    In summary I kind of change my mind towards traditional slower UR delver running 3xTNN, in that it is too difficult to get a boardstate, TNN+lavamancer is great in fair creature matchups and YP is great against other tempo/control decks but they do not complement each other well, I would play Rug instead then, but Mongoose is just too slow. I will be going with the prowess burn plays for now until wotc decides to give us a 1mana U or R angler or something more resilient (a 1mana 2/2 Shroud/haste clout of dominus creature maybe requires island and/or mountain to be in play or sac? lol )

  14. #714

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    I also want to give an update on my tempo/midrange list, thats the one one I'm playing and put up the best results so far:

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Young Pyromancer
    4 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    2 Preordain
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Chain Lightning
    1 Forked Bolt
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Wooded Foothills
    4 Volcanic Island
    1 Island
    1 Mountain
    4 Wasteland

    I was talking on page 35 about the play pattern and lines UR has to take and I actually feel very comfortable with this list. Since UR has no Gurmag Angler or Hooting Mandrills this trading resources works only if you slam something onto the board which is likely to stick there! So it has to be either YP with FoW backup or TNN so playing 4 TNN is fine in this list because it is very unlikely to be dealt with. I still play it only with 1 Island and 4 Volcanic but I could see putting a second Island for -1 Volcanic in it just to make sure this TNN hits the battlefield no matter what. Also 2 Grim Lavamancer feel very OP against matchups like Elves or D&T so I keep playing them, lets say WotC would print some new card which would be something like Bedlam Reveler but faster I could also see cutting Lavamancer and 1 TNN for those but until the situation in Legacy is like right now you face either control or combo and Delver was never so weak in the history of Legacy I just keep playing 4 TNN to stand a chance.

    Delver is in a position right now with only 2 porpuses imho:
    1. Its the best blue clock you can present turn 1 when playing against combo decks because you hit hard and can disrupt your opponent with counterspells, Wasteland and discard (if you play black).
    2. There is this super strong tempo plan on the play by Delver, Wasteland and Daze which presents one of Legacys most powerful synergie and technologie.
    Since the bannings you need Delver for exactly those 2 points. For the rest Delver is not really good anymore because you face a lot of decks now which play a high amount of removal and can just deal with Delver in such a easy way. Before decks had to deal with Shaman first and then Delver and since decks did not have so many removal spells Delver was a more resilient threat.

    Also the meta feels extremely boring now with the new bannings for me personal. You cant imagine how omnipresent Hymn to Tourach is right now, a card which is soooo unfun to play against because your opponent does not even make a smart choice or decision, the cards are being discarded randomly and its always 2 for 1, just disgusting ^^ I personally feel insulted when people used to say exactly this about Gitaxian Probe but now play with 4 Hymn in their deck and smash it for a good luck 2 for 1. Anyway to face all this 10+ removal decks TNN is maybe right now the most important card to play in that deck. Even Young Pyromancer is very light on removal and all this Snapcaster back a removal, get Snapcaster back with KCommand is soooo insanely positioned and OP right now that you can not go through with normal creatures. Its just that UR Delver does not have anything better yet than YP so you need to max out YP anyway. But I really see why Grixis Delver lists cut it down to 2-3 or split it with Bitterblossom, because YP is not resilient anymore and super nerfed since Probe ban.

    So TL; DR: 4 TNN helps against control A LOT, you can safe up your counter spells for that single Diabolic Edict or only for Terminus. Against combo you only need Delver or YP very early and pitch TNN to FoW. YP is a nerfed fair creature and like your third best creature UR has to offer, so until there are not better creatures printed you play it. Grim Lavamancer is to favor certain creature matchups for you. The rest is pretty standard. Price of Progress remains good but worse than preban so I still feel its a better sideboard than mainboard card.

    greets and see yaa

  15. #715
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,818

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    The problem with running 4 TNN is that it costs 3 mana in a deck with only 18 lands, with 4 of them being Wasteland. Even Grixis Delver pre-ban with DRS didn't run that many copies.

    It's no doubt good against Miracles, because they often don't expose themselves to Wasteland, and getting to 3 mana in that matchup is very likely, but 4 TNN is going to be way too clunky in almost every other matchup.

    My 2 cents, anyway.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  16. #716

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    The problem with running 4 TNN is that it costs 3 mana in a deck with only 18 lands, with 4 of them being Wasteland. Even Grixis Delver pre-ban with DRS didn't run that many copies.

    It's no doubt good against Miracles, because they often don't expose themselves to Wasteland and getting to 3 mana in that matchup is very likely, but 4 TNN is going to be way too clunky in almost every other matchup.

    My 2 cents, anyway.
    yes I know but I dont see how this deck stands a chance without 4 TNN against GControl and Miracles. I mean you can always pitch it to FoW if you have to many or shuffle them away. I recently lost against Canadian by drawing 3 copies of TNN and not having 3 mana but thats the risk I take because in Delver mirrors its more about whos on the play and on the draw. Ur Delver is just extremely limited in its options and not what it used to be this extremely fast aggro/tempo deck so if you dont have Underground Seas or Tropical Island you need to adapt the list by maximizing the best UR creatures out. I think Legacy in general became much much closer to Modern since the bannings then ever before. The amount of interaction is just on a much lower level and right now decks are like "you have good or bad matchups". Deathrite Shaman gave the meta this edge of you can make certain bad matchups still okay because of the way Shaman used to interact with your opponents GY. And in this environment Ur is this very linear and medicore built which is either heavy on burn spells or tries to maximizes on good cards while relying on a decent mana base. Grixis Delver has much better cards but their manabase is especially against Lands and Loam much worse so Ur can have the edge in those matchups.

  17. #717
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,818

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    I just play my Sligh list, which has basically been the same for ages. The metagame feels much more favorable to me now, with ANT actually being a winnable matchup again, no more DRS to accelerate other decks and give them a maindeck source of lifegain, and no more CounterTop lock to have to deal with.

    I haven't played magic at all this year except for two times at the local shop this month, but I went 3-0 (first round bye) and 4-0 so far against tier decks, so it feels to me like the Sligh approach is really well positioned right now.

    For reference, my matchups were Grixis Painter, UB Shadow, ANT, D&T, Miracles, and Infect.

    EDIT: Despite not playing against Grixis Control yet (only 1 player at my shop was playing it), that matchup is a really good one for the Sligh approach. Turbo Depths is my worst matchup, though.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  18. #718

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I just play my Sligh list, which has basically been the same for ages. The metagame feels much more favorable to me now, with ANT actually being a winnable matchup again, no more DRS to accelerate other decks and give them a maindeck source of lifegain, and no more CounterTop lock to have to deal with.

    I haven't played magic at all this year except for two times at the local shop this month, but I went 3-0 (first round bye) and 4-0 so far against tier decks, so it feels to me like the Sligh approach is really well positioned right now.

    For reference, my matchups were Grixis Painter, UB Shadow, ANT, D&T, Miracles, and Infect.

    EDIT: Despite not playing against Grixis Control yet (only 1 player at my shop was playing it), that matchup is a really good one for the Sligh approach. Turbo Depths is my worst matchup, though.
    Miracles did not loose anything by the bannings while Ur Delver/Sligh lost Probe so objectively speaking the 1-4 damage Probe did if it turned up are gone which is a clear disadvantage. And against Miracles I had often games which were about that last 2-3 damage and my opponent stabilized because my hand was empty. GControl how its designed right now does not need Shaman because what they will do is Push, Bolt, Snap Bolt, KCommand and get Strix or Snapcaster and will deal with every creature you have, before they played the deck not this grindy and more midrange like because of Shaman which we always Bolted. If you play 4 Daze and 4 FoW your likely to draw 2-3 of them, while they can actually play around Daze (on the play) which means FoW is practically the only card which prevents them of doing that. Also Hymn to Tourach is a pain for Ur, if you Daze it and your opponent has the FoW you wasted 3 cards for a single card and are likely to discard maybe the land you bounced making a comeback quite hard. Burn works only if they are in burn range but not when they are at 15 life. Also they play more basics which means PoP is also weakened in average of 2 damage at least. Painter will always be a good matchup for a Bolt deck since you can Bolt Painter and the combo does not work without it. Infect is also favorable if you are experienced with the deck since the amount of removal is there to deal with any creature in our turns. D&T is very draw depending, if you start with 2 Volcanics and 1 is Wastelanded while the other is Ported the matchup can be horrible. Ub Shadow is also favorable if you are heavy on Burn, this should be self explaining. ANT is only favorable if you draw a lot of counter spells. I played this matchup a lot and I can tell if you have 1 FoW and 2 Daze in hand they will let you discard your FoW while playing around Daze. If you have no counterspell in hand they sometimes go of turn 2 or 3 and you normally dont kill them before especially not without Probe.

    I am actually not saying that the deck is bad, but I dont see it favorable against neither Miracles nor Grixis Control, should be slightly negative. Against most of the combo decks the fast version plays only 8 counterspells which are often not enough, so also Reanimator, ANT, S&S and such are slightly negative. Especially against S&S Probe showed you how to navigate and when to Ponder/Brainstorm which was also a deal against combo. Against the rest of the field I cant even say, the deck was always very very bad against Chalice of the Void or bigger fringe decks unless Price of Progress hits hard soooo I dont see how good the deck can be. But I mean one thing is true, that ability to outrace any deck is actually possible so I give it that point.

  19. #719

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Been testing for quite a while now with Preordain as my second 4-of cantrip, relegating Ponder to a 2-of. I personally think that for an aggressive UR build, Preordain is straight up better than Ponder. I'm playing with 4 bolt, 4 chain, 2 forked, 2 PoP and being able to just scry my way towards more bolts seems to be a lot better than looking at 3 cards, often only seeing 1 cards I actually want, or shuffling. Interested in other's opinions on this, but for me I find I can much more consistently dig for damage cards using Preordain.

  20. #720
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2006
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    2,818

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME View Post
    Miracles did not loose anything by the bannings while Ur Delver/Sligh lost Probe so objectively speaking the 1-4 damage Probe did if it turned up are gone which is a clear disadvantage. And against Miracles I had often games which were about that last 2-3 damage and my opponent stabilized because my hand was empty. GControl how its designed right now does not need Shaman because what they will do is Push, Bolt, Snap Bolt, KCommand and get Strix or Snapcaster and will deal with every creature you have, before they played the deck not this grindy and more midrange like because of Shaman which we always Bolted. If you play 4 Daze and 4 FoW your likely to draw 2-3 of them, while they can actually play around Daze (on the play) which means FoW is practically the only card which prevents them of doing that. Also Hymn to Tourach is a pain for Ur, if you Daze it and your opponent has the FoW you wasted 3 cards for a single card and are likely to discard maybe the land you bounced making a comeback quite hard. Burn works only if they are in burn range but not when they are at 15 life. Also they play more basics which means PoP is also weakened in average of 2 damage at least. Painter will always be a good matchup for a Bolt deck since you can Bolt Painter and the combo does not work without it. Infect is also favorable if you are experienced with the deck since the amount of removal is there to deal with any creature in our turns. D&T is very draw depending, if you start with 2 Volcanics and 1 is Wastelanded while the other is Ported the matchup can be horrible. Ub Shadow is also favorable if you are heavy on Burn, this should be self explaining. ANT is only favorable if you draw a lot of counter spells. I played this matchup a lot and I can tell if you have 1 FoW and 2 Daze in hand they will let you discard your FoW while playing around Daze. If you have no counterspell in hand they sometimes go of turn 2 or 3 and you normally dont kill them before especially not without Probe.

    I am actually not saying that the deck is bad, but I dont see it favorable against neither Miracles nor Grixis Control, should be slightly negative. Against most of the combo decks the fast version plays only 8 counterspells which are often not enough, so also Reanimator, ANT, S&S and such are slightly negative. Especially against S&S Probe showed you how to navigate and when to Ponder/Brainstorm which was also a deal against combo. Against the rest of the field I cant even say, the deck was always very very bad against Chalice of the Void or bigger fringe decks unless Price of Progress hits hard soooo I dont see how good the deck can be. But I mean one thing is true, that ability to outrace any deck is actually possible so I give it that point.
    Miracles did lose with bannings though... they lost Sensei's Divining Top. The Miracles matchup still isn't great, but not having to worry about the hard softlock of CounterTop makes the matchup significantly better than it was before.

    I realize you are talking about them not losing anything in the most recent bannings, but losing Probe is honestly not as big of a deal for this deck as it was for ANT and Grixis Delver. You lose a couple of points of free damage, which matters, but not to the extent of major significance. Stormchaser wasn't a very good card in the first place, and Swiftspear is still a perfectly good and legitimate threat. The Miracles matchup will always come down to the last few points of damage because that's how the dynamic of that matchup shakes out. At least now, the threat of being locked out behind a Counterbalance is much less likely.

    It's difficult for me to talk about matchups like Grixis Control in a vague way, because I play Sligh, not traditional UR Delver. I can totally understand why that matchup would be difficult for traditional UR Delver... you're far more dependent on creature damage, lack the density of one drops to overload their spot removal early game, and don't have the same burn density to close the game out. Hymn to Tourach is certainly problematic, but if they are attacking your hand, they aren't attacking your board... although this is less of an issue for my Sligh list, which dumps its hand more quickly. Basically, my Sligh version gives up game one percentages against combo decks to greatly improve my fair matchups, so decks like Grixis Control and D&T become great for me.

    The Grixis Control deck, even with basics, is still going to regularly take 4 or more damage from a well-timed PoP.

    ANT isn't a great matchup, but them losing Probe slows their deck down considerably. They can still turn 1 you, they can still turn 2 you, but it's much less consistent and much riskier for them. Sometimes they don't have it until turn 4. Racing them is a legitimate plan again. They also lost Cabal Therapy, so they can no longer destroy a double FoW hand with a single discard spell before going off. The matchup still isn't great, but it is considerably better now without them having Probe.

    The Chalice matchups are only bad if they have/resolve Chalice on turn 1 or 2. They are easily beatable otherwise. I have 4 Smash to Smithereens in my sideboard, so I'm often able to beat Chalice postboard. My D&T opponent resolved two Chalices against me postboard, on turns 2 and 3, that I conveniently had two Smash's for (I Brainstorm'd into the second copy).

    What I am saying is that my Sligh list is favorable against all of its fair matchups by giving away percentages against combo matchups in game one, including Miracles and Grixis Control. Since the combo matchups aren't actually that good for traditional UR Delver in game one anyway, I'm perfectly fine with making that tradeoff. I believe that doing this makes Sligh much better positioned in the current meta than traditional UR Delver is.

    I think if you're going to go away from traditional UR Delver and into a more tempo-based approach, you would be better off going RUG or Grixis instead.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)