The current state of Magic

[H]

I was just going to ask if my hobby's prehistoric: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9tv_-8sBkY (Super Street Fighter II Turbo, or ST for short)

I never had a system as a kid, but would play it often at a friend's house. Positively prehistoric.

Nobody remembers Total Annihilation. Nothing more satisfying than the old "ARM VERMIN HAVE BEEN EXTERMINATED."

CORE for life! That game was both great and not so much at the same time. It was neat for a while, but eventually we would just stick to Starcraft, for custom games and the like.

Two games I loved but no one really played: Deadlock (Deadlock 2 was OK as well) and Rise of Nations.

[CptHaddock]

Lands of Lore anyone?
Warcraft 1 or C&C and the one and only Kane!

C&C owns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yMy7JuGpJM

[taconaut]

This is really a prescriptivist vs. descriptivist thing. I am obviously the latter.

I'd be interested to know what you think of the "is a hot dog a sandwich?" debate. I have a guess.

The nomenclature and the "legitimacy" are not one thing. Sports might be considered by many people more "legitimate" but that is not an intrinsic quality, that is a cultural valuation.

Yes, and part of the cultural valuation is the words we choose to use. "Nerd" was formerly a pejorative, and is no longer, because of changing use and cultural attitudes. Words have meanings, but the meanings aren't static. They change over time.

So, no, it isn't just an issue of nomenclature that gives us the valuation, it's our personal values.

Again, which is it, then? Do words have immutable definitions, or do we define them personally?

It's also nonsensical to think that people like traditional sport solely for the fact that they require skill. Although could be a part of some people's enjoyment, another part of sport that appeals to people is the simplicity. The world's most popular sport, football, is fantastically simple, and that is a key to it's success.

I mean, American Football and Baseball are both extremely complicated, and are both very popular. I agree that simplicity will enable widespread appeal, but I don't think it's the driving factor. Why do we keep track of records, and debate which players were the greatest of all time? Because the fundamental nature of sport is excellence, whether it's with a ball, bat, mouse, or controller.

Why doesn't Magic have the same appeal? Because it is much less intuitive, much harder to conceptualize and with it's fantasy styling, seems "childish" to people.

Again, those opinions change, and are fluid. Boxing, for instance, was once a preeminent component of the American sports landscape, but has since fallen from grace because it's seen as dangerous and barbaric. It's possible to argue American Football is on the same trajectory, as a consequence of new knowledge about TBI and the unsettling conduct of the players off the field.

It's not, there are lines between what words mean. Just because you like using the phrase 'professional sport' more than 'professional gaming' doesn't change the meaning of the words themselves.

As a descriptivist, the meaning of words comes from how we use them.

Again, I used several very specific traits that encompass the words 'Athletic' and 'Sport'. Right from a dictionary.

The dictionary is a snapshot, it changes.

Most here with real input haven't reduced it to 'running good gaming bad'

Maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but it really feels to me like you're trying to separate them on that basis that calling games "sports" is the consequence of nerds aspiring to more than they're worth, which seems to imply "running good, gaming bad," as you've put it.

They have the same word in it. The phrase 'eSport' is an abuse anyway. To hark back to the same example, no one calls competitive poker an e-sport even though it's also a 'competitive game you can watch online'

Yes, and that's fine. People have an intuitive understanding that poker requires skill, and that the stakes in it are high, because the money is physically present at the table. Also, you may recall that the premier event in Poker is the "World Series of Poker"...

Professional gaming in general is boring as all fuck to a layman. Unless one is deeply invested/involved with most of these games, if you've never played them before they're borderline impossible to understand.

I don't think League and American football differ considerably in complexity. In fact, I think they share several attributes: Tanks, DPS, Carries, Supports, and Junglers all have parallels in Linemen, Receivers, Quarterbacks, Defensive Backs, and Special Teams, and the objective of both games is to bring your offense to bear on the opposing team by exploiting asymmetries in positioning (get your tank on the carry, get your linemen to sack the quarterback). Many of the same things can be said of Overwatch, and in that game there's even a Payload (ball) you push to get yardage(!).

League can even have more interesting things going on at once, because both teams are on offense and defense at the same time, and there's a macro element that resembles clock management in football but has the potential to be more varied and interesting.

Anyone who is an American Football fan is perfectly capable of understanding a game of League or Overwatch. Maybe if they realized they have more in common than they do different, they'd give it a shot, and maybe one way to get them to realize that is branding!


Add to this the fact that games like League, Overwatch and friends change month-by-month? Insanity to someone involved with professional sports. I don't think that strategies get invalidated as often as they do in competitive games due to the rules of the game changing. Football (hell, American and otherwise) likely has strategies that have been good for decades, and yet the game doesn't get stale.

I'll admit that I'm not an expert in standard sports either, but the notion that they rarely change is not true - football has had many small rules changes ("patches," if you will) that people perseverate over constantly. Here is a list of changes, they make a couple every year, which is not all that different from seasonal changes in Overwatch or any other game.

Plus, even if a former meta lineup changes, is it really all that different if the new Carry is Cait instead of Ashe, or if running an extra tank is strong because Ana got released with killer numbers? The fundamentals are the same, and these changes are the kind of thing sports fans love to debate/hear about from the in-game commentators - I would argue they are a boon.

P.S.: A hot dog is a sandwich.

[Tylert]

Man i was looking for the name of this game...
Command & conquer!

One of the first games i played in a LAN (On PC because i had already played some games on amiga with Null cable in direct connection) along Duke Nukem !

[tescrin]

Man i was looking for the name of this game...
Command & conquer!

One of the first games i played in a LAN (On PC because i had already played some games on amiga with Null cable in direct connection) along Duke Nukem !

Original C&C circa ~1995 is still one of my favorites. Several of its successors are good; but the original got so much right for basically inventing a genre. I was truly inspired the last time I played it. I remember the first time I played it, maybe I was 9 or so; I was sleeping over at a friends house, they showed me the game and I don't think I hung out with them the rest of the night. To be fair to myself; that kid was a douche. But his game was pretty great.

[Watersaw]

Yes and the National Baseball League (EDIT: Major League Baseball. How I did that is beyond me.) championship is referred to as The WORLD Series. And there's a Miss UNIVERSE beauty pageant. And let's not forget WORLDStar Hip Hop.

Give me a break dude. If I wanted to play language games I would have gone into academia.

[H]

This is really a prescriptivist vs. descriptivist thing. I am obviously the latter.

I'd be interested to know what you think of the "is a hot dog a sandwich?" debate. I have a guess.

P.S.: A hot dog is a sandwich.

If the definition of "sandwich" is meat between two slices of bread, then yes. However, this would tend to get you into trouble, because if you have something like pepperoni on pizza and you fold it in half, that too is a "sandwich." However, that isn't really how people use the term sandwich. Not to mention, a hot dog isn't guaranteed to be eaten between bread. Our kids never do, they don't like buns. So, no, a "hot dog" is not a sandwich, but it is something that could be eaten as a nominal "sandwich."

Yes, and part of the cultural valuation is the words we choose to use. "Nerd" was formerly a pejorative, and is no longer, because of changing use and cultural attitudes. Words have meanings, but the meanings aren't static. They change over time.

I'm not changing the meaning of sports. In fact, I am keeping it the same. The definition of nerd hasn't changed, only the value associated with the term. So, what you want is an overarching broad meaning change to the word sport. I'm not for that. What you also want is a different valuation of the word game. I'm fine with that.

Again, which is it, then? Do words have immutable definitions, or do we define them personally?

Words are defined inter-subjectively. You can have any definition of a word that you like. That doesn't mean people are going to agree with you. You want to change the definition of sport to include any game, or at least the games you define as "skillful." I am against that. So, here we are. Could we arbitrarily call anything in the world a sport? Sure. But that would make the word so broad to be essentially meaningless.

I mean, American Football and Baseball are both extremely complicated, and are both very popular. I agree that simplicity will enable widespread appeal, but I don't think it's the driving factor. Why do we keep track of records, and debate which players were the greatest of all time? Because the fundamental nature of sport is excellence, whether it's with a ball, bat, mouse, or controller.

Again, this precludes a very broad definition of sport which I don't agree with. You can achieve excellence in many things, that doesn't qualify it as a sport by definition. And I'd still disagree that Baseball or Football are all that complicated, but that is really besides the point.

Again, those opinions change, and are fluid. Boxing, for instance, was once a preeminent component of the American sports landscape, but has since fallen from grace because it's seen as dangerous and barbaric. It's possible to argue American Football is on the same trajectory, as a consequence of new knowledge about TBI and the unsettling conduct of the players off the field.

Sure, people's opinion's change, as does their assignment of value. None of this precludes a definitional, or conceptual change, to the nature of sports. What you seem to be hung up on is that since sports are given cultural value, anything you want to have the same cultural value should be labeled a sport. I'm not buying that. If you want the cultural acceptance, change the culture. That's what happened to the term "nerd." It didn't conceptually drift into meaning the same as "jock" or "aficionado" or anything. It still means the same as it always did. It just doesn't have the negative connotation it once did.

Boxing isn't suddenly not a sport because people don't like to watch it. A game isn't suddenly a sport just people some people do like to watch it.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Nobody remembers Total Annihilation. Nothing more satisfying than the old "ARM VERMIN HAVE BEEN EXTERMINATED."

I have some ancient and vague memories of Total Annihiliation Kingdoms. "Castle building on. Castle building off. Command me!"

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

RA1 DOS installer

Let me tell you about Madden '95, NHL '97 and the boost-disks I needed to play them.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

No idea, I think the better question is "Who here buys sealed product"? Outside of draft I don't.

On that topic, this set has been sweet for draft.

I love that image. What about those of us who's thought was "System Shock, Halo CE and Golden Eye"? Hell Alex Kid anyone? Duck Hunt. Wow I am starting to feel old.

I only buy sealed so I have a stack of booster packs for EDH where I play Booster Tutor.

[CptHaddock]

words

Friend arguing with a pedant is just like arguing with someone with an anime avatar. Nothing constructive will ever come out of it.

[tescrin]

Friend arguing with a pedant is just like arguing with someone with an anime avatar. Nothing constructive will ever come out of it.

What about a pedant who has an anime avatar; like a double-negative thing?

Getting back on topic: Brainstorm is a sport; fight me

[TsumiBand]

If you have to cover it with a napkin before you get up so that your friends don't punch it, it's a sandwich. How hard is that, honestly

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If you have to cover it with a napkin before you get up so that your friends don't punch it, it's a sandwich. How hard is that, honestly

Because... What?

[TsumiBand]

Because... What?

If you have to ask you really don't want to know.

And if you already know, you better cover your fucking hot dogs.

[H]

Because... What?

Never heard of Sandwich Punch?

Well, now you are tainted. Somethings are better left unknown.

[CptHaddock]

Lmao one of the first links that came up was this: http://www.archive.themanadrain.com/...?topic=33623.0

[CptHaddock]

What the fuck wrong with you folks in the flyovers?

[taconaut]

If you have to cover it with a napkin before you get up so that your friends don't punch it, it's a sandwich. How hard is that, honestly

Perfection as usual Tsumi

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If you want me to not hang out with you anymore, please be an adult and say so instead of punching my sandwich like an asshole.