The current state of Magic

[Dice_Box]

The card is a problem. Like Brainstorm, Chalice, Leo. It's a fucking format of problems. Please quote me having ever said ban DRS. I'll wait.

[Megadeus]

It's the same play patterns we've seen for years now though is the issue. Sure the kill condition is different but every game really just ends up being: play my deathrite, cast cantrip to find removal, remove your deathrite. Force your next spell, cantrip into threat and play threat. Then it just becomes who has a deathrite at the end of slinging removal at the other creatures ends up winning on deathrite activations eventually. Same shit, different year. Cantrips give you an illusion of decision making, but probably 90% of the time I don't even have to think about what to put back or how to order things it's all pretty simple.

[Crimhead]

The card is a problem. Like Brainstorm, Chalice, Leo. It's a fucking format of problems. Please quote me having ever said ban DRS. I'll wait.

I never mentioned bans. That's between you and Echelnon.

I asked why its a problem in the context of the meta.

Do you even like this game? Did somebody pee in your beer this morning?

[taconaut]

It's the same play patterns we've seen for years now though is the issue. Sure the kill condition is different but every game really just ends up being...

What do you want the play patterns to be, Mega?

[Crimhead]

It's the same play patterns we've seen for years now though is the issue. Sure the kill condition is different but every game really just ends up being: play my deathrite, cast cantrip to find removal, remove your deathrite. Force your next spell, cantrip into threat and play threat.

You are describing, what, 3 decks?

Where I play, there are also decks like ANT, Lands, Prowess, D&T, Elves, Eldrazi, Miracles, and more.

What do you want the play patterns to be, Mega?

Bitch about a card.
Card gets banned.
Bitch about another card.
Wash, rinse, repeat?

[maharis]

The DRS debate is one of the reasons that it's hard to put stuff into Legacy. I think that I could've made that same list I made above and had Noble Hierarch in it a couple years ago, and everyone would agree that it would be inconceivable to imagine a better mana dork. Now they've actually made one and its non-stop griping. (I know, there's space between Noble Hierarch and DRS in terms of power level, but this is what they made, so....)

DRS should've been a victory for Wizards -- it was a Legacy-relevant card that didn't warp Standard. It is the kind of card Legacy needs in order to support cards from new sets, actually. The only place effects can compete is up the curve where they are safer and easier to balance in Standard. That means decks need access to mana acceleration and ramp that isn't dogshit at other times of the game. It's too bad that it's become so polarizing.

IMO, the format is way more warped by TNN than DRS, simply because TNN's uninteractivity and inevitability protects it from the efficient removal of the format while forcing play patterns that polarize around answering it. You can't play any cool 3-drops that come out in sets, even those that I believe are powerful enough in a vacuum for Legacy, because your opponent can just Swords it and move on or play a TNN and brick it while you scramble for an answer. Snapcaster Mage allowing players to recycle efficient spells doesn't help either because even if you bait a STP with your DRS, when you both have three lands, that STP is always a threat to come back and eat your Excavator or Tireless Tracker or whatever. (DRS is one of the best weapons against Snapcaster, incidentally.)

Or, to rephrase: Putting a 3-drop in your deck that can be removed for no value by a STP is not tenable as long as you have the option not to. Absent TNN, everyone's 3-drops would be vulnerable enough that it would be a fairer fight.

In his Ravenous Chupacabra rant, Patrick Sullivan hit on this point nicely. He said that with every creature providing value as it hits the table, there's no tension in seeing if you get to untap with your bomb. You don't really care what your opponent does because you got your thing. It's a problem across MTG right now, not just Legacy, and hopefully they will find a way to fix it soon.

Actually, Sullivan's DRS rant is relevant here as well. We say we want Legacy-relevant cards, but when we get one that's actually impactful -- it's "ban now" city.

[Stuart]

It's the same play patterns we've seen for years now though is the issue.

This. I play Legacy every week, and while some individual games can be fun, I don't feel like I'm experiencing anything different from one week to the next. Clearly the format's fine for some of/most Legacy players, but there's a subset of us who are finding it stale.

[Crimhead]

I agree with almost everything you say (which is a nice change for us).

I disagree with this:

You can't play any cool 3-drops that come out in sets, even those that I believe are powerful enough in a vacuum for Legacy, because your opponent can just Swords it and move on or play a TNN and brick it while you scramble for an answer.

This isn't quite true.

Or, to rephrase: Putting a 3-drop in your deck that can be removed for no value by a STP is not tenable as long as you have the option not to.

This is more like it.

3-drop (creatures) that see play need to have impact. Leotard accomplishes this. Reclamation Sage. Flickerwisp. Sanctum Prelate, Recruiter of the Guard. Tireless tracker. Mentor. New Thalia. In Maveric, Ramunap or Rallier. Clique still sees a little play. Metalworker and Crusader seem to be exceptions.

Ultimately I think this is less that TNN is pushing other creatures out, and more about efficient 1cc answers punishing high cc threats. Legacy has been like that as long as I can remember, and 3-drops have always had to meet a very high bar. In the past maybe it was Bloodbraid Elf, Shardless Agent, or Geist - also cards that can't be removed for no value. Nothing has really changed here.

[Crimhead]

This. I play Legacy every week, and while some individual games can be fun, I don't feel like I'm experiencing anything different from one week to the next. Clearly the format's fine for some of/most Legacy players, but there's a subset of us who are finding it stale.

Switch decks, maybe? You don't have to play DRS + cantrips.

[Stuart]

Switch decks, maybe? You don't have to play DRS + cantrips.

I play Maverick, MUD, and Burn, but yeah I agree that it's on yourself to keep it fresh. Personally, I'm finding it's better to just hop formats when I get tired of Legacy - currently, that's meant more Vintage and Modern.

[Megadeus]

What has worked for me was not playing. Deck building is the best part of the game to me and that basically doesn't exist anymore at a competitive level. I have more fun building my deck than when I actually end up playing it whether I win or lose. Every night I leave legacy I feel like I have just wasted my time playing against the same shit I've played against for 4 years. But I always enjoy going home and building a deck before I remember that my deck can't remove a goddamn True Name and I die to random idiot who does everything wrong except play this shit 3 drop Progenitus

[Crimhead]

As the format gets more refined, I guess it becomes harder to brew. Part of that also might be a relative low impact from newer sets, failing to shake up the former paradigms.

That said, I do believe we just saw a hitherto unknown tempo-stompy hybrid go on a real tear. David Long gave us a new take on Lands a couple years back. RB Reanimator came out of nowhere. None of those decks are blanked by a TNN. Brewing is still a thing. Just not very many of us can actually do it well.

[Stuart]

What has worked for me was not playing. Deck building is the best part of the game to me and that basically doesn't exist anymore at a competitive level. I have more fun building my deck than when I actually end up playing it whether I win or lose. Every night I leave legacy I feel like I have just wasted my time playing against the same shit I've played against for 4 years. But I always enjoy going home and building a deck before I remember that my deck can't remove a goddamn True Name and I die to random idiot who does everything wrong except play this shit 3 drop Progenitus

Just play Pox and tell people to get fucked.

[Megadeus]

As the format gets more refined, I guess it becomes harder to brew. Part of that also might be a relative low impact from newer sets, failing to shake up the former paradigms.

That said, I do believe we just saw a hitherto unknown tempo-stompy hybrid go on a real tear. David Long gave us a new take on Lands a couple years back. RB Reanimator came out of nowhere. None of those decks are blanked by a TNN. Brewing is still a thing. Just not very many of us can actually do it well.

I am unaware of what tempo stompy deck you are referring to

[maharis]

I agree with almost everything you say (which is a nice change for us).

Right!

3-drop (creatures) that see play need to have impact. Leotard accomplishes this. Reclamation Sage. Flickerwisp. Sanctum Prelate, Recruiter of the Guard. Tireless tracker. Mentor. New Thalia. In Maveric, Ramunap or Rallier. Clique still sees a little play. Metalworker and Crusader seem to be exceptions.

Ultimately I think this is less that TNN is pushing other creatures out, and more about efficient 1cc answers punishing high cc threats. Legacy has been like that as long as I can remember, and 3-drops have always had to meet a very high bar. In the past maybe it was Bloodbraid Elf, Shardless Agent, or Geist - also cards that can't be removed for no value. Nothing has really changed here.

TNN isn't kicking everything out, but it is having a coalescing effect. Using MTGTop8.com data, TNN appears in 24.7% of decks that placed in live tournaments in the past two months. It's the second-most played creature by this measure after DRS.

Absent TNN, some of those decks would play Clique, some would play Knight, some would play Mirran Crusader or Trygon Predator or Geist or Shardless or something else. It would provide a more varied tournament experience and require more thought at the point of deckbuilding.

Of course, even then, the baseline of efficient spells one needs to compile to compete in Legacy still means that many decks would overlap significantly. But that is a much more difficult knob to turn because it is hard to disincentivize playing 1-drops. The last time they tried, well, Mental Misstep wasn't exactly a barrel of laughs, was it?

[Megadeus]

Right!



TNN isn't kicking everything out, but it is having a coalescing effect. Using MTGTop8.com data, TNN appears in 24.7% of decks that placed in live tournaments in the past two months. It's the second-most played creature by this measure after DRS.

Absent TNN, some of those decks would play Clique, some would play Knight, some would play Mirran Crusader or Trygon Predator or Geist or Shardless or something else. It would provide a more varied tournament experience and require more thought at the point of deckbuilding.

Of course, even then, the baseline of efficient spells one needs to compile to compete in Legacy still means that many decks would overlap significantly. But that is a much more difficult knob to turn because it is hard to disincentivize playing 1-drops. The last time they tried, well, Mental Misstep wasn't exactly a barrel of laughs, was it?

I think Chalice being legal and played at a decent rate is good to disincentivize just playing a pile of 1 drops, but I don't think the incentive and inconsistency is worth playing the powerful artifact. I thought Prelate would have been enough, but it turns out that getting bricked so easily by shit like True Name makes it borderline unplayable.

[maharis]

I think Chalice being legal and played at a decent rate is good to disincentivize just playing a pile of 1 drops, but I don't think the incentive and inconsistency is worth playing the powerful artifact. I thought Prelate would have been enough, but it turns out that getting bricked so easily by shit like True Name makes it borderline unplayable.

Yep, very good points. Kambal is another card that fights spells that, in addition to being easily removed, isn't any good against TNN. It seems obvious to use Mom as the way around that, but that doesn't stop "cast TNN, attack for 3 every turn until you die." Unless you have the entire D&T house of horrors set up, in which case Prelate is a hammer. But subject to variance.

Of course, all those cards also shut off the controller's ability to use cards like Thoughtseize and STP that are good. A non-symmetrical cantrip hate card that blue decks somehow can't play would be nice. Would have to hit blue specifically or cost like BBB so that the U decks can't play it.

Maybe they'll figure out a way to make Oath of Nissa type effects printable and playable.

[taconaut]

What has worked for me was not playing. Deck building is the best part of the game to me and that basically doesn't exist anymore at a competitive level.

Isn't this more of a problem with the ubiquity and availability of information afforded by the internet than an issue with any particular format? A similar argument could be made for Modern or Standard; it would be extremely unlikely that a single person could come up with a new, unique, powerful deck concept on their own because there are just too many eyes on the cards. No one is going to play brews in a competitive context, by definition, and banning isn't a reasonable way to mediate that. It sounds like you may be more interested in a more casual context, where having the best of everything available isn't the driving motivation.

That being said, I'm sorry that it isn't doing it for you - I believe you that it is frustrating, and it would put me off if I felt similar.

[Claymore]

This was a pretty entertaining rant by Patrick Sullivan on the recent design of Magic cards - focus on Ravenous Chupacabra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=356ilzFF8BE

[Ace/Homebrew]

A similar argument could be made for Modern or Standard; it would be extremely unlikely that a single person could come up with a new, unique, powerful deck concept on their own because there are just too many eyes on the cards.

I believe Modern is the closest thing Magic has to the wild west. Recently Humans became a deck. Previously (as far as I know) a single player brewed a streamlined Scapeshift deck eschewing blue and top 8'd a GP and it is now a DtB. Death's Shadow was a sub par deck until people started working on it and now it's format defining...

I'm not arguing that Modern is a perfect format. The criticism I hear most is that decks are too linear and non-interactive and sideboard cards are too powerful (or game influencing).

I have had fun with Modern when I get burnt out on Legacy. And vice versa. And alternating either with EDH keeps me from getting burnt out on playing competitive matches.