Basics are definitely viable and not-too-greedy in non-wasteland, non-hymn lists. The color requirements here are not as severe as in Shardless: you don't need the 3rd(/4th) colors as early or often and the double-colored requirements typically hit later as well.
The main reason to play basics in this sort of list is not to play imperviously to wasteland and/or blood moon. You can struggle to keep green/red up, and if you fetch up your basics against a wasteland deck when short on mana, you may get punished and stuck on lands that can't cast what you need.
The main reason to play them is that you can put yourself in a position where wasteland does nothing on their first couple of turns, so that they're spending cards and land drops to address your 3rd-ish land, you still have 2-3 mana up each turn, and daze is bad. Getting on board and addressing their early threats without exposure to wasteland is good.
(More relevant to Shardless on this point, but Swamp, DRS, Shardless/Lily through wasteland is a very strong opening. This deck is far less interested in making a T2 3-Drop, so it's less relevant.)
Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac
Hoping to get some games in the next week or so with this:
Czech Pile
Creatures: 14
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman
Planeswalkers: 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells: 24
1 Painful Truths
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Kolaghan’s Command
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
Lands: 20
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
Sideboard: 15
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Marsh Casualties
3 Thoughseize
I'd like to discuss some of the flex slots
Removal
I'm back and forth between 3/2/2/1 Decay/Push/Bolt/Command and 3/1/1/2/1 Decay/Push/Dismember/Bolt./Command. Dismember kills Thought-Knot Seer unconditionally and kills Reality Smasher, Tombstalker, and Angler, which Push doesn't do, but we're already fine against Eldrazi and Strixes can generally pick off a fatty or two, but relying on them exposes us to some additional variance from opposing removal. Zero Bolts makes it harder to answer Planeswalkers and makes mana denial slightly more effective against us. Command is sometimes clunky, but it's one of the deck's best grinding tools.
Disruption
I think this largely depends on your threat package. The more you want to be the aggressor, the better Hymn and Inquisition become, but both lose value pretty quickly as you try to be more controlling. Even in the most controlling builds, I like a Thoughtseize/Snare mix and some number of Counterspells (I'm currently on 3/1/2) alongside a playset of Forces.
Dedicated Win Conditions
This isn't a great name since a Leovold and Vendilion Clique have uses beyond simply winning the game, but lack of a clock is the place where this deck is leaving the most EV on the table. TNN, Leo, and Clique all have their benefits, but Trained Armodon isn't much of a clock. I definitely liked Tarmogoyf for its cost and size in the past despite its dying to Fatal Push. Tombstalker could be a more robust replacement, but it's clunkier in matchups like Delver where having a huge body early helps to shut down their offense and end the game before they can answer it.
I'm glad someone is finally bringing all this up. I've found this deck pretty hard to build (but a ton of fun to play).
With the removal suites you mentioned, btm10, I assume you're running all non-basics and playing three red sources, right? How many green sources? I worry about playing too many cards in the splash colors and getting, say, Wasted off of them and having too many cards stuck in hand. Then again, I've been running two basics, so perhaps the all-duals plan better allows for an optimal removal suite. I've been playing 2 Push/1 Bolt/2 Decay/1 K-Command/1 Jitte (I've been on TNNs). This configuration is mostly because I'm trying to be primarilyto make my mana more reliable, but not having the second Bolt against Jace and cards like Mirran Crusader occasionally comes up. And I'd love to find a way to play the third Decay - maybe I move the Jitte to the sideboard and ax a slot there.
Disruption, I've loved Spell Snare. I'm currently on one copy because it's disruption that I can't leave in against Sneak and Show, but it's overperformed. I'm running discard maindeck, too: two Thoughtseize, two Hymns. I feel I can consistently cast Hymn with six black sources (including basic Swamp) and curve out to one of my three TNNs or two Leovolds. But because I'm running Hymn, that means I lose Counterspell, which is probably a mistake in the current metagame. I'm going to GP Vegas, and if I decide to play 4C there, I'd want to tune my list for that metagame, which will inevitably have lots of Miracles. I just worry that DnT is a big part of the paper metagame (especially by me in L.A.), and Counterspell is poor against them. So I'm unsure of which disruption suite I'd play - definitely open to suggestions.
The threats have been hard to figure out, too. In many matchups my TNNs are what win me the game, but they're a huge liability against combo. I've also been on a Tombstalker because there isn't a ton of Miracles locally, but I'm starting to reconsider because it's bad against both Jace and Strix. Tombstalker has won me its fair share of games, though, which is why it's still in my list. But I really miss a 2-drop threat that I can deploy and just forget about. A part of me wonders if a Pyromancer would make sense, even without the Probe/Therapy engine. With all the Snapcaster shenanigans and card advantage drawing into more business spells, I think it might generate enough value to merit consideration as perhaps a one-of. And even if it gets removed early, you're most likely leaving behind at least one Elemental. I'd love to find a way to make these 4C decks a touch more aggressive - not too much, though - but that's probably just a play style thing.
Another card I've been toying with lately is Liliana, the Last Hope. Has anyone tried her? What are your thoughts? It's been a nice way to, say, recover a Pyroblasted TNN or get another Snapcaster trigger. Being answerable by Decay kinda sucks, but ya can't win 'em all. At least it can't get Pyroblasted.
Definitely curious to see what people have experimented with lately.
I'm huge on Liliana, the Last Hope. Being able to pick off Delvers, Elves, and Infect creatures is fantastic, and she gives us another win condition against Miracles. One that can't be interacted with via Terminus. Another card I've been very impressed with is Unearth. It lets us buy back any of our value creatures later in the game. Unearthing a Snap or Strix feels dirty, and running Clique, Leo, or TNN into a FOW just to bring it back next turn for B is gamebreaking.
I played a game vs. Eldrazi where I kept rebuying the same Baleful Strix several times. Unearth, then Snap --> Unearth? So good.
I think that the core pieces of this deck are basically 4 DRS, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder and everything else is up to how you like to play or what you expect the metagame to be like. In general I try to stay away from the 1 offs like Tomas has had in his list on the front page unless they are very powerful on their own. I will say this though, if you aren't play any Kolaghan's Commands though you are probably doing it wrong. That card is extremely well positioned right now.
Thanks! I'm on all nonbasics, but 3Sea/2 Trop/2 Volc/1 Bayou +2 Wastelands since I think Wasteland is a very important tool, and have been trying out a lot of maindeck green cards (Tarmogoyf, Leovold, Sylvan Library, Decay, even Garruk Relentless a few times) and more out of the board (Golgari Charm, sometimes Loam). If I were to cut a fetch for another dual there's a chance it would be a Badlands since there are times it would be nice to fetch Trop, Badlands to have access to all my colors (and Decay) off of 2 lands.I'm glad someone is finally bringing all this up. I've found this deck pretty hard to build (but a ton of fun to play).
With the removal suites you mentioned, btm10, I assume you're running all non-basics and playing three red sources, right? How many green sources? I worry about playing too many cards in the splash colors and getting, say, Wasted off of them and having too many cards stuck in hand. Then again, I've been running two basics, so perhaps the all-duals plan better allows for an optimal removal suite. I've been playing 2 Push/1 Bolt/2 Decay/1 K-Command/1 Jitte (I've been on TNNs). This configuration is mostly because I'm trying to be primarily
Disruption, I've loved Spell Snare. I'm currently on one copy because it's disruption that I can't leave in against Sneak and Show, but it's overperformed. I'm running discard maindeck, too: two Thoughtseize, two Hymns. I feel I can consistently cast Hymn with six black sources (including basic Swamp) and curve out to one of my three TNNs or two Leovolds. But because I'm running Hymn, that means I lose Counterspell, which is probably a mistake in the current metagame. I'm going to GP Vegas, and if I decide to play 4C there, I'd want to tune my list for that metagame, which will inevitably have lots of Miracles. I just worry that DnT is a big part of the paper metagame (especially by me in L.A.), and Counterspell is poor against them. So I'm unsure of which disruption suite I'd play - definitely open to suggestions.
The threats have been hard to figure out, too. In many matchups my TNNs are what win me the game, but they're a huge liability against combo. I've also been on a Tombstalker because there isn't a ton of Miracles locally, but I'm starting to reconsider because it's bad against both Jace and Strix. Tombstalker has won me its fair share of games, though, which is why it's still in my list. But I really miss a 2-drop threat that I can deploy and just forget about. A part of me wonders if a Pyromancer would make sense, even without the Probe/Therapy engine. With all the Snapcaster shenanigans and card advantage drawing into more business spells, I think it might generate enough value to merit consideration as perhaps a one-of. And even if it gets removed early, you're most likely leaving behind at least one Elemental. I'd love to find a way to make these 4C decks a touch more aggressive - not too much, though - but that's probably just a play style thing.
Another card I've been toying with lately is Liliana, the Last Hope. Has anyone tried her? What are your thoughts? It's been a nice way to, say, recover a Pyroblasted TNN or get another Snapcaster trigger. Being answerable by Decay kinda sucks, but ya can't win 'em all. At least it can't get Pyroblasted.
Definitely curious to see what people have experimented with lately.
In testing Liliana, the Last Hope I found that she was great in some matchups (she's almost certainly the best way to manage creatures in the mirror), but too much of what we're already doing a lot of the time, and ultimately cut her because we generate a ton of value already and have cheaper ways to kill creatures.
I'm still kind of flummoxed on win conditions. I mostly care about closing speed against Loam decks and combo, which means that TNN is somewhat unattractive because it's so slow. My other concern is that both TNN and Pyromancer open us up to -1/-1 effects more than we already are, though that vulnerability might be unavoidable.
I haven't played Unearth in this shell, but it's been pretty great in other Snapcaster Mage decks where I've played it. I especially like it alongside TNN since it's a way to put it into play without exposing it to a Blast, which is the primary way some decks have to fight it postboard. My only hesitation is that the deck is pretty graveyard reliant already and I'm not sure if I want to expose it to more hate.
Thanks for the followup, btm10. Lots to unpack here.
If you're playing that many green cards, I'd say it makes sense to play all non-basics. I'm curious how you've found both Leovold and the sideboard Loam. I've been playing two Leos alongside three TNNs to force fair decks and Miracles to constantly have answers to my top-end threats, but I'm starting to think that playing five copies of these is too clunky. And I've always thought Loam was a metagame call. Do you think it's good enough right now? Are you playing the third Wasteland in the sideboard like Mar?
I've actually liked Lili against Miracles, too, even if she doesn't affect the board state. A black planeswalker is something they have only a few answers to. Snapcaster can attack it once and then die, or they need to find EE for 3 (tough to manage) or Council's Judgment. I've gotten her to ultimate, and it's gasoline. That said, maybe Unearth is a more efficient and elegant way to recur threats, especially alongside Snapcaster, though to your point, it may be superfluous.
Regarding win cons, this is the thing I'm stuck on the most. I've seen more fair decks than combo around me, so I've been playing the TNNs and Leos and one Tombstalker. But sometimes I wish I just had an aggressive 2-drop for combo, which leads me back to Goyf but makes my mana a little worse because of the additional green cards in the maindeck. How many of these Goyf/Pyro kinds of threats would you play (and which do you prefer)? I've tried a singleton Goyf alongside the Tombstalker, and I didn't hate it. I don't like how good Rest in Peace becomes against the Goyfs and Snapcasters and stuff, but I can live with that. I'm not that concerned about -1/-1 effects because they're less common than spot removal, but getting everything wiped out by a Goglari Charm would certainly feel bad.
I'd love to find a configuration that can grind well but also occasionally tempo out some people - perhaps a pipe dream. I'm gonna try shaving on some value pieces for more midrange potential.
Have to say, I've been loving this deck. Just saw Rodrigo tweeting about it, saying how adaptable it is to your meta, and I have to agree. I've been having great success with it the last few months, largely I think because of how I've geared it to my local meta. Last few months I'm 20-6 with the deck, and every loss was either to Blood Moon, the card Sneak Attack, or Young Pyromancer. So I found room for three Hydroblast in the sideboard, and viola, last week beat all the problem decks. Awesome toolbox feeling with this deck.
As for threats, I've not had much of a problem finishing once I've established control. An active DRS and an EOT Clique is a decent clock.
"On the other hand, I am still wondering on which basis certain people appoint themselves authorities on a matter; postcount does not equal stormcount."
- CabalTherapy
He's giving away my Chandra tech
What role exactly does Chandra play? Is she there as may an extra win con with value, or does she filll some gap the deck has?
"On the other hand, I am still wondering on which basis certain people appoint themselves authorities on a matter; postcount does not equal stormcount."
- CabalTherapy
She's a bit of both honestly, it's also not very hard to protect her until she can ultimate. My biggest issue against blue decks game 2-3 is that they usually bring in an insane amount of blasts and the majority of your value cards are blue. She can also randomly win games when your opponent slams a turn 1 moon and you have no answers (or basics in your deck).
I'm also a pretty big red mage so I pretty much try to put Chandra in every deck that can play her.
When I've run Garruk Relentless it's been for much the same reason. Being out of Decay range is also great, though I don't love that he's vulnerable to Bolt. I also like Nissa, Voice of Zendikar more than most.
I've tried both the sideboard Wasteland and 3 maindeck and think your mana is better with the 2/1 split. That being said, I really like 0 Wastelands, 3 red duals, and 3 green duals (10-11/9 fetch/dual split) unless you expect a lot of Lands in your meta. I haven't tried Loam yet, though I have tried a Crucible and been fairly happy with it.
Liliana the Last Hope is definitely great against Miracles, just worry about having too much value and not enough closing speed. This deck can sometimes make Miracles look like Zoo when it comes to actually winning a game.I've actually liked Lili against Miracles, too, even if she doesn't affect the board state. A black planeswalker is something they have only a few answers to. Snapcaster can attack it once and then die, or they need to find EE for 3 (tough to manage) or Council's Judgment. I've gotten her to ultimate, and it's gasoline. That said, maybe Unearth is a more efficient and elegant way to recur threats, especially alongside Snapcaster, though to your point, it may be superfluous.
Those are all fair points. I usually run 2 dedicated in conditions, but I've tried lots of different splits. TNN, Goyf, Garruk Relentless, Vendilion Clique, Leovold, and Tombstalker are the ones I've tested. I think TNN and Goyf are the most impressive single creatures when it comes to winning games and balancing closing speed, resilience, and ease of casting. Garruk Relentless is pretty swell too, though he's comparatively slow against a lot of decks. If you're heavier on red (or just light on green) Young Pyromancer might be worth trying (with or without Therapy over Thoughtseize; we probably can't afford to run Probe) because he's a great way to contain opposing Pyromancers. My hangups around -1/-1 effects are likely irrational.Regarding win cons, this is the thing I'm stuck on the most. I've seen more fair decks than combo around me, so I've been playing the TNNs and Leos and one Tombstalker. But sometimes I wish I just had an aggressive 2-drop for combo, which leads me back to Goyf but makes my mana a little worse because of the additional green cards in the maindeck. How many of these Goyf/Pyro kinds of threats would you play (and which do you prefer)? I've tried a singleton Goyf alongside the Tombstalker, and I didn't hate it. I don't like how good Rest in Peace becomes against the Goyfs and Snapcasters and stuff, but I can live with that. I'm not that concerned about -1/-1 effects because they're less common than spot removal, but getting everything wiped out by a Goglari Charm would certainly feel bad.
I'd love to find a configuration that can grind well but also occasionally tempo out some people - perhaps a pipe dream. I'm gonna try shaving on some value pieces for more midrange potential.
So this deck is about to get a much larger metagame share as it might be the best control deck now.
Brought this to the local weekly Sunday Legacy and went 3-1 yesterday. I was still waiting for a Leovold to come in the mail so the list is a little wonky:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Night's Whisper
1 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Swamp
1 Island
10 Fetches
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Painful Truths
1 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fire Covenant
1 Forked Bolt
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Played Miracles (w), BR Reanimator (w), UWr Delver (L), Miracles (w)
Note-able Changes afterwards:
Some changes +1 Invasive Surgery to the board, +1 Leovold main, +1 Badlands -1 Swamp, might cut one fatal push from the main, -1 Painful Truths from the board, Null rod will have to be considered being removed and replaced with something else post-Top banning.
There's now a much larger question of whether you want Red at all now. Hymn is bonkers against this deck; it might want to become more proactive.
I was thinking the same thing. Hymn was the card that immediately came to mind, both in our decks and against them. Combo should increase, as should Elves. Delver probably ticks up a little to combat combo, and Blood Moon probably increases to fight Delver and 4C (seeing as it's probably the best control deck now). DnT is also probably switching its threat base to include more Mirran Crusaders because there will be fewer Swords to Plowshares around and possibly splash red for Magus of the Moon. If I'm wrong in that assessment, please tell me. This is a lot to process, and I've never played Legacy when Miracles wasn't a thing.
If any of what I said is true, though, how do we adjust? I'd imagine shaving some value in favor of proactivity is correct. Better threats, especially some number of 2-drops, seems mandatory. Pyroblast seems less necessary but still good. How good is Leovold in a Miracle-less metagame? Decay is probably still worth it because it's uncounterable removal against Delver and can get stuff like Chalice and Blood Moon and Jitte/Swords. Do we go back to three colors to keep a better mana base and sacrifice either Decay or K-Command/Pyroblast? Help! haha
Is red really the color you want to cut? I feel like if anything green should be lessened. While decay is a good card I feel like you're less inclined to want it so i'm going to relegate mine to the board. Imo the biggest advantage that red offers are the blast effects and maybe bolt. Just having a 1 mana answer your opponent's Leovold/TNN/JTMS is going to be a beating.
I feel like if anything there is going to be an increase in swords since Maverick/Blade decks are going to be back so magus is probably a no no. In making some of these changes I think you can clean up your manabase slightly.
I think the Magus of the Moon splash in DnT is dope af and I hope to see people play it. Playing Deathrite Shaman and keeping a basic Swamp would combat moon effects if you play smart. As far as DnT in general, 1-2 Dread of Night goes a long way in addressing Mother of Runes and friends. I think this also re-validates keeping red in the deck for lightning bolt, forked bolt and fire covenant.
Red is definitely powerful. K-Command is gonna be great (if you can cast it) against most fair decks, and with the rise in Blade/Maverick, it gets even better. The three Decay builds of 4C seem unnecessary now - can probably shave to two or even fewer - but my big question is Leovold. Elves will inevitably increase, and he's great against them. If Griselbrand decks rise, he prevents the card draw and buys you time to find answers to the 7/7. Does Leovold get better or worse?
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