[DTB] U/R Delver

[Smuggo]

I was also thinking about Set Adrift but I rather prefer something I can cast at instant speed. I want to use it against lands.
BTW: what do you guys think about Reality Shift in SB against lands, S&S, reanimator and maybe eldrazi? Is it insane?

I like the idea of Set Adrift mainboard actually because it gives me a bit more confidence about playing into an unknown deck without any counter magic in my opening hand. There's nothing worse than seeing a ancient tomb into T1 chalice resolve and knowing you can do absolutely nothing about it. And anything that can work around that and counterbalance or any other annoying card on the board is definitely worth thinking about. Reality shift also seems like a decent siderboard card, maybe better than vapor snag actually as again it is easier to get around counterbalance, chalice, prelate etc... and deals with its target permanently.

What are people's thoughts on those game 1 hands? I am always agonising over whether I should aggressively mull for countermagic, even when I've got an otherwise amazing hand.

[CabalTherapy]

I see this as big drawback.

I have the experience that when you start pressuring opponents with Guides, even on the draw, their potential card advantage is insignificant because they won't be able to
play out their entire hands that fast.

[Agrippa91]

I was also thinking about Set Adrift but I rather prefer something I can cast at instant speed. I want to use it against lands.
BTW: what do you guys think about Reality Shift in SB against lands, S&S, reanimator and maybe eldrazi? Is it insane?

Are you playing the reactive UR version or why do you want your stuff to be instant? Set adrift is not great against lands, but it can deal with Marit Lage should one of your 8 fliers block it for 1 turn or should you "force" them to crack via PoP (most lands players will do even if it's not lethal). But yeah, post-sb I definitely prefer Vapor Snag which imo is superior to Reality Shift. Let's talk about the matchups you mentioned:
lands: superior
S&S: none of these two cards should be brought in since they Emrakul and Sneak Attack can't be targeted by this and Griseldaddy just draws them cards in response. Flusterstorms and Pyroblasts are the sideboard cards you want.
Reanimator: I'd only suggest Bouncing their creatures if they don't play blue and thus can't draw out of it via FoW (draw 7 in response with Griselbrand which is their default creature). Against blue reanimator your pyroblasts are far better than bounce, mostly against opposing FoWs and against Careful Study/Brainstorm.
Eldrazi: Both these cards seem pretty medoicre against Eldrazi and have their ups and downs. It just seems like a really bad Pongify though. The way to beat them still is Smash to Smithereens, Price of Progress and fast flyers, perhaps stalling with TNN if you play that.

[jattra]

Are you playing the reactive UR version or why do you want your stuff to be instant? Set adrift is not great against lands, but ...

I am playing the prowess build. You just nailed that. Set Adrift is not good against lands. Imo, it's uncastable before turn 4 and only sorcery speed.
Vapor Snag is certainly good against lands.
I understand the strategy to fight reanimate and sneak attack with counter magic but I wanted to have some kind of safety net if that strategy fails.

[Agrippa91]

I dunno about "turn 4", but yeah, it's really there against creatures that cost 2+ mana and random artifacts and enchantment lock pieces. Unlike Reveler it also pitches to FoW, I enjoy playing a deck that just doesn't have dead cards against combo game 1 :D

It's pretty much common consensus that it's the wrong approach to try to fight decks that cheat Griselbrand into play after they have Griselbrand out. It's been tried and it just never is good unless they don't play blue and thus have no way to draw into counters.

[Whitefaces]

Yeah, if you're planning to set a Griselbrand adrift you're gonna have a bad time.

I like the card, it can get you out of a Counterbalance lock crucially (until they show you a Terminus...)

[Smuggo]

I dunno about "turn 4", but yeah, it's really there against creatures that cost 2+ mana and random artifacts and enchantment lock pieces. Unlike Reveler it also pitches to FoW, I enjoy playing a deck that just doesn't have dead cards against combo game 1 :D

It's pretty much common consensus that it's the wrong approach to try to fight decks that cheat Griselbrand into play after they have Griselbrand out. It's been tried and it just never is good unless they don't play blue and thus have no way to draw into counters.

I dunno, I find that with so much direct damage, goading them into pay 7 life to draw can be beneficial in the right circumstances. We have so much burn that if you can get them to greedily search for a force to stop a bounce we can often follow it up with lethal as they'll be in a position where they can no longer afford the 7 life.

[CabalTherapy]

Vapor Snag is a good one. Bouncing one of those Delve creatures is pure juice.

btw: Hanni, your inbox is full.

[Agrippa91]

I dunno, I find that with so much direct damage, goading them into pay 7 life to draw can be beneficial in the right circumstances. We have so much burn that if you can get them to greedily search for a force to stop a bounce we can often follow it up with lethal as they'll be in a position where they can no longer afford the 7 life.

They don't have to pay the life, you know how good a 7/7 flying lifelink creature on t1-3 is against us? Bounce is only good in the rare corner cases where they either brick on counterspells (unlikely) or are at such a low life total that you can burn them out in response (not impossible, but also unlikely).
I'm not gonna hinder you any further though, if you want to play it try it out yourself.

[Smuggo]

They don't have to pay the life, you know how good a 7/7 flying lifelink creature on t1-3 is against us? Bounce is only good in the rare corner cases where they either brick on counterspells (unlikely) or are at such a low life total that you can burn them out in response (not impossible, but also unlikely).
I'm not gonna hinder you any further though, if you want to play it try it out yourself.

Yes they're totally valid points. I have however managed to fight through a resolved Grisel before. T1/2 resolved is almost always a scooper but realistically after battles over things resolving they actually get it down by T3 more often, which means we have a chance when on the play. It is very possible that by t3 or sometimes even turn 2 we can get the opponent down to 10-11 life which puts them in range

I've had a couple games against SnS where I've got them down to approx half their life total before Grisel hits the board and then sent removal at him and forced an activation, only to follow up with more damage to the face in response to get the kill. It obviously requires a fair bit of luck to have access to enough bolts and that aggressive start as well. But if you have have vapor snag you can force that reaction with just one card and one mana, rather than potentially 2 or even 3 bolt-like spells. I'm not saying it's easy or likely, but I wouldn't just discount being able to pull off those sorts of things. I'll try it out online when I get the chance and see, but swapping a git probe or forked bolt for it doesn't seem like it would cripple you, though of course fluster and pyroblast/red elemental are your ideal sideboard options there.

[TheManWithaPlan]

Going to try out a Thunderous Wrath in place of a Chain Lightning tonight. Apparently it's been gaining some popularity, so I want to see how I feel with it in practice. As for Reveler, the last time I played UR Delver I didn't ever get to cast it, however I would like a bigger sample size to make a better decision. I'll share my thoughts about these 2 cards after tonight.

[paradigm72]

Anybody have experience against the newer RG Lands build with 4 Ghost Quarter instead of 4 Rishadan Port? I got crushed yesterday by this build, and it felt like I would have won if he'd been on Ports. Even though we have basics to fight against Ghost Quarter, it allows them to play around Price of Progress so much better because they constantly sac their nonbasics, instead of keeping 2 extra in play for each Port activation. I was only able to PoP twice for 4 + 6 before getting all my lands GQed/Wasted.

[TheManWithaPlan]

To follow up on Thunderous Wrath and Bedlam Reveler, I was not impressed. For Thunderous Wrath, I felt it was quite poor. Getting it stuck in my hand was just depressing. I did get to miracle it once and even then it wasn't that impressive. I just feel like it is a stronger Lightning Bolt that you just can't cast. As for Reveler, I again didn't see it very much, however I just don't like it being stuck in my hand.

A general statement I could make that applies to both of these is that I just don't want cards in this deck that have an extremely high ceiling but in turn have a very low floor. I just want my deck to be as streamlined as it can be, as I just don't like how these cards can be extremely clunky and can actually cause you to lose games.

Back to good old Grim Lavamancer for me.

[Chatto]

(...)What are people's thoughts on those game 1 hands? I am always agonising over whether I should aggressively mull for countermagic, even when I've got an otherwise amazing hand.

I will only mull for counters if I really need it, for instance vs combo.

Anybody have experience against the newer RG Lands build with 4 Ghost Quarter instead of 4 Rishadan Port? I got crushed yesterday by this build, and it felt like I would have won if he'd been on Ports. Even though we have basics to fight against Ghost Quarter, it allows them to play around Price of Progress so much better because they constantly sac their nonbasics, instead of keeping 2 extra in play for each Port activation. I was only able to PoP twice for 4 + 6 before getting all my lands GQed/Wasted.

I play RGCL myself, and just one piece of advice: the deck is made to kill your average Delver-deck. Fast hands are the way to go, and just hope for the best.

(...) A general statement I could make that applies to both of these is that I just don't want cards in this deck that have an extremely high ceiling but in turn have a very low floor. I just want my deck to be as streamlined as it can be, as I just don't like how these cards can be extremely clunky and can actually cause you to lose games.

Back to good old Grim Lavamancer for me.

I have the same feeling about Reveler (already down to one), and I think it would apply to Wrath as well. Thing is that people either don't care about those issues, or play the deck better (which in my case could be it ). I was also thinking about maindecking Grim Lavamancer, as a two of. What does your current build look like?

[Jonny Tempel]

So a quick question, Blood Moon worth it or not as a sideboard card?
Is it just to slow?

[CabalTherapy]

So a quick question, Blood Moon worth it or not as a sideboard card?
Is it just to slow?

Generally I would say way too slow but luckily since there is no standardized list of UR, it might come handy in the more conrollish builds with more lands and TNNs.
I wouldnt recommend it though playing it in the list that was propagated by Mengucci or Jonathan Alexander because I think the MUs where Moon comes in can also
be tacked with other cards.

[Jonny Tempel]

Generally I would say way too slow but luckily since there is no standardized list of UR, it might come handy in the more conrollish builds with more lands and TNNs.
I wouldnt recommend it though playing it in the list that was propagated by Mengucci or Jonathan Alexander because I think the MUs where Moon comes in can also
be tacked with other cards.

The has been my impression too. I was just asking because a guy at my LGS brought up that card for discussion.

[CabalTherapy]

The has been my impression too. I was just asking because a guy at my LGS brought up that card for discussion.

Always good to come up with new ideas. Sometimes I just scroll throught magiccards.info to find new cards for storm (no really strike made yet) and UR.

[Agrippa91]

I don't like Blood Moon in decks that can only cast them on turn 3 at the earliest. Against decks that don't play basics (pretty much only Delver decks and Eldrazi nowadays) you get just beaten down too hard while you try to cast clunky 3-drop (also Daze is a thing). All the other decks pretty much play enough basics. Postboard decks like RG lands will have answers and generally people will play around PoP anyways once you reveal you're on UR Delver. So why play a potentially dead card for 3 mana when you can play a card for 2 mana that, if it doesn't kill them, at least advances your game plan significantly?

[TheManWithaPlan]

I don't like Blood Moon in decks that can only cast them on turn 3 at the earliest. Against decks that don't play basics (pretty much only Delver decks and Eldrazi nowadays) you get just beaten down too hard while you try to cast clunky 3-drop (also Daze is a thing). All the other decks pretty much play enough basics. Postboard decks like RG lands will have answers and generally people will play around PoP anyways once you reveal you're on UR Delver. So why play a potentially dead card for 3 mana when you can play a card for 2 mana that, if it doesn't kill them, at least advances your game plan significantly?

I think you hit the nail right on the head here why Blood Moon isn't that great in U/R Delver.

@Chatto I wouldn't mind writing more on the matchups section of the primer to keep it up to speed with the current decks to beat. I am a little busy right now but might be able to squeeze in some time in the coming week to do some writing.