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Thread: The current state of Magic

  1. #1301

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Magic is neither an actual Esport (defined as everyone knows) nor an "entertainment sport" as that is defined. It's a game.

    Not to mention, both Esports and "entertainment sport" are pretty much just bullshit terms that attempt to engender "legitimacy" by banking on a culturally accepted types of "game."

    So, yeah, I feel pretty good about my initial sarcastic response. (Despite "misspelling that last word, but whatever.)
    I didnt intend my post to come across as serious, though not as sarcastic as your suggestions, its just that wotc naming conventions (between this and magicfests) make little sense regardless.

  2. #1302
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    I didnt intend my post to come across as serious, though not as sarcastic as your suggestions, its just that wotc naming conventions (between this and magicfests) make little sense regardless.
    Well, I half figured it wasn't serious, but I figured just in case. I actually have a very narrow definition of what I consider a "sport" so labeling video games as a sport already gets me agitated, let alone the general marketing proclivity to add in all sort of obviously non-sport activities. That's marketing for you though...
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  3. #1303

    Re: The current state of Magic

    I see that the GP this weekend is going well.

    https://twitter.com/Rose0fthorns/sta...04297309855750
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    My original post did that.

    I'd love to have a battle of wits with you but I see you lack the necessary equipment.

    Good day.

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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, I half figured it wasn't serious, but I figured just in case. I actually have a very narrow definition of what I consider a "sport" so labeling video games as a sport already gets me agitated, let alone the general marketing proclivity to add in all sort of obviously non-sport activities. That's marketing for you though...
    I gag a little every time I read the words "e-sports athlete".
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
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    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    I see that the GP this weekend is going well.

    https://twitter.com/Rose0fthorns/sta...04297309855750
    Wait ... what? Is there a tournament on a construction site or how is that possible?
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Wait ... what? Is there a tournament on a construction site or how is that possible?
    https://twitter.com/ednguyen13/statu...23242905448450
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Utterly hilarious. Thanks for having my back, mate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  8. #1308

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    I gag a little every time I read the words "e-sports athlete".
    Seconded.

  9. #1309

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, I half figured it wasn't serious, but I figured just in case. I actually have a very narrow definition of what I consider a "sport" so labeling video games as a sport already gets me agitated, let alone the general marketing proclivity to add in all sort of obviously non-sport activities. That's marketing for you though...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    I gag a little every time I read the words "e-sports athlete".
    I never understood this prejudice. I suppose it makes less sense for Magic, where there isn't a physical component really, but I think it's pretty reasonable to consider, say, Overwatch League players, or League of Legends players, as "athletes" or competing in a sport.

    Fundamentally, what they're doing is employing knowledge/reaction time/positioning/etc to win a competition with other players. They spend long hours training, and it's clear that not everyone can do it. What makes that any different from any shooting sports, for instance? Driving? Could either of you two make it as a professional Fortnite player?

    Magic is just associating itself with that context in terms of "games you can stream," which I also think is reasonable use, even if it doesn't have the coordination component that something like a shooter or MOBA does.

  10. #1310
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    I never understood this prejudice. I suppose it makes less sense for Magic, where there isn't a physical component really, but I think it's pretty reasonable to consider, say, Overwatch League players, or League of Legends players, as "athletes" or competing in a sport.

    Fundamentally, what they're doing is employing knowledge/reaction time/positioning/etc to win a competition with other players. They spend long hours training, and it's clear that not everyone can do it. What makes that any different from any shooting sports, for instance? Driving? Could either of you two make it as a professional Fortnite player?

    Magic is just associating itself with that context in terms of "games you can stream," which I also think is reasonable use, even if it doesn't have the coordination component that something like a shooter or MOBA does.
    I mean, I play those games more than Magic, and it's still ridiculous. I'm not demeaning the actual competition, I wouldn't play the games and be hooked on the competition otherwise. But just call competitive gaming what it is, and professional gamers what they are. Esports is, to quote fighting game commentator David Graham "an incredibly sad, self denying, misguided attempt to borrow legitimacy from the world of traditional sports." or "You know the only thing we’re opposed to? The word “esports.” Shit is straight clown shoes son, for reals."

    Pretty much sums up my opinion on it. The games are good, the competition is there and people even want to watch it and are willing to pay money for the priviledge. You're legitimate to begin with, why ape something else?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  11. #1311

    Re: The current state of Magic

    That is SO Wizards. ROFL.

  12. #1312

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    I'm not demeaning the actual competition, I wouldn't play the games and be hooked on the competition otherwise. But just call competitive gaming what it is, and professional gamers what they are. "You know the only thing we’re opposed to? The word “esports.” Shit is straight clown shoes son, for reals."

    Pretty much sums up my opinion on it. The games are good, the competition is there and people even want to watch it and are willing to pay money for the priviledge. You're legitimate to begin with, why ape something else?
    "I like this thing, but I'm mad about what they call it?"

    Maybe they get better reactions when they bill it as a sport. Many of the trappings are the same (regional teams, jerseys, merchandise, "televised" events, etc), it's really not all that different.

    I dunno, it's just that the whole "video games aren't REAL sports" argument sounds a lot like the "dang these millenials and their snapchat and their avocado toast" assertions that are really just a lot of hand wringing/performative complaining. Let people like what they like.

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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    I mean, I play those games more than Magic, and it's still ridiculous. I'm not demeaning the actual competition, I wouldn't play the games and be hooked on the competition otherwise. But just call competitive gaming what it is, and professional gamers what they are. Esports is, to quote fighting game commentator David Graham "an incredibly sad, self denying, misguided attempt to borrow legitimacy from the world of traditional sports." or "You know the only thing we’re opposed to? The word “esports.” Shit is straight clown shoes son, for reals."

    Pretty much sums up my opinion on it. The games are good, the competition is there and people even want to watch it and are willing to pay money for the priviledge. You're legitimate to begin with, why ape something else?
    I feel like there's an implication that calling something a "game" isn't good enough. But if you say it's a E-Sport suddenly you have legitimacy. The whole thing feels like an insult to the medium.

    Anyway Hemmingway was right. The only real sports are bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering.

  14. #1314

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    "I like this thing, but I'm mad about what they call it?"

    Maybe they get better reactions when they bill it as a sport. Many of the trappings are the same (regional teams, jerseys, merchandise, "televised" events, etc), it's really not all that different.

    I dunno, it's just that the whole "video games aren't REAL sports" argument sounds a lot like the "dang these millenials and their snapchat and their avocado toast" assertions that are really just a lot of hand wringing/performative complaining. Let people like what they like.
    Competing in video games is much more like competing in something like Poker, if you ask me. Folks don't like it because it warps the meaning of the word "sport". A sport is generally defined as "an athletic activity requiring skill and/or physical prowess". Furthermore, an "athlete" (i.e. one who participates in a sport) is "one who is trained (or gifted) in exercises/contests requiring speed, strength agility..."

    Of course, I don't think anyone is debating that any sort of professional gaming does not require skill. The debate is that it does NOT require any sort of physical prowess to be good at. There are other sets of skills that are needed (and some may overlap with what are needed in sports) but the requirement of physical activity is generally absent. I really think that calling professional gaming a 'sport' is a marring of the word. Again, it's not the greatest example, but I've never heard anyone call professional poker a sport, and I feel like there's more similarities between video gaming and poker than any actual (physical) sport out there. Furthermore, I think the negative reaction is due quite a bit to this, and the fact that the word is (or was) arguably being misused to either prop up the legitimacy (though, I think, we are somewhat past the point where the legitimacy of a professional gaming enterprise is questionable), or just for visibility/easier ad revenue. Either way, the word is simply being misused, no matter how one spins it.

  15. #1315

    Re: The current state of Magic

    If you don't spend time in the gym, it's not a sport.

  16. #1316
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    I never understood this prejudice. I suppose it makes less sense for Magic, where there isn't a physical component really, but I think it's pretty reasonable to consider, say, Overwatch League players, or League of Legends players, as "athletes" or competing in a sport.
    The issue is that if we use the word sport to include any "game" then what is the difference between the two words? If the answer is nothing, then we have really reductively destroyed the concept of both things. If we broaden the scope of sport so far, at what point does it end? Is competitive thinking a sport? If we consider that I must breathe to do so, some physical activity is also taking place in my brain, right? We quickly reach the level of absurdity.

    A sport is a particular type of game. A game is not a particular type of sport.

    This is discriminatory, in the same way that squares are particular types of rectangles, but rectangles are not particular types of squares. Now, if you decide, on behalf of all squares to disabuse everyone of the such bias against rectangles at the hands of "Squarists," well, be my guest but note that there is no real bias on my part as to the intrinsic value of "squareness."

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    Fundamentally, what they're doing is employing knowledge/reaction time/positioning/etc to win a competition with other players. They spend long hours training, and it's clear that not everyone can do it. What makes that any different from any shooting sports, for instance? Driving? Could either of you two make it as a professional Fortnite player?
    Absolutely not. I can't even cut it as a make-believe, half-assed Magic player. But that has nothing to do with the definition of "sport." There are any number of things which you could do that require skill. Carpentry, for example. Does that mean that any carpenter is also an athlete? No, certainly not. And there is no way I can contort my definition of "athlete" to be "anyone do does anything involving physical activity." That is so broad as to be meaningless. Then, here, breathing and typing this response means I am an "athlete." Absurd, to me.

    Note: I don't consider driving a sport. At all. Not NASCAR or whatever, unless you are a car. Shooting sports? Doesn't seem like a sport either, honestly. Do those things require skill? Of course. So does playing a piano. Can't buy that as "athletics" though either.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    I dunno, it's just that the whole "video games aren't REAL sports" argument sounds a lot like the "dang these millenials and their snapchat and their avocado toast" assertions that are really just a lot of hand wringing/performative complaining. Let people like what they like.
    Note, you added the qualifier of "real" there, not me. When did I say people shouldn't like any thing? When did I lampoon anyone's personal taste?

    It's also quite funny, because you notice I have many posts here, but I am biased against games? Really?

    If I said, "I have created a new sport, it is competitively discussing things on an online forum and I am it's first athlete." To which you replied, "That doesn't seem like a sport at all and it's unclear why that would considered to be athletic." I would then say, "I really can't see why you complain so much and are against me liking what I like."

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    I feel like there's an implication that calling something a "game" isn't good enough. But if you say it's a E-Sport suddenly you have legitimacy. The whole thing feels like an insult to the medium.

    Anyway Hemmingway was right. The only real sports are bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering.
    It's marketing, plain and simple. The general public as culturally informed views on why "sport" is a legitimized form of game. Ergo, you cavort the word to use it's preconceived association.

    Quote Originally Posted by niv View Post
    Competing in video games is much more like competing in something like Poker, if you ask me. Folks don't like it because it warps the meaning of the word "sport". A sport is generally defined as "an athletic activity requiring skill and/or physical prowess". Furthermore, an "athlete" (i.e. one who participates in a sport) is "one who is trained (or gifted) in exercises/contests requiring speed, strength agility..."

    Of course, I don't think anyone is debating that any sort of professional gaming does not require skill. The debate is that it does NOT require any sort of physical prowess to be good at. There are other sets of skills that are needed (and some may overlap with what are needed in sports) but the requirement of physical activity is generally absent. I really think that calling professional gaming a 'sport' is a marring of the word. Again, it's not the greatest example, but I've never heard anyone call professional poker a sport, and I feel like there's more similarities between video gaming and poker than any actual (physical) sport out there. Furthermore, I think the negative reaction is due quite a bit to this, and the fact that the word is (or was) arguably being misused to either prop up the legitimacy (though, I think, we are somewhat past the point where the legitimacy of a professional gaming enterprise is questionable), or just for visibility/easier ad revenue. Either way, the word is simply being misused, no matter how one spins it.
    Yeah, pretty much exactly this. Games and sports are not identical. If you are a professional gamer, good for you. If you are a professional athlete (note, that is the word for person engaged in sport), good for you too. You want to ascribe a value judgement on either? Good for you as well.

    However, we who simply assert that they are necessarily different things implies no bias except a bias for maintaining the integrity of nomenclature. Play games if you want. Play sports if you want. But don't decide that a game is a sport just because you decided you like that word better. At least, do that if you want, but don't expect everyone to buy flimsy rational behind it.
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  17. #1317
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    "I like this thing, but I'm mad about what they call it?"

    Maybe they get better reactions when they bill it as a sport. Many of the trappings are the same (regional teams, jerseys, merchandise, "televised" events, etc), it's really not all that different.

    I dunno, it's just that the whole "video games aren't REAL sports" argument sounds a lot like the "dang these millenials and their snapchat and their avocado toast" assertions that are really just a lot of hand wringing/performative complaining. Let people like what they like.
    Well, it can be that for someone. For me it's just a misuse of the word, and a sad attempt to borrow legitimacy from traditional sports. Definitely don't mean to put it down, if anything the opposite: It's good enough to be legit on its own. I've never gotten so hyped as I have watching some amazing matches in bloody videogames. It's good stuff, but calling folk fiddling with mice "e-sports athletes" is clownshoes like as UltraDavid put it.

    I mean, stuff like this stands for itself:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TonV5PiMyPo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mplrgn1hHlw

    First one of those especially was some of the hypest shit ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  18. #1318

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Lmao @ nerds defending the concept of "e-sports". Can someone post the top 8 from an American GP where everyone had neckbeards?

    Oh wait that is every American GP top 8.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    My original post did that.

    I'd love to have a battle of wits with you but I see you lack the necessary equipment.

    Good day.

  19. #1319

    Re: The current state of Magic

    My point with this is that whatever distinction you choose to make between them is wholly arbitrary, and things like high-level shooters and MOBAs demand exceptional physical abilities, even if the specific list of them doesn't include "running." It's important to increase the legitimacy of it, even if you think it's distinct from sport, because there are people that deride it for no reason other than, "oh it's just video games, lol @ nerds."

    Quote Originally Posted by niv View Post
    A sport is generally defined as "an athletic activity requiring skill and/or physical prowess". Furthermore, an "athlete" (i.e. one who participates in a sport) is "one who is trained (or gifted) in exercises/contests requiring speed, strength agility..."

    Hand eye coordination? Teamwork? Communication? Dexterity?

    The debate is that it does NOT require any sort of physical prowess to be good at.

    There's clearly physical prowess there, even if it's not "aerobic." That distinction is arbitrary.

    Again, it's not the greatest example, but I've never heard anyone call professional poker a sport, and I feel like there's more similarities between video gaming and poker than any actual (physical) sport out there.

    Yes, in the case of Magic, I think "Sport" is a stretch. However, "eSport," in the sense of, "competitive game you can watch online," is perfectly legitimate, and not an abuse.

    Though, I think, we are somewhat past the point where the legitimacy of a professional gaming enterprise is questionable.

    I don't think it is, and that is the crux of my argument. People still making arbitrary disctinctions about competition are why professional games are still looking upon with derision - my coworkers can't perceive the parallels between watching the League finals and watching the NFL, despite the fact that they are both teams of dudes playing a game. Just because some of the dudes are big and run doesn't mean the other guys don't dedicate themselves, train, etc and provide entertainment.
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    If you don't spend time in the gym, it's not a sport.
    They do scrims, they work together, practice moves, etc. Why is that any different?

    There are plenty of people who make fun of professional gaming as an enterprise that like to hunt, and plenty of them sure as heck don't go to the gym before they go sit in their tree stand or boat and shoot deer.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    However, we who simply assert that they are necessarily different things implies no bias except a bias for maintaining the integrity of nomenclature. Play games if you want. Play sports if you want. But don't decide that a game is a sport just because you decided you like that word better. At least, do that if you want, but don't expect everyone to buy flimsy rational behind it.
    You're trying to have it both ways, though.

    "It's important that we call each thing what it is, because the definitions of the words matter, and they are different."

    "There's no difference in legitimacy between sports and games, play what you like."

    The point of branding it as "eSports" is that it acknowledges the level of skill and dedication required to play on that stage. As fans of games, you and I understand that these streams are high-stakes and not just anyone can be on there, but there are still people who don't understand it isn't just random nerds in their basement. If those properties want to expand their audience, and capture some of the people who might watch the NFL but not the OWL, they might find it useful to take cues from franchises that are already successful.

  20. #1320

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    There are plenty of people who make fun of professional gaming as an enterprise that like to hunt, and plenty of them sure as heck don't go to the gym before they go sit in their tree stand or boat and shoot deer.
    And if those hunters wanted to turn pro they'd go to the gym. It's ok duder, Nerds are cool now you don't have to pretend your hobby is a sport to have fun with it. No one's gonna bully you over it anymore.

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