[SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

[Megadeus]

people are posting decks with 14 creatures and 4 survivals ... (gets popcorn)

It's fine. You get 4 brainstorm. RUG Delver only played 6 actual lands for years when 20% of the meta was Maverick and it was fine because Derpstorm

[Lemnear]

We have seem people playing brainstorm with 16 blue cards total. Its not too different. Would not do either personally

[dte]

We have seem people playing brainstorm with 16 blue cards total. Its not too different. Would not do either personally

Well, I thought you were a TES player, enjoying 4 brainstorms in a deck with 12 blue cards.

Maybe you meant Force of Will ;)

[Lemnear]

Well, I thought you were a TES player, enjoying 4 brainstorms in a deck with 12 blue cards.

Maybe you meant Force of Will ;)

Yeah, obvious brainfart xD

[Obfuscate Freely]

If you want to consider whether survival would be healthy to unban, you should start with the gwb lists that ultimately got the card axed. Gerry's list that was posted earlier is a good example of one.

Jesse and I were developing the deck alongside Gerry, and it was a lot of fun, but it was easily one of the most overpowered decks I've ever played. The last decklists were a bit inbred due to importance of winning survival mirrors in that format, but it would take very little updating to adapt this monster for today's Legacy.

Almost everyone in this thread seems to be designing survival decks from scratch, using the philosophies people used before vengevine came along, but that does not do the card justice. With vengevine/ooze survival, your goal is simply to untap once with a survival or fauna shaman in play, then find a way to kill your opponent immediately. The toolbox nature of survival is used to provide resiliency, not value. It is a turn 3 combo deck with multiple angles of attack, a full package of hard tutors, and the potential ability to reactively find the answer to every hate card the opponent has.

Pick up Gerry's list and play around with it. The optimal way of building a modern survival deck is going to look a lot like that, and I don't think it would be good for Legacy to have it.

[Stevestamopz]

If you want to consider whether survival would be healthy to unban, you should start with the gwb lists that ultimately got the card axed. Gerry's list that was posted earlier is a good example of one.

Jesse and I were developing the deck alongside Gerry, and it was a lot of fun, but it was easily one of the most overpowered decks I've ever played. The last decklists were a bit inbred due to importance of winning survival mirrors in that format, but it would take very little updating to adapt this monster for today's Legacy.

Almost everyone in this thread seems to be designing survival decks from scratch, using the philosophies people used before vengevine came along, but that does not do the card justice. With vengevine/ooze survival, your goal is simply to untap once with a survival or fauna shaman in play, then find a way to kill your opponent immediately. The toolbox nature of survival is used to provide resiliency, not value. It is a turn 3 combo deck with multiple angles of attack, a full package of hard tutors, and the potential ability to reactively find the answer to every hate card the opponent has.

Pick up Gerry's list and play around with it. The optimal way of building a modern survival deck is going to look a lot like that, and I don't think it would be good for Legacy to have it.

Cheers, I'll start with those sort of lists then. I still don't see dumping Vengevines or the Trike + Devourer + Ooze combo to even be close to the power level of Show and Tell or Elves or Brainstorm or ANT or Brainstorm. Did I mention Brainstorm? I don't even see how this beats Death and Taxes reliably.

Then again, maybe I'm looking at it wrong. Do you find Show and Tell/Griselbrand.dec/TES/Elves/insert any fast + uninteractive combo deck good for Legacy to have? If the answer is no, then fair enough. If the answer is yes, my question is what separates combo-survival from the above?

[Gheizen64]

If you want to consider whether survival would be healthy to unban, you should start with the gwb lists that ultimately got the card axed. Gerry's list that was posted earlier is a good example of one.

Jesse and I were developing the deck alongside Gerry, and it was a lot of fun, but it was easily one of the most overpowered decks I've ever played. The last decklists were a bit inbred due to importance of winning survival mirrors in that format, but it would take very little updating to adapt this monster for today's Legacy.

Almost everyone in this thread seems to be designing survival decks from scratch, using the philosophies people used before vengevine came along, but that does not do the card justice. With vengevine/ooze survival, your goal is simply to untap once with a survival or fauna shaman in play, then find a way to kill your opponent immediately. The toolbox nature of survival is used to provide resiliency, not value. It is a turn 3 combo deck with multiple angles of attack, a full package of hard tutors, and the potential ability to reactively find the answer to every hate card the opponent has.

Pick up Gerry's list and play around with it. The optimal way of building a modern survival deck is going to look a lot like that, and I don't think it would be good for Legacy to have it.

Gerry's list was my starting point (i don't remember if actually linked it in the OP however), and i found it decisively mediocre in today's metagame. Multiple angles of attack doesn't mean a lot when every angle of attack use the graveyard or a 2 cmc permanent which are vulnerable to two most common answer cards in the format (DRS and AD). "Toolbox resiliency" can also be used as another word for "terrible mulligans", and reactively finding answers is not a good thing when you are slower than a lot of the decks in the format, paying 6 mana to cast a sorcery speed disenchant isn't a good look (survival for reclamation sage) etc...

EDIT: nvm i remembered it wrong, it wasn't Jerry's list i started from, but Caleb's one. Disdregard that part of my post. I guess this isGerry's list you are talking about?

[Claymore]

It is a turn 3 combo deck with multiple angles of attack, a full package of hard tutors, and the potential ability to reactively find the answer to every hate card the opponent has.

Huh, that sounds familiar.

[nedleeds]

Remind me what Necrotic Ooze costs to cast again?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Remind me what Necrotic Ooze costs to cast again?

1 more than Emrakul/Griselbrand.

[Megadeus]

Oh man. Now I want to pitch a Griselbrand to Fauna Shaman and cast an Ooze. This deck can never beat an opposing Deathrite, but fuck it