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Thread: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

  1. #1

    [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List


  2. #2

    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    It was great to see a reminder of how laissez-faire Legacy's banlist has been. That's an invigorating list imo, it makes me feel great about the format. If someone wants to play Zoo and doesn't want to deal with people playing Brainstorm then I don't understand why they would want to play Legacy.

    And a Deathrite Shaman ban would be totally out-of-the-blue. I think that's kind of a bizarre idea and ALL B&R update should be only ONE card unless there is a serious emergency. I understand the author thinks that if Top is banned then BUG or 4-color Delver would become the most-played deck but removing Miracles would radically shake up the whole format and it's presumptuous to predict what the outcome would look like. If wotc bans a Miracles card, I hope they at least have the foresight to wait and let that settle before meddling further with the format. Deathrite Shaman is powerful of course but let's give him a chance before the banhammer.

    Finally, the article undermines itself by relying on the author's estimate that Miracles was less than 10% of the field in the EE. The data is probably really hard to get but he would've been much more convincing if he actually had the data and presented some matchup percentages.

  3. #3

    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    I couldn't care less for Zoo, I was just making the point a true "aggro" option could be interesting for the format.

    Maybe I should have made this more clear, but my personal opinion is we don't need any bans, just new printings and more communication from WotC.

    I also totally agree, the lack of bans is totally amazing. This has been a self-regulating format with a couple blips, and they've done an excellent job fixing those blips.

  4. #4

    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    I think if you want to shake up the format, unbans are a better way to do it than bans. No one likes seeing their deck get banned and the more strategies that are viable the better it is for the format. I think if they unbanned the obvious stuff like Earthcraft and Mind Twist, and other stuff like Survival of the Fittest, Frantic Search, Goblin Recruiter etc. it'd be better for the format, you might say well isn't that risky, but the answer to that is that you don't know whats gonna happen if miracles is banned. There will always be a best deck, and banning miracles is just going to put something else on top, and soon people will be clamoring for said something else to get banned. But if you really want to ban miracles, which by the way is only %17 of the meta even less in my local meta, i think you should ban Terminus as not to completely kill the deck which is what banning counterbalance or sensei's divining top would do, and Supreme Verdict is a very viable option in legacy.

  5. #5

    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    I think if you want to shake up the format, unbans are a better way to do it than bans. No one likes seeing their deck get banned and the more strategies that are viable the better it is for the format. I think if they unbanned the obvious stuff like Earthcraft and Mind Twist, and other stuff like Survival of the Fittest, Frantic Search, Goblin Recruiter etc. it'd be better for the format, you might say well isn't that risky, but the answer to that is that you don't know whats gonna happen if miracles is banned. There will always be a best deck, and banning miracles is just going to put something else on top, and soon people will be clamoring for said something else to get banned. But if you really want to ban miracles, which by the way is only %17 of the meta even less in my local meta, i think you should ban Terminus as not to completely kill the deck which is what banning counterbalance or sensei's divining top would do, and Supreme Verdict is a very viable option in legacy.
    "Only" 17%?

  6. #6

    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    ya what'd you think 50%? i mean i honestly wouldn't be surprised considering how people on this website are talking. http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE

    Capitalization is required when posting here. Please use it. Thanks. -zilla

  7. #7

    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    Quote Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
    I couldn't care less for Zoo, I was just making the point a true "aggro" option could be interesting for the format.

    Maybe I should have made this more clear, but my personal opinion is we don't need any bans, just new printings and more communication from WotC.

    I also totally agree, the lack of bans is totally amazing. This has been a self-regulating format with a couple blips, and they've done an excellent job fixing those blips.
    Awesome, that makes more sense. I was being defensive when I read "Zoo" and "Ban Brainstorm" but I appreciated your analysis and it's just a hypothetical situation. I'd stop playing the format if Brainstorm was banned though so I really hope it never happens.

    New printings are the way to go and instead of trying to bring down blue maybe wotc can find a way to provide other colors some more relevant ways to interact with the stack. The "blue vs combo vs mana disruption" dynamic is pretty strong in eternal formats and while new hatebears or prison effects keep decks like Death and Taxes and Eldrazi alive they perpetuate this dynamic. Personally I'd love to see white and red have more interactions on the stack (Beyond REB) instead of relying on prison or mana disruption. It's a tall order but if wotc could pull it off it's the best case scenario.

    edit: +1 to LegacyIsAnEternalFormat pointing to the 17% of top 8's. It's high but the game has seen more dominant decks than that.

  8. #8

    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderwaterGuy View Post
    Awesome, that makes more sense. I was being defensive when I read "Zoo" and "Ban Brainstorm" but I appreciated your analysis and it's just a hypothetical situation. I'd stop playing the format if Brainstorm was banned though so I really hope it never happens.

    New printings are the way to go and instead of trying to bring down blue maybe wotc can find a way to provide other colors some more relevant ways to interact with the stack. The "blue vs combo vs mana disruption" dynamic is pretty strong in eternal formats and while new hatebears or prison effects keep decks like Death and Taxes and Eldrazi alive they perpetuate this dynamic. Personally I'd love to see white and red have more interactions on the stack instead of relying on prison or mana disruption. It's a tall order but if wotc could pull it off it's the best case scenario.
    wotc needs to focus on fixing standard before it can focus on trying to lower miracle prevalance in the legacy metagame. And really do you really think that they care enough about legacy to print anything for it, i mean these are the idiots who are keeping MindTwist and EarthCraft on the banlist.

  9. #9

    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    wotc needs to focus on fixing standard before it can focus on trying to lower miracle prevalance in the legacy metagame. And really do you really think that they care enough about legacy to print anything for it, i mean these are the idiots who are keeping MindTwist and EarthCraft on the banlist.
    I don't think they're paying much attention at all and I like it that way. If they did get their act together and prove an ability to make a balanced Standard then I'd be optimistic.

    It's been my pet idea for a long time but I think if Misdirection (which isn't even played anyway) was color shifted to red it would be better for the game.

  10. #10

    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    I wonder if/how the numbers would change, if you separate the data from Europe, America, Asia+Australia (and MODO). I feel like the European meta is more diverse and hateful towards Miracles than the US meta, but I might be wrong.

    MODO is a whole different story...

  11. #11

    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    Main takeaway: Kevin Adams is a passive aggressive twat.

    Seriously though, good article. I don't think I had ever seen that naming legacy poll before since I'm relatively new to the format compared to a lot of people here probably. Boy there are some awful choices there.
    From nothing came teeth.

    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    I really don't know why you're complaining about top being banned since you seem to be very good at Soothsaying.

  12. #12
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    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    Thanks for including a historical perspective on Legacy's ban list. My two cents:

    Banning Terminus would be a great way to end the dominance of Miracles (if it really is a problem) without ANY collateral damage.

  13. #13

    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderlust View Post
    Thanks for including a historical perspective on Legacy's ban list. My two cents:

    Banning Terminus would be a great way to end the dominance of Miracles (if it really is a problem) without ANY collateral damage.
    Yes! Banning Terminus would be optimal IMO. It opens up for other control and CB/Top decks, and makes actual creature decks playable again.

  14. #14

    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigar View Post
    Yes! Banning Terminus would be optimal IMO. It opens up for other control and CB/Top decks, and makes actual creature decks playable again.
    Creature decks ARE playable - Elves, DnT etc. You just can't flood the board with creatures and win. You have to play around Terminus, those who do - succeed, and those who don't seldom understand why they lost and blame the power of Terminus.

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    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    Quote Originally Posted by kentheide View Post
    Creature decks ARE playable - Elves, DnT etc. You just can't flood the board with creatures and win. You have to play around Terminus, those who do - succeed, and those who don't seldom understand why they lost and blame the power of Terminus.
    It still reduces the variety of potential creature decks alot - you either have counters for Terminus, Cavern (+ haste creatures) and/or Vial against CB to keep aggression up or you're Julian Knab playing Elves.

    The grand plan to not overextend into Terminus backfires in the exact moment they fire off a hail of Stp/Snapcasters, aka their back-up removal plan.

    Creatures have never power-creeped to the point where 1-mana instant speed Super Wraths are necessary for the health of the format.

  16. #16

    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    Legacy should always be focused on unbans rather than bans. So many exciting cards that can potentially shakeup the format.

    1) Survival
    2) Mind Twist
    3) Goblin Recruiter

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    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderlust View Post
    Thanks for including a historical perspective on Legacy's ban list. My two cents:

    Banning Terminus would be a great way to end the dominance of Miracles (if it really is a problem) without ANY collateral damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigar View Post
    Yes! Banning Terminus would be optimal IMO. It opens up for other control and CB/Top decks, and makes actual creature decks playable again.
    Seconded! Keeps the CounterTop package intact while taking away the quick get-out-of-jail-free card. StP + Snapcaster paired with Jace & Vendilion Clique is still plenty of removal (which currently deals quite well with those that do not overextend into Terminus, I might add).
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  18. #18

    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Seconded! Keeps the CounterTop package intact while taking away the quick get-out-of-jail-free card. StP + Snapcaster paired with Jace & Vendilion Clique is still plenty of removal (which currently deals quite well with those that do not overextend into Terminus, I might add).
    And there's still Supreme Verdict as a (much worse) alternative for Terminus.

  19. #19
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    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Seconded! Keeps the CounterTop package intact while taking away the quick get-out-of-jail-free card. StP + Snapcaster paired with Jace & Vendilion Clique is still plenty of removal (which currently deals quite well with those that do not overextend into Terminus, I might add).
    Yeah, I mean, that makes sense, but banning Counterbalance hits no other decks and removes part of the impetus that drives people to default to BG/X: the need for Abrupt Decay to not get locked out of the game.

    I honestly don't find Terminus to be that much of a problem itself as it's just a hyper efficient Wrath, the problem is keeping Counterbalance off the board and still avoiding losing to Mentor or Entreat, while you can't really pressure effectively because of Terminus.

    Without Counterblance there are a whole host of ways to fight Top, fight Terminus, fight Mentor and so on. With Counterbalace though, you need to have Decay or face the option of getting locked out of the game and being cut off all those options.

    So, to come full circle to what akatsuki said in the article, I don't think Deathrite is overpowered, the issue is that Decay has become nearly a "must play" and if you are in GB/X DRS is an obvious include. So, my thinking is, Ban Counterbalance, make Miracles decks into the Board-Control deck it should be, not the Board-Control and Prison deck it is now and you'll see less Deathrites, since people won't feel forced into GB/X by the threat of a lockout.

    I guess the fear would be that this would make GB/X decks "too good" but in reality, decks held back by having no real answers to Counterbalance would more than take up the share of good matchups versus GB/X, like Death and Taxes or even Grixis.

    Just my two cents as a nobody.
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    Re: [Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

    Copy paste from a comment i made on the article:

    "Brainstorm in my view needs to be banned. Let's be Real, if you want to win in Legacy you start your decklist with 4 brainstorm. Non blue strategies exist but they are not nearly as competitive. I know this Will never happen, because there is the Crazy accepted notion that Legacy has to be the "blue" format and many players are too attached to their blue cards, but dear god just Imagine how many strategies would become viable with a brainstorm ban just because all the busted cards get nerfed : delver gets significantly worse, miracles are clunky cards in your hand, you Can no longer build your deck assuming that you Can play any kind of overpowered but situational card just because when said card is Dead you Will be able to shuffle it away, discard spells become playable again. It would just be an Amazing new Legacy era that sadly we Will never see.

    Now, if you want to just Nerf miracles, i think it is better to ban counterbalance or terminus. I know top is time consuming, but i also know it's One of the very few non blue tools to get card selection and consistency, that some decks like nic fit and Imperial painter play. It would be a shame to harm Fringe, non blue strategies just to kill miracles, while banning terminus or counterbalance doesn't hurt any other deck. "


    In the end, i like legacy even with brainstorm legal, but it would really be much, much better without it. Of course there will always be people like underwaterguy who come up with fantastic arguments like "i'd stop playing the format if brainstorm was banned so i hope it never happens" or "if people want to play zoo and don't care about people casting brainstorm then i don't really understand why they would want to play legacy". Awesome stuff.

    In the meantime, can we please unban goblin recruiter ?

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