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Thread: The current state of Magic

  1. #681
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    I guess you could still play the Mirage fetches. No cross-color ones, and obviously vulnerable to Waste. But maybe better than nothing? Wouldn't work in Tempo, but should be fine in 4C and Miracles.
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Fetch ban would probably kill legacy simply from a priced out stand point. Current prices make it difficult for many. Fetch ban could maybe almost double the price. An average Grixis/ BUG deck already retails for the price of a used car. Just think if that price climbed closer to vintage prices?
    I'll be bold:

    Does it make a big difference for a 14yo showing interrest in the format if a compeditive deck is 1.6k or potentially 2.5k? In my books both are a totally unacceptable barrier to join the physical format. Joke is that MTGO isn't reasonable either. Can't blame people rather playing Hearthstone, Poker, etc from a monetary perspective.
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  3. #683
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    This is absolutely a fantasy. The suggestion that below TNN there is some egalitarian plateau of 3 drop creatures that are all equally playable is stupid. People will just figure out what the best one is and then use that, c.f. every single other time a card/deck has been banned.

    ...

    If this is true (that putting non-protection 3 drops in your deck is currently such a huge liability) then getting rid of TNN/Leovold means that people don't play 3 drops anymore, not that Trygon Predator suddenly becomes playable.
    Part of the pressure on the three-drop slot is that TNN can block them which makes their "creature-ness" worthless. Take Ramunap Excavator as an example: What good is it to have an attacking Crucible if you can't attack with it AND it dies to creature removal?

    The idea is that without TNN there will be more of a need to be considerate in fair deck construction. There are creatures that are vulnerable to different kinds of removal but have different payoffs for being in play. Decks will be built in a way to maximize that payoff while minimizing the impact of removal.

    Then there is the subjective but present "fun" consideration. Completely uninteractive cards aren't fun or interesting. I had two TNNs out and lost to the other guy who had one TNN and a Jitte. Thrilling! All of these contribute to the larger concerns about staleness in Legacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    If you're implying that TNN is analagous to Chupacabra then I feel like you completely missed the point of his argument. In Legacy TNN is far closer to his Baneslayer example.
    It's somewhere in between. TNN doesn't have a comes-into-play effect, but it does make creature removal less meaningful, which is the major complaint about the parade of ETB effects. You still have to untap with it to get value, yes; but it is incredibly likely that you WILL untap with it, because the few things that answer it are too inefficient to include en masse (unless Innocent Blood gets played a bunch, I suppose.)

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    Edit: Also, about TNN, maybe I'm biased because I play storm and miracles (and other things that can generally just ignore it) is TNN really that big of a deal? Things you can do to beat it include:

    - non-targeting -1/-1 effects (golgari charm, marsh casualties)
    - Meddling Mage effects
    - Counterspells (even in nonblue, as you can REB/Pyroblast it)
    - Council's Judgment
    - Edict Effects
    - Winning the game faster (Combos, stronger board state, even fliers or something?)

    I feel like if the biggest problem with Legacy is, "my opponent sometimes has a Trained Armodon that I JUST CAN'T KILL," we are in a fantastic place. I'm not saying it's not boring, because it's definitely boring, but I can think of at least five things more miserable before getting to it in Legacy.
    Everything in Legacy can theoretically be answered. You could've made the same arguments about Cruise, Dig, and Top which were the last three cards banned. Gaddock Teeg! Phyrexian Revoker! Graveyard removal! Krosan Grip!

    I'm not even really talking about banning here. I'm discussing TNN as a key reason for two of the complaints about the format ITT:

    1. Legacy is too homogenized
    2. New cards can't impact Legacy

    There are many cards that contribute to this fact, but TNN is toward the top of my list. Some may disagree, but it's just a discussion.

  4. #684

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    quotes:maharis
    This is absolutely a fantasy. The suggestion that below TNN there is some egalitarian plateau of 3 drop creatures that are all equally playable is stupid. People will just figure out what the best one is and then use that...
    I think w/o TNN, Czech and BUG decks probably ramp up the Leotards, while UW Blade decks might opt for Geist or Clique. Fish probably forgoes 3-drops altogether. Delver also probably ditches 3-drops of adopts Leo.

    I think we might see more variety in 3 drops just because the next best options have different colour requirements.

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Part of the pressure on the three-drop slot is that TNN can block them which makes their "creature-ness" worthless. Take Ramunap Excavator as an example: What good is it to have an attacking Crucible if you can't attack with it AND it dies to creature removal?
    With Ramunap I doubt it would see much more play because Maverick already runs it and who else would even want to? Maybe a SB card vs Lands and D&T?
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  5. #685

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Does it make a big difference for a 14yo showing interrest in the format if a compeditive deck is 1.6k or potentially 2.5k? In my books both are a totally unacceptable barrier to join the physical format.
    This might be true for the kids, but what about established players?

    A lot of us would need to invest a tonne of money to acquire more duals at the newly inflated price-tag. Meanwhile selling out becomes more tempting than ever. I think all but the strongest communities would be in serious danger.
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  6. #686

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    This might be true for the kids, but what about established players?

    A lot of us would need to invest a tonne of money to acquire more duals at the newly inflated price-tag. Meanwhile selling out becomes more tempting than ever. I think all but the strongest communities would be in serious danger.
    The price trajectory has always been going to annihilate Legacy just as it did Vintage eventually. It's only a matter of when, not if.

  7. #687

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Part of the pressure on the three-drop slot is that TNN can block them which makes their "creature-ness" worthless. Take Ramunap Excavator as an example: What good is it to have an attacking Crucible if you can't attack with it AND it dies to creature removal?

    The idea is that without TNN there will be more of a need to be considerate in fair deck construction. There are creatures that are vulnerable to different kinds of removal but have different payoffs for being in play. Decks will be built in a way to maximize that payoff while minimizing the impact of removal.

    It's somewhere in between. TNN doesn't have a comes-into-play effect, but it does make creature removal less meaningful, which is the major complaint about the parade of ETB effects.
    If TNN is blocking, it's not killing you; doesn't that allow for some space to do busted things with lands from the bin? Also, at least in this comparison, how is TNN different from, say, a Gurmang Angler or a sufficiently large Tarmogoyf that is being Mazed?

    I think the payoff for TNN is that it is very narrowly answerable - Ramunap Excavator may not be as hard to answer, but it can also allow you to do different degenerate things. It may very well be the most powerful thing a creature can be asked to do in Legacy is be both durable and unblockable (and certainly that is a boring role) but that ultimately doesn't really seem banworthy (which you acknowledged).

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    You still have to untap with it to get value, yes; but it is incredibly likely that you WILL untap with it, because the few things that answer it are too inefficient to include en masse (unless Innocent Blood gets played a bunch, I suppose.)

    Everything in Legacy can theoretically be answered. You could've made the same arguments about Cruise, Dig, and Top which were the last three cards banned. Gaddock Teeg! Phyrexian Revoker! Graveyard removal! Krosan Grip!

    I'm not even really talking about banning here.
    I actually think the answers to TNN are more broad and maindeckable in general than the answers to Treasure Cruise, Dig, and Top, but that's just a matter of degrees; I also wouldn't have banned Top, though, so maybe it's not for me to say. I'm just saying, if the issue is that a given deck just can't beat a sulfuric vortex for three or a hexproof darksteel myr, maybe it needs to make the concession of a couple of edict effects or something. That being said, I basically never play fair decks, so I might just not get the frustration on a gut level. I also think that Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time might just actually be on a different level in terms of power, answerable or not (ancestral recall versus arbitrary dude).

  8. #688

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    The price trajectory has always been going to annihilate Legacy just as it did Vintage eventually. It's only a matter of when, not if.
    The difference is the size of the established player base.

    Legacy is fairly healthy (talking size, attendance), and only needs enough new players to counter the players who are dying or quitting.
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  9. #689

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    That being said, I basically never play fair decks, so I might just not get the frustration on a gut level.
    I think I am in a similar boat. Then again, fair deck players are rarely sympathetic when their hate-bears frustrate our more narrow strategies.

    It's not always easy for us to see past our own perspectives. I play Lands, and the meta looks rich and diverse. All my matches are different, interesting, and fun.
    But maybe this is a very boring time to be playing fair-deck vs fair-deck Legacy.

    Also, eg, I might think that if I can tolerate Sneak Show playing Lands, why are people playing FoW decks complaining? But maybe when you're not kicking the snot out of (almost) every fair deck in the field, S&T is a harder oil to swallow?
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    This might be true for the kids, but what about established players?

    A lot of us would need to invest a tonne of money to acquire more duals at the newly inflated price-tag. Meanwhile selling out becomes more tempting than ever. I think all but the strongest communities would be in serious danger.
    As morgan_coke already hinted at, the end is inevitable with rising prices and the Legacy community getting constantly older and barely new, young players picking it up.

    At some point local events die and people sell out. Happened to me with Vintage. I remember when we had weekly events in Munich with 50+ players FOR VINTAGE. Good old days
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  11. #691

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    The difference is the size of the established player base.

    Legacy is fairly healthy (talking size, attendance), and only needs enough new players to counter the players who are dying or quitting.
    Once upon a time that sentiment applied to Type I too. Matter of time man.

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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    As morgan_coke already hinted at, the end is inevitable with rising prices and the Legacy community getting constantly older and barely new, young players picking it up.

    At some point local events die and people sell out. Happened to me with Vintage. I remember when we had weekly events in Munich with 50+ players FOR VINTAGE. Good old days
    I fixed a minor plumbing problem without making things worse last night! I practically got one foot in the grave over here! Won't be long before I sell the collection to pay for applesauce and adult diapers.
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  13. #693

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    At some point local events die and people sell out. Happened to me with Vintage. I remember when we had weekly events in Munich with 50+ players FOR VINTAGE. Good old days
    Anecdotes aside, are you actually saying Vintage once had as large a player base as Legacy has now?
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    I had this conversation the other day.

    Standard sucks. Banning after banning, people will want to leave. They will move to Modern. But Modern will catch them and keep them. Your not going to move from a place where your deck costs a grand to where 3 cards in your mana base do. Your not going to find an easy time justifying that move.

    People are moving into Modern, people are not moving out of it. Why would they? The scene is vibrant, they have no loyalty to Legacy and the idea that your lands don't hurt you is not worth the money it costs to play in our sand pit.
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I had this conversation the other day.

    Standard sucks. Banning after banning, people will want to leave. They will move to Modern. But Modern will catch them and keep them. Your not going to move from a place where your deck costs a grand to where 3 cards in your mana base do. Your not going to find an easy time justifying that move.

    People are moving into Modern, people are not moving out of it. Why would they? The scene is vibrant, they have no loyalty to Legacy and the idea that your lands don't hurt you is not worth the money it costs to play in our sand pit.
    I'm very seriously considering getting out of legacy into modern. For the price of like 2 decks in legacy I can probably build almost any deck in modern.
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I'm very seriously considering getting out of legacy into modern. For the price of like 2 decks in legacy I can probably build almost any deck in modern.
    As someone who migrated to Legacy from Modern I gotta say that I would never consider selling my legacy deck to buy back into it. The games are so dependent on who you get matched up with and whether you draw your SB that skill doesn't feel like a factor. The formats don't even compare at this point. Legacy is way more fun.
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Agree there, it's not uncommon to see Modern players trying to see how they can port their deck to Legacy. Modern is much more of a coin flip format, no matter how much CFB constantly puts out articles saying otherwise.
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  18. #698
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Modern's nowhere near as bad as Legacy players crack it up to be, and Legacy's not quite as skilltesting or amazing as its playerbase claims. That's not to say that Modern's gameplay is quite as good as Legacy's, but when you factor in price and availability of games, ditching Legacy for Modern isn't the worst idea. The main reason I'd advise against it is you'd be selling out of the Reserved List and buying into regularly reprinted cards.

  19. #699

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Misersoneof View Post
    As someone who migrated to Legacy from Modern I gotta say that I would never consider selling my legacy deck to buy back into it. The games are so dependent on who you get matched up with and whether you draw your SB that skill doesn't feel like a factor. The formats don't even compare at this point. Legacy is way more fun.
    You and I know that, but too many kids these days think of Legacy as a degenerate format of turn one wins.
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
    Modern's nowhere near as bad as Legacy players crack it up to be, and Legacy's not quite as skilltesting or amazing as its playerbase claims. That's not to say that Modern's gameplay is quite as good as Legacy's, but when you factor in price and availability of games, ditching Legacy for Modern isn't the worst idea. The main reason I'd advise against it is you'd be selling out of the Reserved List and buying into regularly reprinted cards.
    Agreed completely here. The more I've played modern it's fine. Legacy isn't super interesting right now and I think in Modern you can do more off the wall stuff right now, though the top decks besides Death's Shadow do tend to try to be linear and ignore the opponent which is annoying. The whole selling RL stuff for non RL stuff is definitely the biggest factor in being hesitant. I'll still keep a deck for legacy, but meh. The format has passed me by. When I was actually top 8ing opens I paid way more attention to the format than I do now. Time to just build my one true love Deadguy again and ride away in the sunset
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