The current state of Magic

[Barook]

I don't understand people playing standard. That is all. :)

IIRC from surveys, the main reason is tournament support. Certainly not because Standard is a deep, strategic format. Take away tournament support and it will die like a bitch. That could be one of the main reasons why WotC is pushing Standard so hard, because in their logic, more Standard tournaments = more Standard players = more $$$.

If WotC will ban some stuff AGAIN, the game is going full YuGiOh with the cycle of "print format warping stuff to sell packs, let the cards wreck the format for 8 weeks, ban the cards and promote the next format warping cards they'll print in the upcoming set"

That's just hyperbole. It was never the goal of WotC to go full YuGiOh, it's more of a side-effect of piss-poor R&D. If they had printed proper answers in time, those problems wouldn't exist.

[Claymore]

Watching the current MTGO Championship, I have to wonder if Standard implodes rather sooner than later. Considering the entire metagame is Twin combo, Mardu Vehicles and BG Aggro in roughly equal parts (according to tournament data) basically demands another round of bans next Monday, further shaking the format.

I also don't think that their overzealous focus on Standard is going to sell more packs. The overexposure to the format only gets people bored with it faster, not to mention it increases the speed the format is solved.

We're living in rather interesting (or boring, if you play Standard) times.

Isn't standard supposed to be a super simple format though? An equally portioned rock/paper/scissors format seems like the goal for Wizards. Assuming the matchups line up like that.

[Dice_Box]

I have a question and this may not be the best place to ask, but it's food for thought perhaps.

Why is it we hate Standard and yet (some) seem to love 93/94? It's basically the same bloody thing. A limited and solvable format. Sure, one is more complex than there other, even if the creatures are weaker, but all the same issues that we argue are present in Standard exist on Old School.

[H]

That's just hyperbole. It was never the goal of WotC to go full YuGiOh, it's more of a side-effect of piss-poor R&D. If they had printed proper answers in time, those problems wouldn't exist.

Well, I think it is probable that the bans had more to do with the way people's bitching about, and them capitulating on, the rotation schedule than it does with anything else. They didn't plan to have this Standard environment and it shows, they just have to wait for Q4 '17 to get back on track..

Not that I am really defending R&D's competence, given how they missed the whole Saheeli-Cat interaction, but I don't think we'll be seeing another Standard ban for a long time.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Why is it we hate Standard and yet (some) seem to love 93/94?

Equal parts nostalgia and elitism.

[s&s]

Isn't standard supposed to be a super simple format though? An equally portioned rock/paper/scissors format seems like the goal for Wizards.

Too bad their R&D keeps making it into rock/paper/bazooka/fighter jet.

[jrsthethird]

I have a question and this may not be the best place to ask, but it's food for thought perhaps.

Why is it we hate Standard and yet (some) seem to love 93/94? It's basically the same bloody thing. A limited and solvable format. Sure, one is more complex than there other, even if the creatures are weaker, but all the same issues that we argue are present in Standard exist on Old School.

Nostalgia sustains Old School, tournament support and competitive drive drive Standard.

[Barook]

Well, I think it is probable that the bans had more to do with the way people's bitching about, and them capitulating on, the rotation schedule than it does with anything else. They didn't plan to have this Standard environment and it shows, they just have to wait for Q4 '17 to get back on track..

Not that I am really defending R&D's competence, given how they missed the whole Saheeli-Cat interaction, but I don't think we'll be seeing another Standard ban for a long time.

The increased rotation schedule is probably more akin to what Lemnear described. Best example would be the fetchland/dual Standard they were willing to make because it would only last half a year. There definitely was a push towards more powerful cards due to shorter rotation times, but it doesn't explain the current fuck-ups.

Aside from Reflector Mage, which would have rotated in April, both Smuggler's Copter and Memerakul would have been in Standard for quite a while. Not to mention the dumb shit like Twin combo or Heart of Kiran as replacement for Copter. All of those would have plagued Standard for many more months even under the 1.5 year rotation schedule.

Equal parts nostalgia and elitism.

This - nostalgia and dickwaving. As somebody who started with Tempest, I simply don't care about it since I lack the nostalgia goggles.

[H]

The increased rotation schedule is probably more akin to what Lemnear described. Best example would be the fetchland/dual Standard they were willing to make because it would only last half a year. There definitely was a push towards more powerful cards due to shorter rotation times, but it doesn't explain the current fuck-ups.

Aside from Reflector Mage, which would have rotated in April, both Smuggler's Copter and Memerakul would have been in Standard for quite a while. Not to mention the dumb shit like Twin combo or Heart of Kiran as replacement for Copter. All of those would have plagued Standard for many more months even under the 1.5 year rotation schedule.

Well, I didn't mean that Copter and Emmy weren't mistakes, but rather the bans was necessitated by the botched rotation change. A larger card pool doesn't really mean more things are viable, a priori, consider Vintage, for example.

Then again, I haven't played Standard since 2011, so maybe I'm wrong and rotation or not they all get banned (well not the Mage, it would have just rotated).

[Barook]

Well, I didn't mean that Copter and Emmy weren't mistakes, but rather the bans was necessitated by the botched rotation change.

The bans were necessary because player attendance dropped to a degree that Wizards did panic. As I said before, even with the faster rotation around, Standard couldn't handle another 9 months of Emrakul or 15 months of Copter. Blaming the rotation completely misses the point, especially when they just introduced another set of cards that might get the axe (Guardian/Heart of Kiran). Wizards even admitted they were too laid back in the past when it came to Standard bans. Collected Company might have been banned under the current system.

On a different note:
People love to bitch about Modern being "unhealty right now", but was there ever a state when it actually was "healty"?

[Kage]

People love to bitch about Modern being "unhealty right now", but was there ever a state when it actually was "healty"?

I'm far from a modern expert, but if you look at a format where a 52-card deck with 1-mana Demonic Tutors and 1G 6/7s and 1-mana 8/8s (Death's Shadow Zoo) are fine, yet Counterspell and Opt are considered too powerful, you might get the idea why the metagame is messed up.

[ESG]

I have a question and this may not be the best place to ask, but it's food for thought perhaps.

Why is it we hate Standard and yet (some) seem to love 93/94? It's basically the same bloody thing. A limited and solvable format. Sure, one is more complex than there other, even if the creatures are weaker, but all the same issues that we argue are present in Standard exist on Old School.

Because the aesthetics and flavor were amazing then and are dreadful now. Old borders > new borders. Handpainted art and unrestrained creative style > digital art and boring color palettes. Also, this mimickry of the Justice League with the Gatewatch is stupid and at odds with what made Magic cool in the beginning. Old School is wonderful because it relives the purity of game's early days. People aren't playing Old School because they're trying to figure out how to break the format.

Edit: Also, to give some credit to Standard, I do like the various Copy Cat decks and find them appealing. The general situation for me is that there's only so much time I have for Magic, and I'm going to spend it on Legacy and Cube -- the formats with the most strategic depth -- or on Old School, which I do for nostalgia.

[Barook]

I'm far from a modern expert, but if you look at a format where a 52-card deck with 1-mana Demonic Tutors and 1G 6/7s and 1-mana 8/8s (Death's Shadow Zoo) are fine, yet Counterspell and Opt are considered too powerful, you might get the idea why the metagame is messed up.

Gitaxian Probe is a dumb card. I remember the thread where it turned out that the majority of the Source users hate that card with a passion.

As for the 52 card deck, they did their part by banning Probe. Sure, they still have Bauble and Wraith, but I wouldn't be suprised if those bite the dust sooner or later, too, alongside SSG (and Mox Opal).

Death's Shadow also wouldn't be a problem if they had StP in the format to manhandle it.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

the period from the pod banning up until the twin ban is considered a high point and well liked.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Death's Shadow also wouldn't be a problem if they had StP in the format to manhandle it.

Can you explain? Isn't Path to Exile the same thing?

[nedleeds]

you 2 for 1 two deaths shadow with plow. one reason it is wretched in eternal. path you are -1 'card' in most cases.

[Dice_Box]

Can you explain? Isn't Path to Exile the same thing?

No. You swords one Shadow, all others die too. Also, in formats where mana costs are low and Counterspells make you pay mana, ramping someone is a much bigger cost than giving them life almost all the time.

[Ace/Homebrew]

you 2 for 1 two deaths shadow with plow. one reason it is wretched in eternal. path you are -1 'card' in most cases.

Ahhhh! Right, because of the words on the card.
I should read those...

[rlesko]

I don't see the justification for banning Bauble and Wraith...probe was a different story. It clearly takes a dedication from your deck to fuel delirium fast and grave hate is very effective against it so I'm not sure what else you could ask for from a mechanic (powerful in the right deck, but susceptible to commonly played hate). Bauble needs a reprint for sure but isn't doing anything inherently broken or enabling something broken.

[phonics]

I have a question and this may not be the best place to ask, but it's food for thought perhaps.

Why is it we hate Standard and yet (some) seem to love 93/94? It's basically the same bloody thing. A limited and solvable format. Sure, one is more complex than there other, even if the creatures are weaker, but all the same issues that we argue are present in Standard exist on Old School.

I think the big difference is that old school has some super strong cards, but in the end it is about gaining incremental advantages to get a win, I dont really follow the format, but iirc Jayemdae tome is playable and quite good, which is a testament to how grindy games get. Creatures and combos are so strong in newer sets that they will just end the game without a prompt answer and often that means games just turn into a contest of who draws more answers.