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Thread: Shadow of the Fluctuator

  1. #41
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    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Here is the issue with going off as fast as possible - Spanish Inquisition, Oops all Spells and Belcher does so more consistently and faster. In order for this deck to be considered "playable" it has to be better in someway than other existing decks. The best I can do with my lists is get it to be a consistent turn 4 combo with 10 proactive "protection" spells (aka - discard or creature kill). Is that better than existing combo decks? Probably not. Is there a chart tracking the speed, consistency and protection of legacy combo decks? If there is - then we can pick a goal and try to do something better than other combo decks.

  2. #42

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Here is the issue with going off as fast as possible - Spanish Inquisition, Oops all Spells and Belcher does so more consistently and faster...
    Well, if it works well enough to be a budget option, that might be OK too.

  3. #43
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    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Well, if it works well enough to be a budget option, that might be OK too.
    Ha, sure - would love to see a chart of combo decks on those 4 metrics: speed, consistency, protection & price

  4. #44

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Ha, sure - would love to see a chart of combo decks on those 4 metrics: speed, consistency, protection & price
    Yeah, though I think that pricy stuff like Lion's Eye Diamond could find a place in the deck, so I'm not 100% on the budget status.

    Edit @Barry Egan
    ...not that it matters too much, but is there a particular reason to play Treasured Find instead of Regrowth?
    Last edited by rufus; 05-02-2017 at 09:59 PM. Reason: "Unfixed" card name.

  5. #45
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    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Hi, I just got absolutely demolished by this deck on MTGO, and I just wanted to say this idea is the shit. Definitely going to proxy it up for our legacy night this week.

  6. #46

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    I'm trying to work out what a 'restless dreams' list might look like, but this seems terrible:

    Recyclers

    4 Shadow of the Grave
    2 Restless Dreams


    Fluctuator and friends

    4 Fluctuator
    4 Enlightened Tutor


    Win Con

    1 Laboratory Maniac
    1 Sphinx's Tutelage


    Cycling Package

    4 Unearth
    4 Cloud of Faeries
    3 Jhessian Zombies
    1 Sanctum Plowbeast
    4 Bloated Toad
    4 Blasted Landscape
    1 Irrigated Farmland
    1 Fetid Pools


    Mana (+ cycling lands)

    2 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    2 Mox Diamond
    4 Scrubland
    4 Marsh Flats
    1 Plains
    1 Swamp


    Sideboard?

    Rescind
    Force of Will
    Cabal Therapy
    ...


    It's really hard to fit in a critical mass of cyclers, protection, and ways to find fluctuator.

    The mana base can't support Rescind. It's really tempting to look for a way to work sol lands in.

    Maybe the deck ought to run some kind of Sandbar Merfolk/Wild Dogs/Cabal Therapy package.

  7. #47
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    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    I got killed by Tendrils of Agony earlier. I died on turns 2 and then on turn 1. Granted, I was playing burn so I wouldn't have had Force of Will but still. I wonder about an inclusion of like Noxious Revival or something like that to help fight disruption. I was also going to suggest Gitaxian Probe as another "free" cycler.

  8. #48
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    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Saw an interesting version on reddit. Goldfished a few and after changing one polluted Mire for a swamp, the list is the best one so far.

    : Shadow of the Fluctuator 4 Blasted Landscape 4 Fetid Pools 4 Canyon Slough 4 Polluted Mire (would recommend 3 Mire 1 swamp, or a dual if you want some colored sb cards)

    4 Lotus Petal 2 Mox Diamond 4 Fluctuator 4 Songs of the Damned 2 Spoils of the Vault 4 Shadow of the Grave

    4 Archfiend of Ifnir 4 Twisted Abomination 4 Viscera Dragger 4 Wander in Death 4 Unburden 4 Street Wraith

    SB: 7 Swamp 4 Unmask 4 Hymn to Tourach

    This guy's version is pretty smart. It won't kill the turn you go off, but you will end the turn with probably 12 damage, and another 10+ on the board with your opponents having no creatures in play or cards in hand.


    Final edit, I see it's wobbles list. Nice job.
    -rob

  9. #49
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    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    @mistercakes, how does that version deal damage? Just hardcasting Archfiends seems . . . not great?

    Edit - but it could be a good backup plan? I don't know if 15 cycling creatures support the Songs, but I'll play around with the numbers. What about the following list (all black cycling creatures, so you can cast them off songs if you really need to and have no better option):


    4 Marsh flats
    4 Blasted Landscape
    3 Irrigated Farmland
    3 Fetid Pools
    3 Scattered Groves
    3 Canyon Slough
    1 Scrubland

    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Fluctuator
    4 Shadow of the Grave
    4 Enlightened tutor
    3 Songs of the Damned

    4 Viscera Dragger
    4 Wasteland Scorpion
    4 Archfiend of Ifnir
    3 Twisted Abomination
    1 Laboratory Maniac


    On a non-fluctuator but cycling related note - with no terminus in the metagame, maybe a living death legacy port may be viable?

  10. #50

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    ...

    On a non-fluctuator but cycling related note - with no terminus in the metagame, maybe a living death legacy port may be viable?
    Cascade got better with the change in split card rules too. There's an old thread full of bad ideas somewhere.

  11. #51
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    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Tested my list from post #49 - it is a reliable turn 4 combo and if you want to rush out an Archfiend turn 3 you can do that too and it does a great job of controlling the board - so for creature based decks I would say getting a fluctuator out and getting an Archfiend out at the same time is basically a win (not really - i mean a simple STP can still beat you, buuuuttt... ) . So that's an improvement. I do want at least 2 more discard and 2 more removal - but the deck is way too tight. There might be room by taking out a Twisted Abomination or two, but that's about it. Additionally, I am seeing lots more Blood Moons and Chalices which both take out our tutor - don't really know what to do about that.

  12. #52
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    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    i agree that thoughtseize or some other discard spell should be in the maindeck. if you are running enlightened tutor, you should definitely have street wraith over the scorpion, as it gives you an instant speed draw after casting tutor if you need to main phase tutor.

    the lab man is too much of a dead card, and can also trip you up while cycling. i think maybe cabal therapy could be better than thoughtseize, at least some combination could be better. this is given that you can unearth your guys and flashback. unmask is also an option, since it can allow you to jam out a fluctuator the same turn if need be.

    i'll continue goldfishing to get a better understanding of the deck, but i'm pretty sure if you pass the turn with close to the lethal, or lethal on the board, and they have no hand + creatures in play...i feel like this is still good enough given the consistency is mostly still there.

    // 60 Maindeck
    // 8 Artifact
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Fluctuator

    // 16 Creature
    4 Archfiend of Ifnir
    4 Twisted Abomination
    4 Viscera Dragger
    4 Street Wraith

    // 10 Instant
    4 Songs of the Damned
    2 Spoils of the Vault
    4 Shadow of the Grave

    // 16 Land
    4 Fetid Pools
    4 Canyon Slough
    3 Polluted Mire
    4 Blasted Landscape
    1 Swamp

    // 10 Sorcery
    4 Wander in Death
    2 Unburden
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Cabal Therapy

    thran turbine could also be strong here, it only nets you a card per turn, but it can still dig a bit deeper for some of the matchups that give you more time. haven't tested yet, but might be worth trying.
    -rob

  13. #53

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Here's the list I've been testing.

    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Fetid Pool
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Remote Island
    2 Polluted Mire

    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Fluctuator
    3 Fabricate/Lim Dul's Vault/Spoils of the Vault (so far I like Spoils the most because of 1 cmc and only needing black)
    4 Shadow of the Grave
    3 Songs of the Damned (also tested 4 but 3 seems right)
    2 Tolarian Winds
    1 Lab Maniac

    19 cyclers (15 creatures, 4 unearth)


    I've gotten a bunch of turn one and two goldfish wins. T1 -> Ancient Tomb -> Fluctuator -> Cycle -> Petal -> Songs -> Shadow -> Draw your deck -> few different ways to win from there, simplest being cast another Songs and petal for blue to cast Maniac.

    Tolarian Winds has been an all-star. Midway through testing I realized I absolutely needed at least two copies in the deck because I'd get to that point where I had a dead hand of non-cyclers. With Tolarian Winds you can basically guarantee you will draw your deck if you play it on top of a Shadow on the stack. It lets you lower the total number of cyclers and play sol lands reliably. It's also nice because it can put Maniac in your graveyard for you to unearth later. And it's a quasi-tutor for when you don't have Fluctuator.

    I feel like FoW needs to be in the deck or in the 75 at the very least to operate as a combo protector and maybe a few copies of Mox Diamond to increase speed further. I should probably cut something for Duress as well to make opponents discard FoW.

    Am I crazy to think this is a real deck? I'm thinking of actually bringing this abomination to the weekly Legacy free play next week

  14. #54
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    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    is 27 cyclers enough to go for turn 1 kills? seems a bit risky, but i'll try goldfishing with your list. probably does need some disruption, discard or counter.
    -rob

  15. #55

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    is 27 cyclers enough to go for turn 1 kills? seems a bit risky, but i'll try goldfishing with your list. probably does need some disruption, discard or counter.
    It's an extremely rough and fluctuating (pardon the pun ) list right now. Thinking of cutting two seas for two additional cyclers. I need to go re-read some of the math that was done earlier in the thread. From testing it feels like a minimum of 30 is where you want to be but I really don't know what to cut.

  16. #56
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    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    if you're going for turn 1 and tomb/city is enabling that, i agree that underground sea should definitely be some number of cyclers. are you running cloud of faeries? this makes a lot of sense with the sol lands. (you would be aiming for a turn 2-3 though...then you really need disruption)
    -rob

  17. #57
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    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post

    Am I crazy to think this is a real deck? I'm thinking of actually bringing this abomination to the weekly Legacy free play next week
    "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post

    the lab man is too much of a dead card, and can also trip you up while cycling.
    I think a single space in the deck to allow you to unconditionally win is completely worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes
    is 27 cyclers enough to go for turn 1 kills?
    using my terrible math from the first page - you would need around 38 cyclers to hope to go off turn 1 - However, be aware that doesn't take into account that unlike going the turn after you cast fluctuator, you actually need to find cards to be able to cast your first Shadows.

  18. #58

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Yea, I'm using Cloud Fairies. The untapping doesn't really help too much though. I don't think I've hard casted it before and colorless mana isn't that important. But it's a corner case that would make it better than any other cyclers. If I include Cabal Therapy in the list then there's even more upside to running them.

    One thing to consider about the cycling math is that a lot of your non cyclers are enablers for more cycling (e.g. petal, winds, shadow, and songs) if you draw into these non cyclers you WILL draw your whole deck if you can make the appropriate mana.

    That being said I'm looking to up the cyclers to at least 30. I just don't know what to cut because I also need to make room for disruption. I suppose the seas are a place to start.

    I think the sideboard should include FoW, Thoughtseize, and possibly Toxic Deluge. The problem is the list is so tight that you almost cannot sideboard anything without diluting the deck. Seems like there will need to be max four disruption slots that can be flexed out in the sideboard. Also deciding if I like Cabal Therapy or Duress more.

  19. #59

    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    ....

    using my terrible math from the first page - you would need around 38 cyclers to hope to go off turn 1 - However, be aware that doesn't take into account that unlike going the turn after you cast fluctuator, you actually need to find cards to be able to cast your first Shadows.
    Running Tolarian Winds or Restless Dreams can make a big difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood
    ...
    Tolarian Winds has been an all-star. Midway through testing I realized I absolutely needed at least two copies in the deck because I'd get to that point where I had a dead hand of non-cyclers. ...
    Have you considered Restless Dreams?

  20. #60
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    Re: Shadow of the Fluctuator

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Running Tolarian Winds or Restless Dreams can make a big difference.
    Do they? They seem to simply be Shadows 5 through whatever. Using my math lets see how many cyclers it takes the place of. I'll be using the turn 4 formula I used in post 9.

    The formula was: 2((10X/60)+(X^2/360))+ (X((X/6)+(X^2/360))/30)=20 (the assumptions being that you're running only 4 Shadows, going off turn 4, are going off the turn after you casted fluctuator, and didn't cycle anything prior to the turn you go off). X solved for about 27.934 cyclers. The number 20 at the end of the formula was the assumption that we needed to get to card "30" in order to see 2 Shadows. Essentially the side after the equal sign can be expressed as 2(60/Y)-10 where Y is how many "Shadows" you are playing.

    If you're playing 2 Tolarian Winds/Restless Dreams, going under the assumptions above you would probably need 18 cylcers only (see the following: (2((10X/60)+(X^2/360))+ (X((X/6)+(X^2/360))/30)=2(60/6)-10)). However, this doesn't take into account the fact that unlike digging 20 deep you are only digging 10 dead. That means that you are getting half of the mana generators (dark ritual/lotus petals) that you would need to actually cast that second "shadows".

    But, it is a good idea - since it does seem that running Tolarian Winds/Restless Dreams does allow you to reduce your cycler count (I mean I don't think that each of the "Shadows" counts as 5 "cylcers" but let me be generous and say they each take the place of two or 2.5 cylcers?)

    ----

    Edit: Another question is how many "creature" cyclers you need to play AND how many non Cyling cards you need to play for a Restless dreams to act a bit like a Shadow of the Grave assuming that Shadow of the Grave is ALSO being run in that deck. Shadow of the Graves draws the following amount of cards (turn 4): 2((10X/60)+(X^2/360)) where X is how many cyclers you are playing in your deck. Restless Dreams, on turn 4 draws: cards equal to the lower amount of either non-cycling cards in your hand or the amount of creatures you cycled. Thus lets say you want to run 24 cyclers, restless dreamswill never be as good as Shadows unless those cyclers are all creatures (or you run ADDITIONAL creature cylcers).

    Thus, instead of treating it as a Shadows, you should treat it as a draw spell where the amounts of cards it draws it the equal to the lowest amount of either non-cycling cards or creatures already cycled after you began cycling on turn 4.

    Using the number 24 (which I picked at random), and half of those are creatures, that means that after you started cycling on turn 4 you cylced at least 2.8 creatures (see: ((10(24)/60)+((24)^2/360))/2) - round that up to 3. . . which makes Restless dreams sort of like an ancestral recall - which is still good - but exactly half as good as Shadows. Under that theory, figuring out how many total cyclers to run if you are running Restless dreams is slightly different since we used 2(60/6)-10) to express how many "shadows" we are running - but sicne Restless dreams is about 1/2 a shadow, that should be 2(60/5)-10)) which would get us to the fact that we need about 22.315 cylcers. Rounding up that is 23 which means that our assumption (that 1 restless dreams can take the place of 2.5 cylcers, each) is around correct (assuming that you are running at least 12 creature cyclers out of those 23 cycler cards)
    Last edited by Cire; 05-05-2017 at 03:09 PM.

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