New to Legacy (3 deck ideas)

[braids]

Hello fellow magic players,

I'm just now trying to get into Legacy, I know right.... way late.. (I've played my pauper storm deck vs Legacy players a few times but never anything serious... grapeshot ftw).
I'm going to be building two decks to get me started and I'd like some people (you lovelies) to guide me into not wasting money. :P

It's my first post here so I'd like to say Hi2yoooou and hope I don't mess up the formatting of my post (this forum's board is a bit different than I'm used to). Is there a way to add spoilers to compact this post? Please, do tell :P

So here are three lists I've come up with starting with the most serious one leading down to the most experimental one.

Deck 1, mono black land denial/hand disruption. Not quite pox, not quite gate. Needs two more sideboard cards and I'm thinking Dark Confidant might kill me in this deck.

//Creatures (14)
4x Dark Confidant
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
1x Helldozer
2x Phyrexian Obliterator
4x Vampire Nighthawk

//Sorcery (16)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox

//Instants (4)
4x Dark Ritual

//Artifacts (2)
2x Crucible of Worlds

//Enchantments (3)
3x Bitterblossom

//Land (21)
2x Bojuka Bog
13x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Wasteland

//Sideboard (13)
2x Chains of Mephistopheles
4x Engineered Plague
4x Extirpate
2x Planar Void
1x The Abyss


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Deck 2: what a joke... trying to kill someone with rocket launcher/magma mine. Again, it has missing cards in the SB. This deck tries to produce infinite mana asap and blow someone away with a mine or rocket. The sideboarded banefire/exsanq would be for matchups with hexproof or lots of counterspells.
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//Artifacts (11)
3x Basalt Monolith
3x Grim Monolith
3x Magma Mine
2x Rocket Launcher

//Instant (8)
4x Force of Will
3x Muddle the Mixture
1x Pact of Negation

//Sorcery (8)
3x Ponder
3x Preordain
2x Train of Thought

//Enchantments (4)
4x Power Artifact

//Creatures (8)
4x Grand Architect
4x Pili-Pala

//Land (21)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Crystal Vein
13x Island

//Sideboard (12)
4x Apostle's Blessing
2x Banefire
2x Exsanguinate
3x Pact of Negation
1x Spell Pierce


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Deck 3: Last Laugh. I know... it's ridiculous and probably won't ever work how I want it to... trying to put Pariah and Soul Link on Stuffy Doll while having Last Laugh/Pestilence in play. Entomb/Liliana of the Veil and Replenish are there to try to cheat multiple enchantments into play in a single turn.
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//Enchantments
1x Exquisite Blood
3x Last Laugh
4x Pariah
2x Pestilence
1x Sanguine Bond
2x Soul Link

//Creatures
2x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
3x Stuffy Doll

//Artifacts
2x Crucible of Worlds

//Instants
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
2x Rain of Filth

//Sorcery
1x Armageddon
1x Damnation
1x Pox
3x Replenish

//Planeswalkers
3x Liliana of the Veil

//Land (21)
4x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
4x Scrubland
3x Swamp
4x Wasteland



Idk what my deal is with 21 lands, I'm sure this is totally wrong.

Thanks for taking a look and possibly the time to reply.

oh yeah, and for lulz
DECK: THE ULTIMATE STORM... CROW

//Creatures (24)
3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Judge's Familiar
3x Keeper of the Nine Gales
4x Soulcatcher
4x Storm Crow
4x Thrummingbird
2x Wingmate Roc

//Land (22)
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Flooded Strand
3x Island
3x Plains
4x Seaside Haven
4x Tundra

//Enchantments (10)
4x Favorable Winds
2x Moat
4x Soulcatchers' Aerie

//Sorcery (4)
3x Airborne Aid
1x Armageddon

//Sideboard (15)
3x Force of Will
3x Rest in Peace
3x Stony Silence
2x Submerge
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Wash Out

[Weapon X]

I'll give you my honest answer of if you are new to legacy pick an existing deck to play and learn the format before you try to brew. You should immediately see cards that work simply by playing against the common decks in the format. Play the gate as that seems to be what you want to play. Don't reinvent the wheel.

[braids]

Thanks for your honesty.
I've watched tons of Legacy, just never sat down to play it because where I used to live 0 people played the format. Discussing on forums will also help me learn the format better, wouldn't you agree? You're right about going with an established deck, but I'm still interested in trying something else. That's what magic is to me, theorycraft, but with no big basis to stand on I thought I'd ask you lot.

[Chatto]

If you have money to spare, i'd say go for it. Truth to be told, you are going to get bored of losing quiet fast though... I agree with Weapon X: go for a established deck, and do the brewing on the side. Discussing
Legacy on this forum is one thing, playing Legacy is a different thing all together.

[braids]

Alright, how many top tier mono black decks are there? And which Pox variation would you guys say is the best?

[Bosque]

There are zero top tier mono-black lists, though yes the tier list is a little fuzzy in legacy. The mono black decks that do exist are Pox, the Gate, annnnd Braids Stax if you're even more spicy.

[Weapon X]

You can probably get people with suicide black. Disruption and efficient creatures is a proven strategy, it just happens to be death and taxes right now.

[TheManWithaPlan]

Alright, how many top tier mono black decks are there? And which Pox variation would you guys say is the best?

In all honesty I strongly believe that Loam Pox is the best version of a Pox deck. I knew a guy who played a version of the deck that slashed all of the crappy 1 mana discard spells and Innocent Bloods and all this cute stuff that a mono-black Pox deck would run. He did this to enable himself to play Chalice of the Void and saw a lot of success in the local area playing this Chalice Loam Pox. The deck is quite slow, so I would recommend getting in plenty of reps with it if you actually want to play it.

This was a list that he top 8'ed a local event with back in July of 2016. Do keep in mind this is before Fatal Push and Leovold.

1 Nether Spirit

4 Smallpox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Mox Diamond
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
2 Life from the Loam
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Sinkhole
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Dark Ritual
1 Dismember

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
2 Cabal Pit
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Hissing Quagmire
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Plague
1 Dismember
1 Nether Void
1 Sphere of Resistence
1 Golgari Charm
1 Bitterblossom
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Choke

[Qweerios]

I started legacy brewing decks 10-15 years ago. Back then it was not nearly as expensive as now but still too expensive for a kid. Here is some advice I can give you for successful brewing in legacy:

-Black has a great core card pool for midrange decks that cost very little. (Hymn, Duress, Inuisition, Push, Tombstalker, Dark Ritual, Painful Truths, Toxic Deluge, etc.)
-Red is always the cheapest color to play. (Bolt, Red Blasts, Lavamancer, Young Pyro, Red Duals, even Welder...)
-White is also cheap but mostly has good SB options (Plowshares, Lingering Souls, Thalia, Mom)
-You have to get at least 2 playsets of fetchlands for most of your brews
-4 Wasteland is probably your best first upgrade into Legacy staples after grabing a pair of cheap duals (Scrubland or Badland)
-BR Reanimator, Manaless Dredge and Burn are probably the strongest decks for their cost but their card pool won't translate to any other deck so there is little value for a brewer.
-Sinkhole is always garbage, buy fetches instead.
-Deathrites are insane even without green mana to activate them.

If I were to start Legacy today and wanted room to brew, I would pick up a playset of Goblin Welders, Daretti Iconoclast, Entombs, Cabal Therapy, a couple Sundering Titans and I would get to work on a Vault, Furnace, Blackcleave Cliffs manabase to play around with Perilous Myr, Scrapheap Scrounger, Filigree Familiar, Treasure Keeper

[braids]

Hey, I appreciate the replies.
I'm curious to what's wrong with the mono black brew I posted?
It seems like hand disruption and land denial is effective in legacy, or not?

@TheManWithaPlan, so what are you saying? Should Fatal Push be sideboarded or mainboarded in that list now?

[braids]

I started legacy brewing decks 10-15 years ago. Back then it was not nearly as expensive as now but still too expensive for a kid. Here is some advice I can give you for successful brewing in legacy:

-Black has a great core card pool for midrange decks that cost very little. (Hymn, Duress, Inuisition, Push, Tombstalker, Dark Ritual, Painful Truths, Toxic Deluge, etc.)
-Red is always the cheapest color to play. (Bolt, Red Blasts, Lavamancer, Young Pyro, Red Duals, even Welder...)
-White is also cheap but mostly has good SB options (Plowshares, Lingering Souls, Thalia, Mom)
-You have to get at least 2 playsets of fetchlands for most of your brews
-4 Wasteland is probably your best first upgrade into Legacy staples after grabing a pair of cheap duals (Scrubland or Badland)
-BR Reanimator, Manaless Dredge and Burn are probably the strongest decks for their cost but their card pool won't translate to any other deck so there is little value for a brewer.
-Sinkhole is always garbage, buy fetches instead.
-Deathrites are insane even without green mana to activate them.

If I were to start Legacy today and wanted room to brew, I would pick up a playset of Goblin Welders, Daretti Iconoclast, Entombs, Cabal Therapy, a couple Sundering Titans and I would get to work on a Vault, Furnace, Blackcleave Cliffs manabase to play around with Perilous Myr, Scrapheap Scrounger, Filigree Familiar, Treasure Keeper

Hehe, I own most of these cards. I've played magic for a very long time. Just never legacy, mostly EDH and standard up until about 2013 when it started to get boring. I have multiple copies of the dual lands/fetches and just about 1 copy of every card you mentioned. Wastelands, check, I've got a playset.

[Zirath]

Hey, I appreciate the replies.
I'm curious to what's wrong with the mono black brew I posted?
It seems like hand disruption and land denial is effective in legacy, or not?

@TheManWithaPlan, so what are you saying? Should Fatal Push be sideboarded or mainboarded in that list now?

Think about it this way. Why is your deck better than the Gate, a deck that has effectively died.

You have to be able to answer a number of cards in Legacy. Here are some examples:

Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Tarmogoyf
Delver of Secrets
Past in Flames
Wasteland

In particular, the Gate has enormous trouble answering Jace, let alone Terminus or Stoneforge Mystic. Seeing how Miracles is the most common deck still, it makes a mono black list very unreliable if it does not have Mishra's Factory. This is why Shardless and Team America have risen so much in popularity since they take the conceptual strategy of the Gate and combine it with more effective/reliable cards.

In addition, discussion of a format alone doesn't help you build the intuition to make good decisions. You need to play, likely every deck, a decent amount build that.

[TheManWithaPlan]

@TheManWithaPlan, so what are you saying? Should Fatal Push be sideboarded or mainboarded in that list now?

I am just saying that this deck is a little outdated. I don't think Fatal Push should be in the deck anyway however.

[EJexpresss]

Hey, I appreciate the replies.
I'm curious to what's wrong with the mono black brew I posted?
It seems like hand disruption and land denial is effective in legacy, or not?

First off, welcome to the format! Legacy is great, but can be very punishing when you're starting out (hence all the suggestions to start playing with a known and reliable deck). It's best when starting to focus on learning how to play each matchup and master the tricky interactions -- if you're constantly making big changes to your decklist and on top of that your deck concept has fatal flaws, it can get real frustrating, real quick. For all of your concepts, the "ceiling" of your proposed decks is quite low -- combos less efficient than Storm or Show&Tell but with more interaction points get wrecked against all the (really good) hate people already bring for combo. So I think those concepts are dead-ends (competitively speaking, they look fun for kitchen table).

For your mono-black list, you're straddling two archetypes, both of which are on the low-power end of "can be okay for small events". In non-blue decks, having a diluted strategy weakens your deck b/c you don't have blue filtering to draw the "correct half" of your deck (this is why Sensei's Divining Top is almost an auto-include). You need to draw discard and Smallpox/LD early, then threats late to have a chance of staying in the game. If you draw either half in the wrong order (threat-heavy early hands or threat-light topdecks), you'll get run over.

Most legacy decks operate extremely well off of 1 or 2 mana, so dedicated land denial is actually not good (except Wasteland ofc). Smallpox is much worse for you than your opponent, since your threats cost 3+ mana and theirs cost 1 or 2. If you want to play Smallpox, you have to break the symmetry, which means you want all your threats to be resistant to it (like the Pox list above with Mishra's Factory+Nether Spirit). Hand disruption is okay, but not great, especially if you're not playing the strongest suite (Hymn to Tourach + Thoughtseize). Other decks can play off the top of their deck way more effectively than you, due to card manipulation, higher card quality, or lower curve.

A good starting point when brewing is to have solid game plans against 1) Delver decks; 2) Combo decks; and 3) Control decks (specifically Miracles). If you don't have solid plans against at least 2 of these 3, back to the drawing board.

Currently, vs (1) your deck will often just die to a t1 Delver of Secrets backed up by Daze/Wasteland since you only have 7 ways of killing it and they all cost 2 or 3 mana. This seems highly unfavorable to you as they are just too fast and can play better off low resources than you can.
vs. (2) you only have 8 discard spells for interaction, which both can miss what you need to take. Plus they'll have time plenty of time to rebuild, b/c your clock is slow. these matchups are even worse, borderline unwinnable I would say.
vs. (3) you have no card filtering or draw outside of Confidant and have a much less powerful lategame. you have a legit plan here of discard into BB or Bob, but if they can remove or race that, the rest of your threats basically do nothing.

Another good brewing exercise is pairing up your plays on each point of the mana curve compared to the best plays out of other decks.
T1: Deathrite Shaman, Delver of Secrets, Top, Mother of Runes, Chalice of the Void, cantrip (them) vs. conditional discard spell (you)
T2: Stoneforge Mystic, Tarmogoyf, Young Pyromancer, Hymn, Baleful Strix (them) vs. Dark Confidant, Bitterblossom, Smallpox, Sinkhole (you)
T3: True-Name Nemesis, Leovold, Shardless Agent, KotR, Liliana of the Veil, combo-kill-you (them) vs. Vampire Nighthawk, Gatekeeper of Malakir (you)

In all cases, you're doing way less powerful things (and if the argument is "but Dark Ritual!" remember that other DR decks can put Griselbrand in play or outright kill you on T1 and still consistently lose to these decks, while you're often just playing Vampire Nighthawk).

So I'd second the recommendation to check out the Gate thread if you want some more refined ideas on the grindy mono-B midrange. Right now, I think you need extremely compelling reasons to not play Deathrite, Top, Liliana of the Veil, and Fatal Push as a starting point. And frankly, if duals aren't a restriction, you lose almost nothing by not playing at least one other color. There's definitely room to brew -- our last local event was won by a player on mono-black control using the rack as his win con -- but you really have to understand the restrictions the format places on you in order to do so.

[braids]

Thanks for such a nice write up!
I think I'll just heed the advises and take up an established deck. Storm still does well these days or? I'm familiar with the archetype so I believe it would be a good place to start. From the looks of it, the only real expense of the deck is LED and the land base. Infernal Tutor is 8$ where I live, why the hell is it so much in the US?

[Weapon X]

Because star city games has close to a monopoly on dictating price.
At least that is my take on it.

[braids]

well damn, someone needs to come up with a site like magiccardmarket.eu or perhaps even a site like ebay but specifically for tcgs..

[pinkfrosting]

Because star city games has close to a monopoly on dictating price.
At least that is my take on it.

This is really not true at all. Starcity occasionally will buy out cards but TCGplayer, which represents an aggregate of hundreds of smaller sellers, as well as ebay, has stock of almost all relevant cards. Their lowest price point on any given card is generally representative of the agreed value with no monopolizing. Most of the time the price is pretty consistent among multiple sellers and reflects the supply and demand for the individual card.

[ntropy]

To be fair, if you have access to a small, frequent tournament (weekly, probably) and the right temperament, brewing up wacky stuff in Legacy can be immensely rewarding. There's a guy at my local weekly who brews all sorts of nonsense. I've seen him beat Miracles with Biovisionary, and he has a sweet Mono White Legends brew that uses Banding just to mess with people. You need to be patient with your opponent, who doesn't understand you or your deck, and you need to be willing to lose with a smile again and again, but it can be fun for the right person. At a store I used to play at, the meta was super soft, and going every week and winning with Super-Gro was boring, so I played a different deck each week for a year, including bizarre brews and old extended decks.

However, if you want to go to larger events or play competitively, I'd follow the advice that's been given already. I play mono-black Pox, I would recommend it over The Gate, Loam Pox is also viable, and Punishing Abzan/4-color Loam is in there as well. All of these are playable, but you never see them putting up results. If you really like Hymn to Tourach, play Shardless. Storm is fine, it's a lot of work to get good with it, but it does very powerful things.

Mostly just have fun!