ThisOriginally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
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You do realize the people posting in this thread against the proposed change, are also players? Ignoring their opinion and labeling them as elitists is not a great way to grow the game.
Since that is the only argument that seems relevant to you, perhaps its not worth discussing further. Lets not mention things such as consumer confidence, how resellers and collectors would be affected, how WoTC would price / compose a set with reprints of 200$+ cards, .. derp.
Here's my take on this:
TLDR: The Reserve List will be broken. It's only a matter of when, and to what extent.
Hasbro is a publicly traded company with shareholders. As a public company, they are judged almost purely on their earnings, which directly affects their stock price. Maintaining/Growing a company's stock price is one of the biggest KPIs for the board. The reason for this is alot of the debt a company usually incurs, utilizes its stock as collateral. When stock price dips too much, lenders can exercise margin calls, and create severe cashflow issues within the company.
One key factor affecting stock price is earnings, of which, MTG is a core pillar of. MTG has been registering tremendous growth in the past few years, but have recently started to saturate. i would argue - and this is purely my opinion, that the only reason growth has not stagnated faster is because of all the gimmicks they have been coming up with - Expeditions, Masterpiece, Modern Masters and Eternal Masters. Just consider the rate they are doing this as compared to previous times.
However, Magic fatigue is real. There is only so many products you can buy, before you start losing interest in the game. When this happens in a large enough scale, and we see earnings target being missed, or player base decreasing, that is when you will see them playing their ace in the hole - the reserve list.
The Reserve list is WOTC's/Hasbro get out of jail free card (or keep my job and high bonus). That by itself, would likely be able to reverse the trend, and immediately draw interest back into the game, and aid them in overachieving their earnings target for that fiscal year. Even if WOTC does not want to, there will be enough pressure from senior execs in Hasbro to make it happen - especially when earnings are suffering.
To manage public sentiment, there will be some sort of compromise - All cards from revised onwards are fair game for reprints. In this way, they keep the allure of Power 9 (which affects collectors the most), prices from Alpha & Beta are also unlikely to be affected due to scarcity and pimp factor. They will however be able to print duals, LEDs, etc, which will be more than sufficient in driving revenue. (at least this is how i would do it)
For those arguing that collectors will sue - sure. However, i cannot see how they amount they have to payout to these collectors will be even close to the revenue they can generate from reprinting duals. (that is even if the collectors have an actual case) - especially when the value of alpha beta cards will actually increase when such a reprinting occur.
The Reserve List is simply waiting for the rainy day to be cashed in.
Given the shift away from legacy and vintage at every level, its unreasonable to assume that WoTC has any such plans for the future.
"hai guys we stopped doing events and coverage for older formats, because we wanted to start reprinting those older formats so we can focus on them for financial gains"
Its not even part of their 10-year strategy, guaranteed.
Did you even read your own post? We outlined ad Nauseam that the format can not grow with the RL and marginal reprints, so if people argue thst this game should be inaccessible, so no one can play, its absurd to credit them as "players caring for the format". Customer Confidence is a bullshit term and a synonym for "protecting the value of my collection" and has NOTHING to do with the fact that the format dies because no new player can pick up decks at the current prices. I have no idea what kind of wack perspective you have on economics claiming that current card values have ANY meaning for a reprint included into a set. If WotC reprints FoW at common in the next block, you would claim its still a 70$ card?
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You seem blinded by rage.
I play legacy with a large group of players which all have collections. A lot of them would be very unhappy if the value of their collection tanked due to reprints.
So yes, I care about keeping those players active, so I don't want reprints.
I also want stores such as SCG being able to provide what they do, so ruining their main source of income is something I don't want either. They are not making big cash on selling closed product, since margins on that are relatively low given the competition. SCG site offers 39 boxes of Aether revolt at 79.99$ / each, which is less then the value of 1 power 9 card, of which they have dozens in stock.They have 64! Tundra for sale, just the revised ones are over 6.000$ in stock value.
GP Chiba had over 2.5k players, the whole "format is inacessible" is people that want but can't. How come 2K asians can pick up an inaccessible format of which the original cards were never even sold there?
Guess they spent money on it, lets not alienate them by wrecking their investment.
How many reserved list cards do you own? If you want to attract new players who are priced out, what's stopping you from selling your duals and LEDs to interested modern players at half their current market value? If you don't care about the loss of collection value such a policy shift would cause, put your money where your mouth is and sell off your own stuff on the cheap. I have no interest in seeing mine devalued.
q.e.d.
"Customer Confidence " = " I don't want my collection (and those of my friends) to lose value"
I sold what I don't need years ago and keep selling value stuff I get hands on. Nice strawman, dood. I am way ahead of you.
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Sure. At which price do you sell that value stuff? Surely you do so well below market value, if you are so eager to keep the prices low so that new blood may enter the scene.
Usually 10% below TCG in the respective FB group. What do you want from me here? I do my part by returning cards into circulation unlike hoarders like you and while you drive up prices, you dare to still piss on my shoes?
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Why do you dare to call me a hoarder? You have no idea about the size or contents of my collection, primarily because I didn't share that information. So don't assume (you can finish that boring old joke yourself).
Abolishing that list would drive the prices of post-Revised cards, WB Revised stuff and Italian Dark and Legends staples down way more than 10%. The hit people would take on entire collections would be bigger than what you claim to take on an occasional sale.
This guy just calls arguments he doesn't understand "bullshit", anyone that doesn't agree is "a hoarder" and that is pretty much the time to exit the discussion.
The entitlement issue is far to large to reason with.
There are people complaining that legacy is inaccessible, conveniently ignoring the succes of GP Chiba - but it goes beyond that; staples should be reprinted and cheap - so these guys can play at competitive level, because being able to play with proxies isn't good enough.
So, is it about being able to play the format, or is it about being able to play the format at the highest level without having to pay for it?
Its nr 2 without a doubt. Anyone that thinks WoTC is going to cater to such desires really needs to consider it again. Its not like FOW was reprinted as a common, now is it. Why wasn't it? /lament
Wreck my investment. Please.
I want people to play with. You know, OTHER PLAYERS?
Right now, no one in my area (outside of a single old friend) plays Legacy. When I go to play on "Modern Mondays" at the LGS, there are only a handful of players who can even afford play that. This is a college town, there are tons of kids down for FNM, but none of them can afford to play even Modern let alone Legacy. Everyone I talk to about it says they'd _like_ to play Legacy but they just can't afford it.
While Standard has it's own problems with cost, it's not the same as asking someone to dump $2000 into a deck/cardpool to get started. The cost is upfront, but it's completely out of reach for these players. Not to mention, most of them don't have the nostalgia for these cards like the older players do. They don't have any attachment to slinging Hymn to Tourach or Force of Will. To them, they're just powerful cards. That's not enough of a draw for potentially new players who were likely BORN after those card were printed.
I'm sorry, but the format has to grow or it's just going to go the way of vintage and disappear.
End the Reserved List.
Why does it seem like those most vocally opposed to the abolishment of the reserved list believe that we'll see Chronicles scale reprints? There has to be an intelligent compromise between "no reprints at all" and "print Black Lotus at common hurr durr".
As for the entitlement argument, those clinging to the reserved list should avoid throwing that around...just because you ~possibly~ bought in when prices were high doesn't mean you deserve to turn a profit or even recoup that money down the road. Artificial scarcity is the only thing that's keeping your "investment" safe, and that safety is not something to which any one should be entitled.
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is NOT a Legacy deck.
Perhaps, but unlike what your side potentially brings to the table, your arguments don't scare them with the potential of lawsuits.
They made a promise, I spent money based on the contents of that promise, I expect it to be honoured. Plenty of folks like me who think the same, and plenty of large card dealers.
If you can't afford to play with the grown ups, there's always Standard. WotC would love you if you'd play that.
The "success of GP chiba" argument defies logic. Is the claim that all asians are poor, therefore if Legacy thrives there, it must be an accessible format? That's bonkers.
I think it would be interesting to see how many of the individuals who want no changes to the reserved list recently bought in to Legacy (and thus would actually lose money from reprints) and how many bought in when reserved list staples were still more readily accessible.
"Legacy is for grown-ups, go play Standard" only reinforces the attitudes of elitism and entitlement from the "protect my investment" crowd, and contributes nothing of value to the conversation and to the growth of a format we all supposedly love.
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is NOT a Legacy deck.
No, the argument is that older editions were never even sold in Asia, so its not players from the good old days that still have their duals, its new players that have picked up the format. The format is accessible to them, despite all claims of how the format isn't so.
I do not appreciate racism being implied, we have the media for stuff like that.
I am all for demolishing the RL and I don't give a fuck about tanking my collection. In the end, I was lucky to buy a lot of cards when prices were still reasonable, it would be very wrong for me to "value" my "collection" at the current market prices because I only payed like a quarter of what it is worth now. Some people seem to forget that they actualy bought their Underground Sea's for $20 bucks a piece but now feel entitled to sell them at $300 a piece and not a cent less...
At the moment I live in Belgium and I am blessed that I can play Legacy, but at the end of this month I move to Bangkok. In Thailand there is no Legacy community because noone can afford RL cards. On the other hand, the biggest format is Modern and only after the first Modern Masters print. For Thais it was the first opportunity to finaly have access to older Modern staples. If they ever want to play Legacy, they need an Eternal Masters print with RL-stuff, it's never going to happen otherwise! Sadly enough for the Thais, some hoarders simply feel elite and entitled enough to sit on their collection, probably without even bothering to play, they just see mtg cards as stocks... !news flash! Mtg is a GAME...
(oh and it's not simply a matter of owning the money to buy the cards, it's also about getting them delivered to you. No sane person would ever buy a $300 Underground sea and take a gamble on the Thai postage service...)
Never said to ignore them, I said that these arguments should actually be presented and not hand waived under smug condescension, as their seems to be little discernible benefit to the format, but thanks for pointing that out, I would have never actually guessed that people posting in a Magic: The Gathering forum for the format Legacy actually played Magic: The Gathering, once I'm done, I shall spend the rest of the evening pondering this fact until I sufficiently grok this fact
As for the other things, I'm not sure how reprints and ending the reserved list are hurting consumer confidence any more than standard bans and continued neglect and mismanagement of MTGO. Cards such as Imperial Seal (which is among the most valuable non reserved list card) and Tarmogoyf have been reprinted yet consumer confidence has yet to be seriously impacted, in fact, Modern Masters was one of the highest selling sets and it's accompanying GP one of the most attended in recent history. If WOTC were to compose a set of entirely $200 cards, sure that might, but when has WOTC done that, they've learned from Chronicles and likely aren't going to repeat that mistake (presumably, as that is why the reserved list came to be in the first place).
For that matter, I highly doubt stores would be seriously affected. Places like SCG make their money from standard staples due to them being cheaper to buy and sell, it's much easier for a store to sell 30 $100 Underground Seas than 10 $300 underground seas. In certain cases, this could actually help stores due to the increased attention and demand the formats affected by it would bring, foils for Onslaught fetches went up with Khans due to modern players wanting their set as an example.
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