[Article] Managing the Legacy B/R List

[Crimhead]

Not a bad article, but the banning suggestions seem terribly narrow. Assuming for the sake of argument that Miracles is a problem, there are more ways to hit it than BS or a shake-up. Obviously Terminus, SDT, and CB are all potential targets if Miracles needs a ban. I'm not interested in rehashing the pros and cons of these bans, but I do think it was lazy (and/or dishonest) that none of these were even suggested.

I also agree (again, assuming we agree there is a problem) that there are unbans that might give the meta a healthy shake. I would certainly advocate at least trying that before taking any more severe measures. Realistically there are cards that don't belong there to begin with...

[iatee]

All of the potential unbans are terribly designed Magic cards. The format is not gonna get better because someone gets wrecked by a Mind Twist once in a while, or because you can now lose to a new fast combo via Earthcraft or Survival, or watch your opponent stack his Goblins deck for 10 minutes. These cards are only fun in your head. They don't make for interesting or interactive games.

There is some weird bizarro libertarian impulse w/ some eternal players, as if freedom for these old cards is more important than having a format that's actually balanced and competitive. I think this streak is worse in Vintage, where you had people willing to go to war for the right to have their opponent t1 Lodestone Golem them.

[Mr Miagi]

I don't know. On one side, I rather liked the article, it was a nice read. But the more I'm looking deeply into what was written the more I feel (<-subjective) that author didn't dare (or want?) to really advocate the banning of true offender of Legacy which is Brainstorm. I mean I know he touched on it in point three and I agree with this, but what bothers me the most is his conclusion, when he is saying

I still stand by my previous conclusion, that I would prefer to see more cards printed that give other colors consistency, or that pressure Brainstorm (e.g., Thalia, Leovold, Green Sun's Zenith, Recruiter of the Guard) than see Brainstorm banned.

again I think we all agree that we would all welcome more cards to enter legacy card pool and bring some color (non-brainstorm?) balance to the format. but I have a problem with above quote. It's hard to theorize but it would take Wizards extreme effort to print cards that would bring nonbrainstorm decks to the level of brainstorm decks. Nonbrainstorm decks would still have edge in consistency in the tournament with several (high number of) rounds. It's easy to fix your hand with just U - Brainstorm, while it would take immense design effort and spread over multiple cards to at least try to get on the level of what Brainstorm does to blue decks.

[CptHaddock]

All of the potential unbans are terribly designed Magic cards. The format is not gonna get better because someone gets wrecked by a Mind Twist once in a while, or because you can now lose to a new fast combo via Earthcraft or Survival, or watch your opponent stack his Goblins deck for 10 minutes. These cards are only fun in your head. They don't make for interesting or interactive games.

There is some weird bizarro libertarian impulse w/ some eternal players, as if freedom for these old cards is more important than having a format that's actually balanced and competitive. I think this streak is worse in Vintage, where you had people willing to go to war for the right to have their opponent t1 Lodestone Golem them.

Haha my bad I forgot about balance while getting any of the following: turn 1 griselbrand, turn 1 sire, turn 1 emrakul, turn 1 tendrils for 10, turn 1 charbelcher, turn 1 chalice of the void, turn 1 blood moon.

[Claymore]

It's hard to theorize but it would take Wizards extreme effort to print cards that would bring nonbrainstorm decks to the level of brainstorm decks.

Of course, once a card was discovered and popularized to help combat Brainstorm - Chalice of the Void - blue players began foaming at the mouth to have it banned.

[iatee]

Haha my bad I forgot about balance while getting any of the following: turn 1 griselbrand, turn 1 sire, turn 1 emrakul, turn 1 tendrils for 10, turn 1 charbelcher, turn 1 chalice of the void, turn 1 blood moon.

Well, if you made me king, I would be for banning all of the following:
Griselbrand
LED
Chalice
Show and Tell

[Spam]

Yep, every constructive discussion usually ends with two sides bashing at each other. Anyway, I think it's quite clear that Wizard is trying to push card in legacy more than ever, with some clear results. It's also clear how "Conspiracy" is the hand that brings us those cards rather tha standard's legal sets.

[UnderwaterGuy]

@ Dice Box
Why delete our posts but leave Mr Miagi's up ?

edit: undersood, thanks

[Dice_Box]

Because I missed it.

[Richard Cheese]

I say take a flamethrower to the whole format. I'd ban dozens of new-bordered cards before Brainstorm; Griselbrand, Terminus, Delver, Thalia, Deathrite, Jace, probably a ton more could get the axe. Then again, I'd also be fine with losing Brainstorm. Change for the sake of change.

[cheerios]

Or maybe they can print new cards to push cloudpost decks some more to mess with miracles. I dont really want to see bans in the format.

[Chatto]

Or maybe they can print new cards to push cloudpost decks some more to mess with miracles. I dont really want to see bans in the format.

Let them make some viable Goblins as well, please

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

All of the potential unbans are terribly designed Magic cards. The format is not gonna get better because someone gets wrecked by a Mind Twist once in a while, or because you can now lose to a new fast combo via Earthcraft or Survival, or watch your opponent stack his Goblins deck for 10 minutes. These cards are only fun in your head. They don't make for interesting or interactive games.

There is some weird bizarro libertarian impulse w/ some eternal players, as if freedom for these old cards is more important than having a format that's actually balanced and competitive. I think this streak is worse in Vintage, where you had people willing to go to war for the right to have their opponent t1 Lodestone Golem them.

No, just because you think the cards are unfun doesnt mean that they should ban them, i think Death and Taxes is unfun to play against how would you like it if they banned that? Also unbanning cards causes a changeup in the metagame that people seem to want right now. Bottom line is that banned list is for overpowered cards not for cards that you think are unfun.

[ironclad8690]

I would love something to make RG fair a thing again. Perhaps a creature that has a prohibitive mana cost like RRG or RG or something that domes the opponent every time they use an activated ability (Burning-Tree Shaman on crack/current power creep adjusted). Also has to have a good Power/Toughness.

I think this could make aggressive non-delver decks a thing again. Overall, I just miss decks that used creatures to grind like RGSA. The closest we have to that now is Shardless BUG.

I think they are on the right track, printing things that give other decks a boost, rather than outright banning something.

[maharis]

Yeah, I mean, that makes sense, but banning Counterbalance hits no other decks and removes part of the impetus that drives people to default to BG/X: the need for Abrupt Decay to not get locked out of the game.

I honestly don't find Terminus to be that much of a problem itself as it's just a hyper efficient Wrath, the problem is keeping Counterbalance off the board and still avoiding losing to Mentor or Entreat, while you can't really pressure effectively because of Terminus.

Without Counterblance there are a whole host of ways to fight Top, fight Terminus, fight Mentor and so on. With Counterbalace though, you need to have Decay or face the option of getting locked out of the game and being cut off all those options.

So, to come full circle to what akatsuki said in the article, I don't think Deathrite is overpowered, the issue is that Decay has become nearly a "must play" and if you are in GB/X DRS is an obvious include. So, my thinking is, Ban Counterbalance, make Miracles decks into the Board-Control deck it should be, not the Board-Control and Prison deck it is now and you'll see less Deathrites, since people won't feel forced into GB/X by the threat of a lockout.

I guess the fear would be that this would make GB/X decks "too good" but in reality, decks held back by having no real answers to Counterbalance would more than take up the share of good matchups versus GB/X, like Death and Taxes or even Grixis.

Just my two cents as a nobody.

I agree with all this, especially since the last time I played was when I finally relented to start tinkering with BUG again and promptly got ranched by Grixis. I would play Grixis myself if I didn't want to eat it to Counterbalance all the time.

Terminus would be fine to ban but I think its power is overstated. It's not like it comes down earlier than Wrath/Verdict would that often, it just keeps mana open. The instant speed Terminus is barely a surprise anymore so I don't think that's a good argument against it. But one of the best things you can do after a Terminus with the extra mana you didn't use on your wrath is play CB and prevent the opponent from rebuilding again.

I understand that DRS is a good card but I have a hard time thinking of a deck that is so severely held down by it that it would come back if only DRS were banned. Thresh I guess is the big one but they would still have to deal with Counterbalance, SFM-> Skull, TNN, D&T, etc. Meanwhile you'd lose a lot of the fringy BGx decks people like playing like Food Chain, Aluren, Jund.

While I don't think Brainstorm is going anywhere, any ban is always going to be a sacrifice at its altar. If you take out Top and DRS, the best thing to do becomes Brainstorm and fetches even more than it already is, and you still get to pair it up with free counters, SFM, TNN, Mentor, and oops I win spells. Banning any creature that does nothing when it ETBs and eats it to Bolt, STP and now Push is insanity to me. That includes Delver. How are we complaining about these cards in formats where S&T/Past in Flames/Natural Order are legal?

[Claymore]

I agree that banning DRS seems ridiculous. It does provide a ton of main board utility against graveyard decks (Reanimator especially), so maybe the overall flexibility is a concern, but not ban worthy.

I'd love to see a counterbalance ban and definitely see how it warps the format, but killing a wide range of control decks seems bad.

My problem with Terminus is it allows the deck to still operate along its normal plan (expend as much mana as it needs to on its turn), but still completely able to just wipe out anything you do for W, at instant speed. Then if it doesn't need to, the deck still has the flexiblity to cantrip for more business. Instant speed board wipes shouldn't be that cheap. Compare to Bonfire of the Damned even.

I could see Terminus fine at a miracle cost of 3 or 4 mana. I have no idea what they were thinking at 1 mana.

[Michael Keller]

Since we're all sharing our opinions on the matter, I figured I'd share mine:

I'm not afraid to play Miracles, and it's an absolutely beatable deck. However, I think Terminus is the card that needs to go. This isn't necessarily like Survival of the Fittest where you have a permanent-based tutor; even the worst player can luck-sack their way into a one-mana Wrath, and in the hands of a competent opponent it becomes even more annoying. Was Vengevine a problem with Survival? Sure. But this is different: there are a plethora of ways to manipulate the top of the deck (including Brainstorm), and this card just swings the game incredibly. Even knowing you have to play around it is annoying. Top and Counterbalance existed in the format long before it was ever a thing. Anyone remember Gerry-T using Firespout to clear the board? Or Supreme Verdict being the ace in the hole? Once that card was printed and it found its way into the deck, it became so annoying for aggro players that not even a dominating early board-state was a safe bet.

That's what's happening now. Counterbalance is beatable with Decay and Cavern - which are ubiquitous - and Top is Top without Terminus: a filtering machine that requires a turn-in, turn-out mana investment. You don't have to tip-toe or tread water around a one-mana Wrath if that card were to go. I'm not saying going "all-in" is a good thing and dumping your hand knowing that Supreme Verdict or Firespout could be slammed, but it's light years better than the realism of knowing that an attempt to create board dominance can be obliterated for W.

So in short, Terminus playing the role of Vengevine and Top playing the role of Survival can be seen as somewhat congruent in nature, in that both share qualities - albeit innocuous - about their counterparts. However, the weight of the problem centers around Terminus swinging the game for W instantaneously, since a card like Brainstorm exists and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

[NeckBird]

Banning a card in Legacy has far greater consequences than a format like Modern or Standard simply due to how expensive Legacy decks are in comparison. Cards like Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were colossal errors that set Legacy back pretty far, not just because they had to be banned, but because people bought into decks that cost $2k that they considered useless afterwards. I know multiple people that bought into Omni-Tell or UR Delver or what have you and after the bannings sold their deck and went exclusively into Modern.

It would be better if they changed the Miracle cost on Terminus to 1W and made Deathrite Shaman an 0/1 before they banned a card currently legal in the format.

[Dice_Box]

They just took two cards out of a 18,000 dollar Vintage deck. I don't feel like Wizards gives a shit about deck price.

[NeckBird]

They just took two cards out of a 18,000 dollar Vintage deck. I don't feel like Wizards gives a shit about deck price.

If this were true, Workshop and Bazaar would've been restricted a long time ago.