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Thread: The current state of Magic

  1. #661
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    for years i advocated to ban brainstorm. in fact i was one of the first on this board and got laughed at. but nowdays i dont think bs is the problem, nor is drs. the problem are fetchlands. they allow for ridicilous synergies and mana bases and also stall the game. so i think fetchlands should be banned.
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  2. #662
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    What has worked for me was not playing. Deck building is the best part of the game to me and that basically doesn't exist anymore at a competitive level. I have more fun building my deck than when I actually end up playing it whether I win or lose. Every night I leave legacy I feel like I have just wasted my time playing against the same shit I've played against for 4 years. But I always enjoy going home and building a deck before I remember that my deck can't remove a goddamn True Name and I die to random idiot who does everything wrong except play this shit 3 drop Progenitus
    Amen to that brother, I 100% agree about the fun in brewing/deckbuilding. Luckily I have a fairly diverse local metagame that plays a couple grixis delver, a couple miracles, at least 2 Chalice/Stompy players, Death and Taxes, at least 2 storm players, 2 off/on Pox players, and a Maverick/Nic Fit player consistently. It makes for a fairly random spread each time I play (with my janky shit, lol.) I do a lot of modern as well. I truly do believe there are potential decks out there to develop, but it has been stagnated lately by 'herp derp' set design that focuses almost solely on Standard. They literally did a set with both pirates and dinosaurs. The closest thing we've gotten lately is As Foretold and Hazoret's Undying Fury, both of which aren't really making any real splash (but I haven't given up on Ruby Storm yet...)

    I really think True Name is worse than DRS for the format. The setup for landing a Progenitus (Natural Order) takes effort. A blue three drop? In legacy it's easier than Alex Trebeck's mom. Leovold is also just fucking stupid in terms of what it does.
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  3. #663
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    NO is also heavily nonblue and a risk to cast at all. NO, Glimpse, Storm and traditional A+B combos usually all require exposing a piece before casting the second. TNN, you're risking one card to get to a stupid gamestate. S&T, you're exposing one card to get to a stupid gamestate.
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    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  4. #664

    Re: The current state of Magic

    SnT should go away for the same reason Mystical Tutor did. They're not going to stop printing ever stupider giant monsters, so the card just becomes more and more and more of a problem.
    TNN and Leovold should go away for being at the power level of "Big stupider monsters" but costing 3 mana and being blue.

  5. #665

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    They're not going to stop printing ever stupider giant monsters, so the card just becomes more and more and more of a problem.
    I think we are pretty close to the asymptote as far as stupid giant monsters that essentially win on the spot.
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  6. #666

    Re: The current state of Magic

    I think OG Emrakul and Griselbrand represent the high water mark for asinine power levels on big monsters. Most of the big splashy monsters they make these days don't do anything that matters in Legacy, so no matter how strong they are on paper they never break out. The format now is all about raw efficiency along some vector, and Emrakul is the best attacking creature while Griselbrand is the best card advantage creature. There's a reason SnT has edged Reanimator out of the format and it's because none of the other fatties people used to cheat into play come anywhere close to touching those two in their respective domains.

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Of course, all those cards also shut off the controller's ability to use cards like Thoughtseize and STP that are good. A non-symmetrical cantrip hate card that blue decks somehow can't play would be nice. Would have to hit blue specifically or cost like BBB so that the U decks can't play it.
    This card has existed almost since day one in the form of Chains of Mephistopheles. The problem with cards like this is that they preclude you from running your own consistency fixers so over a lot of games, you tend to lose more often than you would if you just ran cantrips and tried to fight Turbo Xerox with Turbo Xerox. It's part of the reason why some variation of UGxy Threshold-ish decks have been viable in Legacy for years while non-blue decks tend to be more flavor of the month.

  7. #667
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    What has worked for me was not playing. Deck building is the best part of the game to me and that basically doesn't exist anymore at a competitive level. I have more fun building my deck than when I actually end up playing it whether I win or lose. Every night I leave legacy I feel like I have just wasted my time playing against the same shit I've played against for 4 years. But I always enjoy going home and building a deck before I remember that my deck can't remove a goddamn True Name and I die to random idiot who does everything wrong except play this shit 3 drop Progenitus
    4 years? Delver was printed in 2011, Terminus 8 months later, and DRS 5 months after that. Shitty Legacy started 1st grade this year.

    *sniff* They grow up so fast!
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  8. #668

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    SnT should go away for the same reason Mystical Tutor did. They're not going to stop printing ever stupider giant monsters, so the card just becomes more and more and more of a problem.
    Except they did stop printing ever stupider giant monsters. The last time they printed something that was better than what Show and Tell already was running was back in 2012, more than five years ago.

  9. #669
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    I never mentioned bans. That's between you and Echelnon.
    That ended in me agreeing with Dice, so everything's cool there
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  10. #670

    Re: The current state of Magic

    quotes:maharis

    Absent TNN, some of those decks would play Clique, some would play Knight, some would play Mirran Crusader or Trygon Predator or Geist or Shardless or something else. It would provide a more varied tournament experience and require more thought at the point of deckbuilding.
    This is absolutely a fantasy. The suggestion that below TNN there is some egalitarian plateau of 3 drop creatures that are all equally playable is stupid. People will just figure out what the best one is and then use that, c.f. every single other time a card/deck has been banned.

    In his Ravenous Chupacabra rant, Patrick Sullivan hit on this point nicely. He said that with every creature providing value as it hits the table, there's no tension in seeing if you get to untap with your bomb. You don't really care what your opponent does because you got your thing. It's a problem across MTG right now, not just Legacy, and hopefully they will find a way to fix it soon.
    If you're implying that TNN is analagous to Chupacabra then I feel like you completely missed the point of his argument. In Legacy TNN is far closer to his Baneslayer example.

    Or, to rephrase: Putting a 3-drop in your deck that can be removed for no value by a STP is not tenable as long as you have the option not to. Absent TNN, everyone's 3-drops would be vulnerable enough that it would be a fairer fight.
    If this is true (that putting non-protection 3 drops in your deck is currently such a huge liability) then getting rid of TNN/Leovold means that people don't play 3 drops anymore, not that Trygon Predator suddenly becomes playable.

  11. #671
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    for years i advocated to ban brainstorm. in fact i was one of the first on this board and got laughed at. but nowdays i dont think bs is the problem, nor is drs. the problem are fetchlands. they allow for ridicilous synergies and mana bases and also stall the game. so i think fetchlands should be banned.
    Said this prior to the whole TC & DTT bans already and repeated it since then until the SDT ban and through the usual BS complaints.

    None of the haunting engines in Legacy would work without Fetchlands. We would not have 4c goodstuff decks, no BS/Ponder cherrypicking, no DRS menace and no one would have banned all the cards of recent years. The joke is that some players think a ban would hurt their already inferior non-blue decks more than it would fuck over all the blue decks, as if S&T would be able to work properly without the cantrip/fetch cardselection.
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  12. #672
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Elves! would still be pretty damn good without fetchlands. I'm up for it
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  13. #673

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    None of the haunting engines in Legacy would work without Fetchlands.
    I agree, but an Underground Sea already costs something like three hundred bucks - the incidental damage is unfortunate WRT shuffling, but unless the reserved list goes away, Fetches are also one of the only reasons Legacy as we know it is still playable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    We would not have 4c goodstuff decks, no BS/Ponder cherrypicking, no DRS menace and no one would have banned all the cards of recent years.
    I think we would still have 4C Goodstuff decks, their mana would just be slightly worse (and much more expensive). Brainstorm and DRS would definitely get a nerf, but Ponder would still be a good card. I'm actually not sure about the bans; it might've saved them, but perhaps not; it's hard to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    The joke is that some players think a ban would hurt their already inferior non-blue decks more than it would fuck over all the blue decks.
    I'm also not sure about this - I think I still take the cantrip deck over the non-cantrip deck, even in hypothetical fetchless Legacy. Sure, maybe SNT and delver variants get a little worse, but even if you're only working with Ponders and Preordains, there are going to be plenty of games where the blue player finds the right combination of throusand dollar duals and/or combo pieces and their nonblue opponent just doesn't.

    Overall, I agree with you, though - if it were possible to do without destroying the already-tenuous economy of the format, I'd love to try it.


    Edit: Also, about TNN, maybe I'm biased because I play storm and miracles (and other things that can generally just ignore it) is TNN really that big of a deal? Things you can do to beat it include:

    - non-targeting -1/-1 effects (golgari charm, marsh casualties)
    - Meddling Mage effects
    - Counterspells (even in nonblue, as you can REB/Pyroblast it)
    - Council's Judgment
    - Edict Effects
    - Winning the game faster (Combos, stronger board state, even fliers or something?)

    I feel like if the biggest problem with Legacy is, "my opponent sometimes has a Trained Armodon that I JUST CAN'T KILL," we are in a fantastic place. I'm not saying it's not boring, because it's definitely boring, but I can think of at least five things more miserable before getting to it in Legacy.

  14. #674
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    The money for some of the manabases sure is a problem but stuff like Land Tax or Eternal Dragon for manafixing still exists (sorry I am old and lack newer examples). Legacy decks are also long gone from being reasonable affordable for average kids/highschoolers to buy in and I guess we see the effect in the rising age of players. I am not sure the current stalemate of the format in terms of being somewhat solved and ridiculously expensive is able to be solved easily. Prining "snow duals" doesn't fix the stale format of 4c goodstuff, banning fetches to mess with the 4c cantrip orgy just makes the format more expensive and dull.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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  15. #675

    Re: The current state of Magic

    I support banning fetchlands because it would make Astral Slide viable again, as cycling would be a very strong card selection engine that isn't fetch dependent, at all. YMMV.

  16. #676

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    ...
    None of the haunting engines in Legacy would work without Fetchlands. We would not have 4c goodstuff decks, no BS/Ponder cherrypicking, no DRS menace and no one would have banned all the cards of recent years. The joke is that some players think a ban would hurt their already inferior non-blue decks more than it would fuck over all the blue decks, as if S&T would be able to work properly without the cantrip/fetch cardselection.
    Banning the fetchlands would certainly change the format. Decks with less reliance on splashes or using alternative land mechanics would be much stronger in that setting. So lands and tribal stuff would be obvious things to consider in that format.

  17. #677

    Re: The current state of Magic

    In other news, Kotaku has an article up discussing how the economy works so far in MTG: Arena. The wildcard and vault things seem pretty solid. Only getting cards from packs does not.

    https://kotaku.com/how-buying-cards-...ena-1822151318

  18. #678

    Re: The current state of Magic

    I think without fetchlands even 3 colour decks would be a stretch.

    I guess tempo decks can run w/o basics, but fetchlands allow midrange decks to run on just a couple basics and not be easily blown out by Wasteland, Moon, B2B, etc.

    As a Lands player, my inclination might be to test replacing 3 fetches with 2x Field Of Ruin and an extra Forest.. But I doubt many decks could afford to run that clunky piece of jank.

    I'd be careful what to wish for...
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  19. #679
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Fetch ban would probably kill legacy simply from a priced out stand point. Current prices make it difficult for many. Fetch ban could maybe almost double the price. An average Grixis/ BUG deck already retails for the price of a used car. Just think if that price climbed closer to vintage prices?
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  20. #680
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    In other news, Kotaku has an article up discussing how the economy works so far in MTG: Arena. The wildcard and vault things seem pretty solid. Only getting cards from packs does not.

    https://kotaku.com/how-buying-cards-...ena-1822151318
    There's supposed to be an article up later this day on the MtG Arena site. It wouldn't suprise me in the slightest if Kotaku broke the NDA for a few cheap clicks.

    Edit: There's also going to be a stream on https://www.twitch.tv/magic later today.

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