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Thread: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

  1. #41
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    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    I think Leo gets better. Brewing with White because I think Mentor is the best finisher for price and StP is better with decks like Blade and Maverick coming out to play.

  2. #42
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    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    Quote Originally Posted by theMonster View Post
    Red is definitely powerful. K-Command is gonna be great (if you can cast it) against most fair decks, and with the rise in Blade/Maverick, it gets even better. The three Decay builds of 4C seem unnecessary now - can probably shave to two or even fewer - but my big question is Leovold. Elves will inevitably increase, and he's great against them. If Griselbrand decks rise, he prevents the card draw and buys you time to find answers to the 7/7. Does Leovold get better or worse?
    I think Leovold will be just as consistently good

  3. #43

  4. #44

    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    @mindcrank: I think there will be many viable list and card choises will come down to the expected meta. I am not sure where fire covenant is better than the usual removal spells/sweepers (Golgari Charm/Lightning Bolt/Fatal Push/Dismember/Marsh Casualties). While I see that it can be a 1 for x and kills Eldrazi more reliable, however Strixes should deal with that menace.

    Moreover I think there are two approaches to control: Preemptive or reactive, time will tell which approach is better in this shell. I came down on the other side with 3 Thoughtseize and 2 Hymn (I think there are few situations where Inquisition is strictly better than Thoughtseize) instead of Counterspell/Spell Snare an co.

    Also my creature base is a little lighter, allowing for more -1/-1 effects since I am not relying on TNN. I also play a Garruk Relentless main, because he can create ridiculous amounts of value, if unopposed. I decided to cut one Ponder for more Removal main, which I find a nice hedge against Bloodmoon. I play one Basic Swamp, which I hope to fetch before Bloodmoon resolves and with an active DRS I should have a fighting chance. I decided against an Island because it doesn't help much getting the Bloodmoon of the table and I wanted to play Wasteland as well, that's why I opted for this compromise.

    4c Czech Pile (61)

    Lands (20)
    4 Poluted Delta
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wasteland
    4 Underground Sea
    1 Badlands
    1 Bayou
    1 Tropical Island
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Swamp

    Creatures (13)
    4 Baleful Strix
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    3 Snapcaster Mage

    Interaction (9)
    4 Force of Will
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Hymn to Tourach

    Card Draw/Selection (9)
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    1 Night's Whisper
    1 Painful Truths

    Plainswalker (3)
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Garruk Relentless

    Removal (8)
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Fatal Push
    1 Lightning Bolt
    1 Golgari Charm
    1 Marsh Casualties

    Sideboard (15)
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Reanimate
    1 Forked Bolt
    2 Diabolic Edict
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Golgari Charm
    1 Marsh Casualties
    1 Lost Legacy

    Things I am still unsure about are:
    1) Cut Garruk for a 4th Ponder?
    2) Do we need more gravehate? If so Cage? Spellbomb? I'd prefer cage.
    3) Do we want to play Engineered Explosives? Maybe in one of the Marsh Casualties slots?
    4) I haven't tested some spicy things too much, but Lost Legacy and Reanimate could make for some crazy moves >_<
    5) What MU do you think are bad for us?

  5. #45

    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    Here is my list that I literally just put together. Played against tezzerator and food chain and it felt great but really it needs more time. Anyways feel free to critique. I know that I wanted to play the tnn oppose to baleful because I want to be reactive but yet not really on leo the whole way. I want to turn a corner and be aggressive.

    I play against reanimator, dnt, infect, tezzerator, food chain and miracles (or whatever they move too)

    4 deathrite
    2 Noble
    4 true name
    2 leovold
    2 snapcasters

    1 counterspell
    4 ponder
    4 brainstorm
    1 painful truths
    1 murderous cut
    1 pyroblast
    2 k command
    4 force of will
    1 nights whisper
    1 fatal push
    3 abrupt decay
    1 lightning bolt

    2 Jace the mind sculptor

    4 polluted delta
    4 verdant catacombs
    1 scalding Tarns
    3 underground sea
    2 volcanic island
    2 tropical island
    1 bandlands
    1 bayou
    2 wasteland (I just changed this, idk if I like it)

  6. #46

    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    @Whit3boy316 I think going all in on TNN gives you an edge against fair decks. This also makes the 2 Nobles necessary. I am not sure how good your MU against Delver, especially Grixis, will be, since without equipment they might be able to race. Moreover I think your Combo MU will be pretty bad (at least g1, since I haven't seen your sideboard). You only play one counterspell and one pyroblast alongside the forces.

    You stated the decks you usually play against and it seems like there your list could do ok (d&t should be positive, foodchain might be slightly negative and reanimator, especially Br, could be very bad especially the unmask version, miracles isn't a deck anymore).

    I think it makes more sense discussing lists that will be competetive in an open meta. Tayloring it to your own local meta should be easy, since this deck has A LOT of flex slots. So far I am not even sure there are much fixed slots :).

    Lands (20)
    - 0-2 Basics
    - 0-2 Wastelands
    - 8-10 Fetches
    - Duals depending on your build

    Creatures
    - 4 Deathrites (fix!)
    - 0-4 Strixes (however I think going below 2 is incorrect)
    - 0-2 Leovold
    - 0-2 TNN (I don't think you want more than that, but who knows...)
    - 0-1 Vendilion Clique

    Countermagic
    - 4 FoW (fix)
    - 0-2 Counterspell
    - 0-2 Spellsnare
    - 0-2 Spellpierce

    Hand disruption
    - 0-2 Hymn
    - 0-3 Thoughtseize/Inquisition

    Card draw/selection
    - 4 Brainstorm (fix)
    - 3-4 Ponder (fix)
    - 1-2 Painful Truths/Night's Whisper (fix)

    Plainswalker
    - 1-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (fix)
    - 1-2 Liliana of the Veil

    Removal
    - 2-3 Abrupt Decay (fix)
    - ...
    Here you can go wild depending on your playstyle and meta, however I think even with miracles gone, Decay is still the most important removal of the format because of versatility and reliability since it can't be countered and hits almost all relevant targets.

    What do you think are the decks we should prepare beating for? I think the following are most relevant:
    - Elves
    - Storm
    - BUG Midrange of any kind (including foodchain and Aluren)
    - Death and Taxes
    - Grixis Delver
    - Sneak and Show (including Omnishow)
    - Bladedecks
    - All Stage/Darkdepths Variants
    Last edited by SeBass; 04-30-2017 at 07:15 AM.

  7. #47
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    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    I really can't be sure why the deck is still on the red splash, white seems now definitively stronger. Stp is really better than fatal push and K-Command is a good card against creature deck but I don't think that is enough as an argument.

    Pyroblast is a good reason for sure, no doubt about it. But White is giving so much option right now : Lingering Souls is the first in mind, and the card is complete bonker in the deck. C-priest and meddling mage are excellent agains't combo.

  8. #48

    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    I'm not sure I agree with the white splash. Do you have a list to go along with that suggestion? Yes, StP is better than Fatal Push, however most lists don't play that many. I think combo is beatable with the red splash as well, though obviously it doesn't do much. However, I think it makes our matchup against fair decks much better. The problem with white is, that it does not provide reach, which makes it very hard to deal with plainswalker, especially those with cc>3. Moreover what white sorcery/instant cards besides StP or it's ugly cousin PtE do you think are playable in this shell? I'm not such a big fan of the creatures (CP, MM), because without K-Command they can't be reccured and I can't see how we can afford to play 2 each, also without mom we can't protect them all that well.

    Besides I actually think K-Command is one reason to justify the red-splash and pyroblast the other. Command in combination with mage can generate insane amounts of card advantage, while being very versatile and Pyroblast answers so many threats (TNN, Leovold, Jace, Show and Tell, all Counterspells except Flusterstorm, Strix, Delver, ...). I don't see how white could have such a broad answer to the field at this moment. Maybe you can post your list and we can discuss it further.

    Has anyone tried playing Hydroblast against Bloodmoon? Maybe with a basic Island in the Manabase? Might be a little bit narrow...could also hit Past in Flames, Sneak Attack, Burn Spells. I am not sure it's worth it, but if Dragon Stompy and R/W Taxes becomes more popular, it may be an idea.

  9. #49

    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    This weekend went 6-2 to end up being 12th in a 181 legacy players tournament.

    This is the list I played:

    Creatures:

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Baleful Strix
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trent

    Cantrip:

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    Countermagic:

    4 Force of Will
    2 Counterspell
    2 Spell Snare

    Removal:

    2 Lightning Bolt
    2 Fatal Push
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Kolaghan's Command

    Planeswalkers:

    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    Lands (20):

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Flooded Strand
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    Sideboard:

    2 Pyroblast
    2 Hydroblast
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Diabolic Edict
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Marsh Casualties
    1 Engineered Explosives

  10. #50

    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    Quote Originally Posted by sikariok9 View Post
    This weekend went 6-2 to end up being 12th in a 181 legacy players tournament.

    This is the list I played:

    Creatures:

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Baleful Strix
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trent

    Cantrip:

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    Countermagic:

    4 Force of Will
    2 Counterspell
    2 Spell Snare

    Removal:

    2 Lightning Bolt
    2 Fatal Push
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Kolaghan's Command

    Planeswalkers:

    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    Lands (20):

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Flooded Strand
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    Sideboard:

    2 Pyroblast
    2 Hydroblast
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Diabolic Edict
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Marsh Casualties
    1 Engineered Explosives
    What did you play against?

  11. #51

    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    How did the 2 Hydroblasts work for you? Did you play against Lands/other Loam Decks where Wasteland would have been relevant? Do you think with 2 K-Commands the 4th Snapcaster is necessary?

  12. #52
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    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    Quote Originally Posted by SeBass View Post
    I'm not sure I agree with the white splash. Do you have a list to go along with that suggestion? Yes, StP is better than Fatal Push, however most lists don't play that many. I think combo is beatable with the red splash as well, though obviously it doesn't do much. However, I think it makes our matchup against fair decks much better. The problem with white is, that it does not provide reach, which makes it very hard to deal with plainswalker, especially those with cc>3. Moreover what white sorcery/instant cards besides StP or it's ugly cousin PtE do you think are playable in this shell? I'm not such a big fan of the creatures (CP, MM), because without K-Command they can't be reccured and I can't see how we can afford to play 2 each, also without mom we can't protect them all that well.

    Besides I actually think K-Command is one reason to justify the red-splash and pyroblast the other. Command in combination with mage can generate insane amounts of card advantage, while being very versatile and Pyroblast answers so many threats (TNN, Leovold, Jace, Show and Tell, all Counterspells except Flusterstorm, Strix, Delver, ...). I don't see how white could have such a broad answer to the field at this moment. Maybe you can post your list and we can discuss it further.

    Has anyone tried playing Hydroblast against Bloodmoon? Maybe with a basic Island in the Manabase? Might be a little bit narrow...could also hit Past in Flames, Sneak Attack, Burn Spells. I am not sure it's worth it, but if Dragon Stompy and R/W Taxes becomes more popular, it may be an idea.

    1 Bayou
    1 Island
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Tropical Island
    3 Tundra
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    4 Baleful Strix
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Counterspell
    1 Esper Charm
    2 Abrupt Decay
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Night's Whisper
    2 Lingering Souls
    4 Ponder
    SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
    SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
    SB: 2 Thoughtseize
    SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 1 Pithing Needle
    SB: 1 Invasive Surgery
    SB: 3 Flusterstorm
    SB: 1 Erase
    SB: 1 Containment Priest
    SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast

    Probably something like this.

  13. #53

    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    It was a full-weekend tournament with all the other formats, being the most popular Modern. that's why I chose to sleeve up a couple of hydroblast (remember Burn is the cheapest deck to build for Legacy, and is a good deck in Modern). The name of the tournament is Arcanis and we often call it Burncanis XD. Also with the fall of miracle, I expected more Sneak attack, more TES, more grixis, more UR Delver...in all this pairings Hydroblast is a god.

    My pairings were:

    R1 Elves (2-0)

    Kill his main threats (symbiote, nettle, etc) counter the glimpse and Natural order. Leovold is good vs them. I played too bad this matches :D

    Sided in: explosives, toxic, marsh
    Sided out: snares, baleful

    R2 Grixis Delver (2-0)

    kill the shaman, strix the delver. Easy matchup if he doesnt mess a lot with your lands.
    second game was fairly grindy

    Sided in: hydros, pyros, explosives, marsh
    Sided out: forces, jaces

    R3 Big Eldrazi (2-0)

    Kolaghan command mvp. In both games had enough counterspells to deal with all is dusts, tks, etc when he casted ulamog from the ugin eye, I could counter it and burn him back with bolt snap bolt

    Sided in: Diabolic edict, engineered explosives, thoughtseize
    Sided out: Fatal push, leovolds, bolt

    R4 TES (0-2)

    He comboes me T2 first game post duress
    Second game I keep a hand of hydro, pyro, snare, leovold. I pyro his main phase bs,then i draw a force of will so i decide to cast leovold (full tapped). in his turn he duress my fow and goes petal petal led burning empty warrens for 12
    I could have waited for 4 lands to cast leo, since both hydro and snare are answers to burning wish, but he had the perfect hand plus a duress.

    Sided in: pyros, hydros, flusters, thoughtseizes, explosives
    Sided out: bolts, kolaghans, decays, pushes, baleful

    R5 High Tide (2-0)

    He draws poorly and his deck is fairly easy to counter.

    Sided in: pyros, flusters, tgsz, surgicals
    Sided out; removals, baleful

    R6 Turbo depths (2-0)

    Interesting games, first he mull to 4 and almost won me with sejiri steppe to avoid my baleful (lucky I was 19 and had active shaman with his recently death hexmage)
    Second game was ridiculous with me drawing only lands and him with 2 elvish spirit guide and 3 not of this world in hand. I managed to fateseal him after he pull out all of my hand.

    Sided in: Diabolic edicts, surgical extractions, thoughtseizes, flusterstorms
    Sided out: bolts, pushes, leovolds, kolaghans

    R7 Infect (0-2)

    Dont understand how could I lose this round (opp was a friend of mine), this MU is pretty easy for my deck, but I drew poorly and he had everything he needed in hand. Remember we got 8 removals, 4 snapcasters and 4 baleful :S

    Sided in: Diabolic edict, pyroblast, marsh casualties, engineered explosives
    Sided out: leovolds and cant remember

    R8 Elves (2-1)

    Pretty similar to R1, but this player was much better. He got unlucky with mulligans, and finally I managed to grind him out to both games. G1 he went off at T3 and i copuldn't do much more than watch it.

    Wasteland is unplayable in a so mana intensive deck, the only game i missed it was versus big eldrazi when he had an active eye of ugin.
    Hydroblast underperformed because of my parings (only used it vs grixis and tes), but that was because of the matchups, add there burn and sneak and show and it becomes nuts.

  14. #54

    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    Quote Originally Posted by sikariok9 View Post
    It was a full-weekend tournament with all the other formats, being the most popular Modern. that's why I chose to sleeve up a couple of hydroblast (remember Burn is the cheapest deck to build for Legacy, and is a good deck in Modern). The name of the tournament is Arcanis and we often call it Burncanis XD. Also with the fall of miracle, I expected more Sneak attack, more TES, more grixis, more UR Delver...in all this pairings Hydroblast is a god.
    First of all congrats for your result. Did you know what kind of decks were on the Top8-ed?

  15. #55

    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    Of course, half of the top8 players were friends of mine!

    1st UR Burn
    2nd Grixis Delver
    3rd-4th Esper Tempo and Infect
    5th-8th 2x Infect, UR Burn, Food Chain

  16. #56

    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    @sikariok9 Congratulations on your finish! Yeah, not beating Infect seems weird, but variance is a thing :). How was the MU against turbodepths without wasteland? Did you feel EE was a better sweeper than -x/-x efffects? You played a counterspell heavy maindeck, do you think especially vs elves and combo a discard heavy Maindeck would have worked the same way? You don't play any card draw like Painful Truth's, was that a problem in grindy games?

    @Nestalim While I think there is some merit to the Lingering Souls I think 4 StP are way to much and they don't interact with more problematic cards like TNN, Jace and are dead against combo. I can see making a case for maybe playing 2, but I think Bolt/Fatal Push has greater utility than 2 StP. Also Erase and CP don't make up for the loss of Pyroblast. Esper Charm is quite fancy, but we already have all those effects in BUG colors and 3 mana is quite a lot. With bladedecks becoming more popular, I think ancient grude is very powerful as well. I think the esper colors go along better with a Blade/Control deck than an instant/sorcery based control deck.

    Another thing I would like to put up for discussion is how we close the game. TNN seems to be most commomly played, but what about Tombstalker or even Young Pyromancer as a 1-off?

  17. #57

    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    Quote Originally Posted by SeBass View Post
    @sikariok9 Congratulations on your finish! Yeah, not beating Infect seems weird, but variance is a thing :). How was the MU against turbodepths without wasteland? Did you feel EE was a better sweeper than -x/-x efffects? You played a counterspell heavy maindeck, do you think especially vs elves and combo a discard heavy Maindeck would have worked the same way? You don't play any card draw like Painful Truth's, was that a problem in grindy games?

    @Nestalim While I think there is some merit to the Lingering Souls I think 4 StP are way to much and they don't interact with more problematic cards like TNN, Jace and are dead against combo. I can see making a case for maybe playing 2, but I think Bolt/Fatal Push has greater utility than 2 StP. Also Erase and CP don't make up for the loss of Pyroblast. Esper Charm is quite fancy, but we already have all those effects in BUG colors and 3 mana is quite a lot. With bladedecks becoming more popular, I think ancient grude is very powerful as well. I think the esper colors go along better with a Blade/Control deck than an instant/sorcery based control deck.

    Another thing I would like to put up for discussion is how we close the game. TNN seems to be most commomly played, but what about Tombstalker or even Young Pyromancer as a 1-off?
    I've been testing a slightly modified version of the deck that I listed above ( no baleful, 4 tnn, 2 Noble) and it has been great. All the removal alows me to durdle and gives me time to slam down a tnn. Then it basically turn into me controlling the board how I please.....fatal push this, jace bounce that, swing for 3.....it turns a corner very fast. I have really been enjoying it. Have played against dnt, infect, tezzerator and food chain

  18. #58

    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    I have to catch up with the Threat but I have been working n a 4c List for about 1 week (sad to say goodbye to shardless) and I took it to our weekly local Legacy yesterday and went 4-0 with it.

    I played

    R1: D&T 2-1

    G1 was close as I knew his deck and had a decent starting Hand but I had 0 Cantrips and drew 2 Fow+ CS and was slayn by a recruitered Mirran Crusader after being taxed by 2 Wasteland,1 Port, 2 Revoker (DRS). G2+G3 I boarded it all of my SBStuff (2 F-Bolt, Plaque, Deluge, Edict, 1 Thoughtseize, Needle) and just grinded him out. I never felt in Danger of losing those games even though he had Karakas+Thalia both games.

    R2: BRG Zoo/Burn with PoP and Fireblast

    He hadn't played in a while and seemed a little rusty. I just out-CA him and fetched for basics and thus invalidaet his PoP (allthough this was not on purpose, I was scared of wasteland, he had 3 Duals an a Fetch out, when I saw the PoP in hand with clique)

    R3: Grixis/4CDelver 2-0

    This felt very faveroable, Just trade 1-for-1 early and then pull ahead with your 3 and 4 drops. G2 was Clsoe (1 Life) but I think he drew 2 Anglers both games, which is like the only really scarry threat (with TNN). Never saw Pyromancer

    R4: BUG NicFit 2-ß (actually 4-0 as we palyed more games for fun)

    Just value them out and watch out not to get blown out by Cabal Therapy, the 2 Basics invalidate his Explorer, as you keep par on mana and allways have somethin to do with it as well. I even won through Silumgar, the drifting death with DRS+Leovold (PBlastet it the other game) Edict came in really handy here again.

    Deck:

    20 Lands

    4 Delta
    4 Tarn
    1 Misty
    1 Verdant
    2 Usea
    1 Volc
    1 Trop
    1 Bayou
    1 Badlands
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    2 Wasteland

    13 Creatures

    4 DRS
    3 Strix
    3 Snapcaster
    1 Tnn
    2 Leovold

    27 Spells

    4 Fow
    4 BS
    4 Ponder
    3 Push
    2 Decay
    1 L.Bolt
    1 K. Comamnd
    2 Counterspell
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Painfull Truths
    2 Jace TMS
    1 EE

    SB:
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 D. Edict
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 E. Plague
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Surgical
    2 Forked Bolt
    1 Vendillion Clique

  19. #59

    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    @MorphBerlin Congratulations on your finish (herzlichen Glückwunsch :)). Greedy Manabase, Wastelands&Basics O_O, was that reason to mulligan more frequently? The 3 Fatal Push build worked very well with these pairings I suppose, but against storm, sneak and show etc. it's pretty dead :(. So I think it's a little too much. I think I'd rather play another value card like Painful Truths or Night's Whisper or maybe even a Pyroblast maindeck. The second Push could also be a Dismember to have a reliable removal for delve creatures. Or would you disagree?

  20. #60

    Re: Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

    So how do we beat tnn decks? Mainly stone blade? I feel very confident about the matchups other than tnn, sure I can race with mine but if they have Noble I won't win

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