[DTB] U/R Delver

[Jonny Tempel]

I like the matchup descriptions in the primer! Nice work guys :).

Speaking of UR's matchups, what is everyone's opinion on the Sneak and Show matchup? There's a discussion erupting in the Show and Tell FB group - it seems like in MA pateuglow and Jerry think it's heavily in favor of UR Delver, whereas in Madison John and I think it's 80/20 in favor of Sneak. We can't both be right :).

Here's how I board for Sneak and Show:

In:
+1 Flusterstorm
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Sulfuric Vortex (on the play)

Out:
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-2 Price of Progress
-1 Forked Bolt (on the play)

My experience is that I can usually count on finding one Force of Will, but it's not enough to get the job done. My opponent is always able to either Force back on-curve, or wait an extra turn and Pierce/Flusterstorm. The few times I win this matchup, it's when I'm on the play and can put together a turn-4 kill. Is the issue that I'm not reaching deep enough in the board to cards like Pithing Needle (which I don't run)? Is running Thunderous Wrath and pushing hard for a turn-3 kill the way to go?

This matchup is still a big puzzle to me - I'm at 2-6 lifetime record against Show and Tell, one of the few matchups that's negative for me in the past half year or so.

Would be a bit easier if you could post your sideboard.
I always bring in Force #4, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce and 2 Pyroblast. If i'm not running a Clique main, i would bring in that card too.

[Smuggo]

I like the matchup descriptions in the primer! Nice work guys :).

Speaking of UR's matchups, what is everyone's opinion on the Sneak and Show matchup? There's a discussion erupting in the Show and Tell FB group - it seems like in MA pateuglow and Jerry think it's heavily in favor of UR Delver, whereas in Madison John and I think it's 80/20 in favor of Sneak. We can't both be right :).

Here's how I board for Sneak and Show:

In:
+1 Flusterstorm
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Sulfuric Vortex (on the play)

Out:
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-2 Price of Progress
-1 Forked Bolt (on the play)

My experience is that I can usually count on finding one Force of Will, but it's not enough to get the job done. My opponent is always able to either Force back on-curve, or wait an extra turn and Pierce/Flusterstorm. The few times I win this matchup, it's when I'm on the play and can put together a turn-4 kill. Is the issue that I'm not reaching deep enough in the board to cards like Pithing Needle (which I don't run)? Is running Thunderous Wrath and pushing hard for a turn-3 kill the way to go?

This matchup is still a big puzzle to me - I'm at 2-6 lifetime record against Show and Tell, one of the few matchups that's negative for me in the past half year or so.

My experience is that vs SnS we are slightly unfavoured G1 but fairly well favoured post-board.

For me, I board in the 4th FoW, flusterstorm and pyroblast, pithing needles (I run 2) and 2 sulfuric vortex and board out bedlam reveller, PoP, stormchasers and usually a chain lightning. You've usually got a bit more time vs this matchup compared to say BR Reanimator so the key is have a counterspell ready and just get some efficient beats on the board early. Git Probes are invaluable to get you hand intelligence so you know what to name with pithing needle and what to save your countermagic for. Most importantly, remember that you can block Grisel with a flipped delver and then bolt it before damage to prevent the life gain. If they ever gain life from him you've basically lost your chance to win so you need to make sure you have the cards in hand to deal with a resolved Grisel on the board.

[Ozymandias1989]

Hello first post here, thanks for the primer!

I decided to switch to Legacy after Gitaxian Probe was banned in modern and I couldn't play UR Delver there anymore.

I will be attending my first large Legacy tournament at the end if the month and could use some advice on my deck :

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Stormchaser Mage
1 Bedlam Reveler
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Price of Progress
4 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Fireblast

Sideboard :
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Null Rod
1 Dismember
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Rough // Tumble
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grim Lavamancer

I've really not been a fan of Bedlam Reveler in testing compared to True-Name Nemesis but I don't want to kill my own creatures with Rough//Tumble. Should I cut the Grim Lavamancer and add either another price of progress or Pyroblast / Flusterstorm? Do I really need Sulfur Elemental with Rough in the board, it seems good against thalia but that's about it? I really want to keep Jitte as it is my favourite card.

Also any advice when playing the deck IRL?

Much obliged

[TheManWithaPlan]

Hello first post here, thanks for the primer!

I decided to switch to Legacy after Gitaxian Probe was banned in modern and I couldn't play UR Delver there anymore.

I will be attending my first large Legacy tournament at the end if the month and could use some advice on my deck :

List

I've really not been a fan of Bedlam Reveler in testing compared to True-Name Nemesis but I don't want to kill my own creatures with Rough//Tumble. Should I cut the Grim Lavamancer and add either another price of progress or Pyroblast / Flusterstorm? Do I really need Sulfur Elemental with Rough in the board, it seems good against thalia but that's about it? I really want to keep Jitte as it is my favourite card.

Also any advice when playing the deck IRL?

Much obliged

Welcome the the forum and to Legacy!

As for your list, it looks pretty solid. I am not generally a fan of Jitte in Delver decks in general due to it being very mana heavy and you not having an abundance of creatures to equip it to. If your local meta is stuffed with Sulfur Elemental and Monastery Mentor, then I would like Sulfur Elemental, otherwise it doesn't do anything and Clique would probably be a better option. I recommend keeping Grim Lavamancer, due to it just being able to win games all on its own. If you prefer to play True-Name Nemesis over Bedlam Reveler, I would opt to play Sudden Demise over Rough/Tumble.

Best of luck in the event!

[paradigm72]

I second TMWAP's suggestion of Grim Lavamancer and True-Name Nemesis being strong inclusions. To me, they're worth dropping Rough // Tumble which would otherwise be great. In its place, I love playing a 1x Pyrokinesis in the board as my sweeper - that card has bailed me out of so many situations. Being free is excellent in tempo matchups like Delver and D+T, where you don't have extra mana to spend, and you are often boarding Force of Will out anyway so giving up a card is acceptable. It's pretty common for it to be an even 2-for-2 trade, but a huge tempo gain because you spent zero mana and they spent at least two.

I think I've finally turned a corner on understanding the Delver mirror over the past few months. Previously I struggled a lot with it, but lately I'm hitting 65% win rate against a mix of Grixis and BUG, mostly by being more patient and trying to one-for-one them while chipping in damage. I'm starting to play this matchup the opposite of the way I play Miracles (where I blitz all out), and instead try to trade resources carefully and not go down cards or get caught by Daze. It seems like our basic lands and extra removal allow us to stay in the game for a surprisingly long time. Goyf/Angler are obviously the big risk to that plan, but even when they land we have 8+ threats that can go over them and race. Price of Progress is usually good for 4 damage even against Wasteland/Daze tricks, and that can be enough to finish them off.

[Smuggo]

I've really not been a fan of Bedlam Reveler in testing compared to True-Name Nemesis but I don't want to kill my own creatures with Rough//Tumble. Should I cut the Grim Lavamancer and add either another price of progress or Pyroblast / Flusterstorm? Do I really need Sulfur Elemental with Rough in the board, it seems good against thalia but that's about it? I really want to keep Jitte as it is my favourite card.

Also any advice when playing the deck IRL?

Much obliged

I would drop Jitte, it is far too slow and hard to use in our deck effectively. A second sulfuric vortex is a must imo. On the play especially, it is really strong against a wide range of decks and often just pushes our damage over the edge to win the game and it puts a clock on grindy control decks.

Depends on your meta but I have dropped Grafdiggers because it's just too narrow and graveyard decks aren't all that common atm except for B/R and you have better tools against that deck anyway. Winter orb, null rod and pithing are all great options that hit miracles and a number of other decks.

As for playing, my main advice would be just don't waste your brainstorms and remember FoW is really bad in this deck (but essential for combo) and should be got rid of as soon as you know you don't absolutely need it.

[Smuggo]

I second TMWAP's suggestion of Grim Lavamancer and True-Name Nemesis being strong inclusions. To me, they're worth dropping Rough // Tumble which would otherwise be great. In its place, I love playing a 1x Pyrokinesis in the board as my sweeper - that card has bailed me out of so many situations. Being free is excellent in tempo matchups like Delver and D+T, where you don't have extra mana to spend, and you are often boarding Force of Will out anyway so giving up a card is acceptable. It's pretty common for it to be an even 2-for-2 trade, but a huge tempo gain because you spent zero mana and they spent at least two.

I think I've finally turned a corner on understanding the Delver mirror over the past few months. Previously I struggled a lot with it, but lately I'm hitting 65% win rate against a mix of Grixis and BUG, mostly by being more patient and trying to one-for-one them while chipping in damage. I'm starting to play this matchup the opposite of the way I play Miracles (where I blitz all out), and instead try to trade resources carefully and not go down cards or get caught by Daze. It seems like our basic lands and extra removal allow us to stay in the game for a surprisingly long time. Goyf/Angler are obviously the big risk to that plan, but even when they land we have 8+ threats that can go over them and race. Price of Progress is usually good for 4 damage even against Wasteland/Daze tricks, and that can be enough to finish them off.

Yeah I have been thinking of pyrokinesis as an option. I have sulfur elemental atm but I seem to never actually end up playing vs D&T. Pyrokinesis has more versatility which is good.

As for delver mirror, I have always felt favoured for those games, we are just faster usually and other delvers can't keep up with the damage we lay down. Main thing is just to mulligan right. Having too many lands in these matchups is really bad as we need to just be throwing damage down constantly to race them.

[kamikaze360]

So, I am having tooons of trouble with all this BUG midrange nonsense. They have basics to fetch to play around PoP (our supposed trump card) and removal for days with Fatal Push, Decay, Dismember, Strix, Snapcaster, etc. Not to mention Tarmogoyf coming down to clean up the mess. Anyone else having similar experiences? What to do?

[Hanni]

So, I am having tooons of trouble with all this BUG midrange nonsense. They have basics to fetch to play around PoP (our supposed trump card) and removal for days with Fatal Push, Decay, Dismember, Strix, Snapcaster, etc. Not to mention Tarmogoyf coming down to clean up the mess. Anyone else having similar experiences? What to do?

More aggression, more burn, less blue cards. The list in my sig for R/u Sligh crushes all of this BUG midrange nonsense... maybe take some ideas from that. Guide, Rift Bolt, Forked Bolt, etc.

[CabalTherapy]

So, I am having tooons of trouble with all this BUG midrange nonsense. They have basics to fetch to play around PoP (our supposed trump card) and removal for days with Fatal Push, Decay, Dismember, Strix, Snapcaster, etc. Not to mention Tarmogoyf coming down to clean up the mess. Anyone else having similar experiences? What to do?

I can second Hanni.
Goblin Guide makes them sweat and Forked Bolt is a great addition to the main.

Now that the meta has shifted to more midrage decks, UR should play out its advantages even more. I cannot see a reason not running 12 cc1 drops in this deck. You don't want to Ponder on T1 or make fetch>go-moves. This deck
needs to pressure the opponent as early as t1 and that makes it the best Delverdeck/aggro for me nowadays.

[Stuuch]

Hi guys, just went 5-0 with this pile on modo. Nothing new to say except I wont be dropping Fows to just three copies main deck any time soon. I know it´s bad in this deck but still it gives us % against the field when glass cannon decks go all in in game 1. It´s also nice to have back up for your Price when you know your going to win. Here is the deck I played:

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Delver
4 Swiftspear
3 Stormchaser
1 Clique
1 Reveler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Probe
4 Fow
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast

Sideboard:

2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Surgical Extracrtion
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Pyrokinesis

Matc ups were:

2-1 vs Belcher
2-0 vs 4c control
2-0 vs Elves
2-1 vs Br reanimator
2-0 vs 12 post

Keep up the good work here!

[BigBopper]

@Stuuch: nice job! I dunno how the magic online meta is but I never like to see FoW in preboard games against unknown opponents. But I guess we don't have to argue about 1 card being shifted between MD and SB.
Tryed out Thunderous Wrath and although it's a nice effect I'm not sold on the card at all. I remember when it first came out and people were hyped about it Andrew Schneider, who had a lot success with this deck at the time wrote this article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...In-Legacy.html. I think his statement concerning the card is still valid. That being said I wonder if Snapcaster is worth including again. You mainly wanna flashback Bolt or PoP but also a Flusterstorm, Smash to Smithereens or Pyroblast postboard don't seem bad. I've seen lists that trade him for revealer, although he's much worse against Miracles. Thoughts?

[Smuggo]

Been experimenting a bit with Harsh Mentor on cockatrice and so far it seems good. I am running two main in place of two goblin guides with a third in the side (so my creature lineup is 4 delver, 4 swiftspear, 2 stormchaser, 2 mentor and 1 bedlam). It definitely is a top target for removal but when they don't have that removal or they direct it straight at your t1 swiftspear/delver, then he really does some work. Even when he's only hitting fetches it racks up the damage rather fast as for many decks that means taking 3 damage just to get 1 mana source. He seems to be getting viewed by opponents as being something they have to deal with asap, which often sees them play FoW or other annoying countermagic which honestly I am fine with as it means they get card disadvantage from force and don't have that counter ready for something more dangerous like price. So, seems good so far but will need to play him more to really see how much difference he can make as yet to try vs D&T, metalworker, dark depths and other decks that will be heavily taxed by him.

[Ozymandias1989]

I would drop Jitte, it is far too slow and hard to use in our deck effectively. A second sulfuric vortex is a must imo. On the play especially, it is really strong against a wide range of decks and often just pushes our damage over the edge to win the game and it puts a clock on grindy control decks.

Depends on your meta but I have dropped Grafdiggers because it's just too narrow and graveyard decks aren't all that common atm except for B/R and you have better tools against that deck anyway.

Thanks everyone for your feedback!

I'll drop Jitte-chan in favour of Grim Lavamancer, he usually kills something when drawn whereas Jitte has a herd time getting equipped. Pyrokinesis is a nice alternative to Rough//Tumble and it can deal 4 close out the game, was thinking about Thunderous Wrath but this seems better.

3 Surgical Extraction is what I started with so I'm fine going back to that.

1 True-Name Nemesis or 2?

Winter orb didn't seem to do all that much in testing but it is clearly a strong card, as is Pithing Needle, but the question is what do I cut for them?

Thanks again!

Mainboard :
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Stormchaser Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Price of Progress
4 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Fireblast

Sideboard :
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Null Rod
1 Dismember
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pyrokinesis
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Grim Lavamancer

[Smuggo]

I would say cut a dismember for a pithing needle and otherwise your side seems good. The life cost of using dismember is too high imo. Obviously it is always dependent on your local meta though so just play in local tournaments and read about them as much as you can and adjust the side accordingly. I think 3x surgical is a bit much personally and you could go for a second needle or something else in its place.

[Jonny Tempel]

@Ozimandias1989:
Please keep in mind Pyrokinesis can only hit creatures and not players.

@Smuggo:
Against which decks have you tested Mentor?

[Smuggo]

@Ozimandias1989:
Please keep in mind Pyrokinesis can only hit creatures and not players.

@Smuggo:
Against which decks have you tested Mentor?

Vs BUG delver, 4c delver, miracles, merfolk and loam where I've actually seen one and cast it. Won them all except the miracles match. Have been a load of others where it was in the deck but I just never saw it.

[Ozymandias1989]

@Ozimandias1989:
Please keep in mind Pyrokinesis can only hit creatures and not players

Oh! Okay then.

@Smuggo
Can Dismember really be cut? I thought it was a must have against Tarmogoyf?

If I had to choose between Pithing Needle and Winter Orb what would you recommend?

[Rocco111]

I have also built up a test list running Harsh Mentor and Soul-Scar Mage.
Even though I would need more games under my belt with these guys, I would totally see a case for each :
Soul-Scar needs us to switch some cards (Chain <> Forked Bolt or maybe even running Electrickery MD again -like back in the days of YPyro/DTT) but gave some unexpected situations which made me think twice about it (i.e. SSMage on the field, opponent transforms DarkDepth > MaritLage, I Bolt Marit to make sure it is not lethal >>> I was able to stale the game for a while, giving me more chance to find an answer to win the game).

Harsh Mentor also hits the opponent using Maze of Ith, Wasteland, A.Vial, when Equipping, Griselbrand, RishPort... I mean there is a lot of cases in which the card can justify its spot.
But again, I think to make full use of it, the list may need to be more "control" than "burn" imho.

[Smuggo]

Oh! Okay then.

@Smuggo
Can Dismember really be cut? I thought it was a must have against Tarmogoyf?

If I had to choose between Pithing Needle and Winter Orb what would you recommend?

Again, highly meta-dependent but I have found that since fatal push came about I am seeing less Goyfs on the table than before and, in any event, you should probably just ignore goyf and go over it.

At the moment I run 2 needle and a winter orb and no null rod. Null rod is excellent of course but needle has wider application against more decks. Winter orb is narrower and primarily intended to disrupt miracles but can also be used against other mana-hungry decks.