Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 180

Thread: Shadow of the Fluctuator

  1. #21
    Sushi or Meat and Eggs
    Cire's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2007
    Posts

    2,252

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    @Rufus. That's a good point, totally forgot that the lands we are playing ARE the cyclers.

    Q in my equation, as I noted, referred to cyclers you cycled prior to the turn "you go off". Getting to 20 cards was in reference to the fact that by turn 4 when you're going off, you need to see at least 30 cards to get 2 shadows, and that you already drew 10. I mean if we want to account for everything, then the equation should be something like:

    (Cycle Lands Played)+(Cycle Cards Cycled Prior to Going off)+2(Cycle Cards Cycled Turn you go off + Cycle Cards you drew into and cycled the turn you go off)+(Cycle Cards you drew into and Cycled after casting Shadows)=24 (20 cards needed to be drawn and 4 lands that need to be played)

    This doesn't take into account that cycling brings down the cards in the deck or Landcycling which brings down the cards in the deck, but more specifically brings down the number of cyclers in the deck.

  2. #22

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    ...
    Q in my equation, as I noted, referred to cyclers you cycled prior to the turn "you go off".
    OK, then I don't follow the "Q=9A/60" argument. Suppose (for example) that you have 20 cyclers (which is clearly too low) then you'd have to cycle 3 of them by turn 3 which is not plausible.

    ... I'm pretty comfortable with 38 cyclers as a first target.

    How do we feel about using Land Grant, landcyclers, and a small number of duals to increase the chance of untapped lands?
    EDIT: This is probably not the best idea - either Land Grant or untapped duals could make sense though.

  3. #23
    Sushi or Meat and Eggs
    Cire's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2007
    Posts

    2,252

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    OK, then I don't follow the "Q=9A/60" argument. Suppose (for example) that you have 20 cyclers (which is clearly too low) then you'd have to cycle 3 of them by turn 3 which is not plausible.
    Yeah, in hindsight cyclers you cycled prior to the turn "you go off" can only ever be 1. Let's say you're playing enough ETB untapped lands to play 1 of them by turn 4 and you need to play Fluctuator turn 3. That means you could only ever cycle out of turn on turn 2, and then only once really.

    Edit:

    Okay - let's forget about the math for a second. Assuming the combo works and doesn't fizzle and without paying attention to the numbers of the deck, what would be the optimal play for the first 4 turns?

    For the sake of not sucking, I'm going to assume that the very first land you cast doesn't ETBT, so:

    Turn 1: Non-ETBT Land (Black AND White Producing, so Blasted Landscape doesn't count) - Discard Spell and/or Kill (?)
    Turn 2: ETBT Land - Enlightened tutor if no Fluctuator in hand or Discard Spell and/or Kill
    Turn 3: ETBT Land - Fluctuator
    Turn 4: Non-ETBT Land or Accel - "Go Off"

    So . . . let's for a second just assume my math under post 10 holds up, and we only need 28 cyclers for the combo, the requirements of the deck thus far would be:

    28 Cyclers
    11 Discard/Kill Spells
    9 B/W Non-ETBT Lands/Accel
    3 Other Non-ETBT Lands/Accel
    24 Lands

    So doubling down on clyclers/lands and accel and non-ETBT lands, I have the following:

    12 Cycle Lands
    5 B/W duals
    4 Blasted Landscape
    4 Lotus Petal

    12 Cycling Cards
    11 Discard/Kill Spells
    4 Fluctuator
    4 Shadow of the Grave
    4 Enlightened tutor
    3 Dark Ritual
    1 Laboratory Maniac

    That would be 64 cards. . . the problem now is what to remove with the consideration that the deck, still, probably needs even more cyclers.
    Last edited by Cire; 04-19-2017 at 05:22 PM.

  4. #24

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    On the theme of cycling utility, I like Cloud of Faeries/Unearth as an alternative or supplement to Dark Ritual, though it does put a little extra stress on the mana base.

    Quote Originally Posted by barook
    Mox Diamond might be an option?
    Lotus petal is better- you're not going to be untapping, and the lands are valuable as cyclers.

  5. #25

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    ...
    For the sake of not sucking
    ...
    You sure that option is available with this plan?

  6. #26
    Sushi or Meat and Eggs
    Cire's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2007
    Posts

    2,252

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    You sure that option is available with this plan?
    Not really - this, as noted in the very first line of this thread, is not going to be competitive. But I feel the point of this exercise is to make a good faith effort to make it as good as possible. "Sucking" in this case can be defined as "not even trying to shore up this deck's glaring weaknesses"

    Also, Cloud of Faeries/Unearth doesn't add mana, it just mana fixes for B.

  7. #27

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    ...

    Also, Cloud of Faeries/Unearth doesn't add mana, it just mana fixes for B.
    You pay :B: for unearth, and then get to untap up to 2 lands.

  8. #28
    Sushi or Meat and Eggs
    Cire's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2007
    Posts

    2,252

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    You pay :B: for unearth, and then get to untap up to 2 lands.
    Lol, forgot that it returns to play. So . . . assuming that you have 4 mana open when you start to combo off you need to generate exactly 4BBU additional mana to win. So far the list above has 4 lotus petal and 3 Dark rituals. That is XXXBBBBBBB in potential mana, so XXB more mana than is strictly required. We can probably replace 1 lotus petal and 1 Dark ritual with 1 unearth and 1 cloud of faeries. I don't know if that is a smart move though, since they are essentially a combo and useless without the other (in terms of generating mana), and the lotus petal also doubles up as a turn 1 B/W Non-ETBT Lands/Accel

  9. #29

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Lol, forgot that it returns to play. So . . . assuming that you have 4 mana open when you start to combo off you need to generate exactly 4BBU additional mana to win. So far the list above has 4 lotus petal and 3 Dark rituals. That is XXXBBBBBBB in potential mana, so XXB more mana than is strictly required. We can probably replace 1 lotus petal and 1 Dark ritual with 1 unearth and 1 cloud of faeries. I don't know if that is a smart move though, since they are essentially a combo and useless without the other (in terms of generating mana), and the lotus petal also doubles up as a turn 1 B/W Non-ETBT Lands/Accel
    I was thinking more like -1 Dark Ritual and 2x each Cloud & Unearth in the pile of cyclers.

  10. #30

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    I wonder how hard it is to set up Unearthing the Laboratory Maniac. The only free discard outlets I could find are Lion's Eye Diamond and Foil.

  11. #31
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2004
    Location

    Claremont, CA
    Posts

    180

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    4 Blasted Landscape
    4 Fetid Pools
    4 Canyon Slough
    4 Polluted Mire

    4 Lotus Petal
    2 Mox Diamond
    4 Fluctuator
    4 Songs of the Damned
    2 Spoils of the Vault
    4 Shadow of the Grave

    4 Archfiend of Ifnir
    4 Twisted Abomination
    4 Viscera Dragger
    4 Wander in Death
    4 Unburden
    4 Street Wraith

    SB:
    7 Swamp
    4 Unmask
    4 Hymn to Tourach

    Once you start to combo, Songs give you way more mana than ritual. At that point you can cycle through your deck and eventually just hardcast Unburdens and Archfiends.
    Last edited by Jander78; 04-27-2017 at 01:02 PM. Reason: added cards tags

  12. #32

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    the only card you might want to fetch with Spoils is Fluctuator.

    Why not just Enlightened Tutor?

    SofV lowers you 12 life point on average with a 48-50 cards deck.

  13. #33
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2004
    Location

    Claremont, CA
    Posts

    180

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    I don't think the mana base can support enlightened tutor. There's no scrubland cycler, and you already need the black for Shadows and Songs. If you're assuming that you can combo of when you play the fluctuator, you might just have to take the ~12. It's also not dead when comboing as it can find a Shadow or Song as needed, especially when you have half a deck.

    That said, they're clearly the weakest slots in the deck. I could see swamps over a Spoils, or some combination of gamble and badland. It's also possible the deck wants fewer Songs, although they seem important enough to warrant 4

  14. #34

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    when you need to draw a card to win it's always 4 of.

    consider discard and counters.
    Gamble is interesting here for the sinergy with Shadow, but anyway: it's a "grave based deck" that will never have the consistency of UB reanimator with SnT and Entomb and it scoops to Spell Snare and Leyline of the Void where Reanimate just starts cantripping into SnT Griselbrand..

  15. #35

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    What about something like Lim-Dul's Vault? Muddle the Mixture is clearly too slow, but maybe there are other viable options.

  16. #36

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    I've been slightly obsessed with Fluctuator for the better part of two decades so I'm geeking out on this thread. Here's my two or three cents:

    1. This deck has to have a way to protector Fluctuator. Period. Without Fluctuator this is a pile of crap. Which leads me to number 2...
    2. This deck has to have a way to Tutor for Fluctuator.

    I think the best way to accomplished this is through Chalice of the Void and Force of Will. This means we need to play primarily blue cyclers and sol lands. It also means we'd need to replace our one drops. Songs of the Damned and Enlightened Tutor out and Cabal Ritual and Fabricate in.

    My initial list looks like this:

    Enablers/Wincon

    4 Fluctuator
    4 Fabricate
    4 Shadow of the Grave
    1 Laboratory Maniac

    Protection

    4 Force of Will
    4 Chalice of the Void

    Cycling

    4 Expunge
    4 Miscalculation
    4 Cloud of Faeries
    4 Unearth
    4 Archfiend of Ifnir

    Mana Sources

    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Lotus Petal

    4 Fetid Pools
    4 Blasted Landscape
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 City of Traitors
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Polluted Delta

    The ideal play is first turn Tomb --> CotV on one. Second turn ---> Delta fetching Sea; Fluctuator; cycle finding at least one Petal one Shadow of the Grave, and one FoW (probably already have some of this in the opening hand); once you have that you can Ritual off the petal and one land and cast Shadow of the Grave drawing your whole deck then Petal again for the blue to cast Lab Maniac and the game ends. All the while you likely have multiple FoWs to protect the combo and you're protected by CotV.

    The problem of course is that's 67 cards and only 28 cyclers. I'd prefer to make that number closer to 60/30. What 7 cards to cut?
    Last edited by Jander78; 04-27-2017 at 06:51 PM. Reason: Added card tags.

  17. #37
    Epic Library
    Brushwagg's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2004
    Location

    Syracuse New York
    Posts

    2,159

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Well I no longer play Legacy, but the new set with Shadow of the Grave Seems like fun. I was thinking of deck ideas. A few cards I considered.

    Gitaxian Probe. "Free" cycler.
    Reaping the Graves. It costs three, but it can act as Shadows 4 and 5 in a creature heavy cycle deck. It would require you to run Cabal Ritual I think.
    Lim-Dûl's Vault If you play Blue, finds what you need.
    Last edited by Jander78; 04-27-2017 at 09:08 PM. Reason: fixed tags
    Quote Scrumdogg @ Amrod's:
    "Didn't you know that Mike Glow invented this format?? We are all just renting it."

    The EPIC Syndicate - Grindermen
    Team Disquailified Poster Duey Cheatem & Howe.

  18. #38

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by Brushwagg View Post
    Well I no longer play Legacy, but the new set with Shadow of the Grave Seems like fun. I was thinking of deck ideas. A few cards I considered.

    Gitaxian Probe. "Free" cycler.
    Reaping the Graves. It costs three, but it can act as Shadows 4 and 5 in a creature heavy cycle deck. It would require you to run [Cabal Ritual[/cards] I think.
    Lim-Dûl's Vault If you play Blue, finds what you need.
    Street Wraith is a better 'free' cycler in this deck. (Though you could obviously slot both into the deck.)

    Reaping the Graves is challenging - most of the cyclers are going to be lands, not creatures. The extra mana cost is also a big deal.

  19. #39

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    If you want to cycle creature cards, Restless Dreams seems better than reaping the graves by virtue of costing less to cast, though it still has mana cost issues...

    Pulling 3 cyclers would be pretty spectacular value. You'd want at least 12 - probably closer to 15-16 cycling creatures to run. There is a decent suite available.

    Having a discard outlet also means that Unearth becomes a way to get the Laboratory Maniac into play so you can go off with just black mana, and running lots of creatures makes Songs of the Damned more potent.

    Edit; It still seems like the biggest hurdle is going to be getting fluctuator onto the field in the first place.
    Last edited by rufus; 04-29-2017 at 11:26 AM.

  20. #40

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    I've been working on this deck for about a week before reading this thread, so here is what I've found so far:

    Going off ASAP is preferable to limit their interaction. Turn one is absolutely possible by Petal+Ritual+Fluctuator->Shadow (I've done it many times), but you need to play the least amount of non-cyclers to not fizzle. My builds have relied on not playing tutors and just mulligaining to fluctuator, though it's very hard to go off with only 1-2 cycle cards in hand, so I've been using Treasure Find to restock my hand while drawing into combo peices. This means you want to play as many as 40 lands to help Treasure Find do the job. This means no Songs of the Damned, but really you don't need it. I haven't tried Laboratory Maniac because I didn't think about Unearth, but Tendrils of Agony has been working just fine unless they have anti-storm hate. I board into Sphinx's Tutelage as my win con if I expect hate, and usually works unless you've cycled through 40+ cards before playing it. I briefly tried Seimic Assault as my win con, because you don't need fluctuator (just use Seismic 5 times in one turn, cast Shadow, repeat) but RRR cost is rough though they might be a way to make it work.

    If you want to slow the deck down and add protection I have a few suggestions as well. Blue cyclers (Miscalcution, Recind, Cloud of Faeries) + Force of Will is good. You can also use Daze with the new cycle lands because they have basic land types which has the added benefit of returning a cycle land to your hand. Inuition might be the best tutor if you're willing to spend 3 mana because it gets the redundant copies of Fluctuator out of your deck and doesn't have the card disadvantage of Enlightened Tutor or require white mana.

    I've also messed around with Cascading into Flucutaor as the only possibility, but that means no Shadow of the Grave which is too high a cost.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)