Yeah, and I'm guessing they just didn't make it a zone when they wrote the comprehensive rules because they would have had to either add rules to negate all the other normal zone change things so that it would work as originally intended, or just make it Exile 2: electric boogaloo.Originally Posted by TsumiBand
Edit: Also Kess is fucking bonkers. Wizards in general is fucking bonkers, as we all knew it would be, but still...goddamn.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Magus you could shallow grave into with U floating which, with rituals and petals seems doable T1/2. Still not quite efficiency of GMan...
The Doomsday Codex
We're catching bullets in our teeth,
Its hard to do but they're so sweet.
And if they take a couple out,
We try to work things out.....
Meow.
The issue is that phased out tokens exiling at SBAs can't be boiled down to a simple zone change. You're understanding the problem here where it's still kinda a zone change, so it's not going to be a clean answer. I think your answer is fine here; phasing has odd functionality. We can use the old explanation or the new, they do the same thing. The issue with following just the rules is that those rules say both decks, and the phased out permanent itself, treat it like it doesn't exist which creates a logical paradox of something trying to "re-exist" without apparently having ever existed. It has to be a real magic card which was present in either deck (or sideboard) before the game started if we're looking for the point where proof of existence can be logically proven within the context of a game of magic, and this is more the reason why a phased out token goes to exile than a messy half-zone change where the rules broke down.
This discussion of phasing is going in circles and getting nowhere. Rather than continue to be upset because Things Are Different Now and The Kids These Days Have It So Easy, let's just agree to disagree here and get back to discussing the Legacy applications of these cards.
Seems slow, conditiona, vulnerable and expensive to cast without winning the game immediately. I don't think it will make a splash.
It is slow. That's the biggest snag here. But, consider the different angles here:
(1) Run some specific ways to make every dork who gets this enchantment put on it indestructible:
Shielded By Faith + Spearbreaker Behemoth + Krosan Warcheif?
(2) Make a deck full of cards that are already indestructible = Value town
Phylactery Lich + Predator Ooze + Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger + Ulamog the Infinite Gyre + Zurgo Helmsmasher
(3) Sprinkle in some creatures you want to die, maybe?
Veteran Explorer + Academy Rector
(4) Give your dorks regeneration?
Yavimaya Hollow + Asceticism
(5) Go all old-school Polymorph?
Kalanui Garden -> Emrakul
(6) Or just enjoy that sweet, sweet ETB action? Some regularly played favorites..
Baleful Strix + Eternal Witness + Precursor Golem + Thought Knot Seer + Solemn Simulacrum + Sundering Titan +
(7) Or other bit players?
Angel of Despair + Auramancer + Avalanche Riders + Bogarden Hellkite + Coiling Oracle + Flametounge Kavu + Any Titan + Laquatus's Champion + Rune Scarred Demon + Siege Gang Commander + Thunder Dragon +
(8) Give your dorks regeneration?
Albino Troll + Augur of Skulls + Deity of Scars + Hellkite Overlord + Loleth Troll + Masticore + River Boa + Spirit Monger + Thrun, the Last Troll + Troll Ascetic +
I'm not sure that aura is better than Proteus Staff, to be completely honest.
It gives haste and only costs mana once..
It's a lot better than Proteus Staff.
If you are using the red enchantment as a value-chain with a bunch of ETB creatures (baleful strix etc) then not getting 2-for-1d by removal seems like a pretty big advantage for the Staff.
If you want a Polymorph to cheat Emrakul into play then the red enchantment has the same disadvantage (gets countered by both instant AND sorcery speed removal) as well as having the drawback of not working with manlands.
Gaining haste is not a huge boon when the enchantment has to sit in play for a turn in order to trigger in the first place.
Proteus Staff also has some additional flexibility in that it can target your opponent's cards.
I like the idea of using this in a deck with a bunch of creatures with ETB effects (similar to a kind of Seance-Midrange deck that people have tried in modern with Mulldrifters and stuff) but at the end of the day you are putting an aura on a dude and then passing the turn which has been an unplayable strategy since basically forever.
Don't worry about it @reAnimator, the rules dictate a phased out token should be exiled. R&D wants to say phasing doesn't cause a zone change so it doesn't exile tokens...even though everything in the rules about phasing (old description and new) provides all the tell-tale signs of a zone change as having occurred.
You can read all the stuff on phasing but the salient point is this: something cannot logically re-exist if it cannot be proven to have existed in the first place. If no one registered a deck with magic cards that make X token, then such a token can't be in that game of magic. When the phased-out status on X token directs cards which could have made X token to treat X token as not existing...then how is X token in a game of magic? Exile it.
---
Anyways if R&D wants to directly buff tokens under the auspice of "simplifying" phasing, the type card you could speculate upon would be Geist of Saint Traft. With new [illogical] phasing rules, this card becomes a a build your own Entreat the Angels when you can invalidate "exile at the end of a specific combat step" on 4/4 angel tokens that can inexplicably phase in and remain for rest of a game. Geist clearly not good enough in legacy/vintage due to Mentor or TNN, but keep an eye out on that type interaction and any cards with phasing on them. It's a pretty high bar for playability as it has to be a proactive engine card and also interactive (moreso if they continue to colorshift phasing towards the slowest color in magic, white).
In terms of mtg flavor Mairsil is great; they correctly color-coded his casting cost to Tresserhorn (i.e. Grixis). They at least put the most important ring (the books imply this is the Mox Ruby) on his finger, but he wears all five. Looking down on Ith (you can't see him but he's imprisoned in a cage dangling over that pit) was a nice touch. The art of the pit lacks visual cues that we're actually looking at The Abyss (the books are a little strange here and would seem to imply that Nether Void and the Abyss are one in the same). Sadly we should really have seen common themes between Mairsil's red ring (Mox Ruby) continued through to Lim-Dul and pre-PW Jaya Ballard. The book series between The Dark -> Alliances is a pretty fun read; makes you wonder if they'll print Jodah, Archmage Eternal anytime soon. For the lore junkies out there: this is the same pit the Priests of Gix slept next to, going slowly insane right?
I made a new thread to discuss Phasing.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Full deck lists are up. Pretty disappointed. Would've been a perfect time to print Cavern of Souls a bunch and get copies out to the casuals. No better product than tribal edh decks. Didn't do it. Failure
Would have been awesome for players, but they did just reprint it in MM17, so this should unfortunately come as no surprise. They'll probably do the tribal commander thing again in like 5 years and reprint it there once it's a $70 card again.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
You can see why, though. They stacked the value in the new cards -- many of the commanders are very powerful. The Wizards commanders are generally completely bonkers. So, they skimped on reprints.
They can't do that. As they learned with the first few Commander sets, if one set has a super money card, that set sells and the other sets rot. Once a card busts $50.00, it is almost impossible for them to put it into a pre-con supplement, unless their design philosophy changes dramatically.
So, for better or worse (worse) the only place you'll see Cavern in the future is in Standard, Masters, or Conspiracy.
Like I said, I think there's a chance they'll do another tribal theme, meaning they'd put it in every deck. Maybe not if they can keep using it to sell Masters sets, but we can always hope.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
That's why the precons are pretty balanced in terms of chase cards and the Wizards precon isn't the complete nuts compared to the other ones - oh, wait.
While I agree with your statement, they completely fucked up this year.
Well, chances for the Cavern of Souls reprint are slim, but there is actually another tribal set coming up: Ixalan. Just saying!
Weeeeell you're equivocating a little bit.That's why the precons are pretty balanced in terms of chase cards and the Wizards precon isn't the complete nuts compared to the other ones - oh, wait.
While I agree with your statement, they completely fucked up this year.
See, the Wizards deck is boss this time around because the new cards are better. But, when it comes to the established, pre-Commander 2017 value of the reprints? If you compare the decks, you'll see they are all really close. In fact, I think MTG Goldfish has the Cats deck ahead by seven dollars.
So, no, this set isn't a counterexample. They do try to balance the prices to the extent they know em.
So, thinking about the new commanders as commanders for a bit:
Mairsil is an interesting and pretty busted take on a Voltron commander. There's at least two ways to take infinite turns with him: Anthroplasm plus Sage of Hours and Ventifact Bottle, Magistrate's Scepter, and some way to untap Mairsil (Horseshoe Crab or something like that). Intuition is probably the best tutor this deck could ask for. I'm going to pick up the Wizards deck but I don't think I'll build this guy just because his default / tuned deck seems pretty obnoxious, although I am sorely tempted to add a bunch of Vehicles and then drive him around the table while making engine noises and shouting, "Beep beep! I'm a Jeep!" like a fucking child.
Kess is actually the Grixis control general I've wanted for a while. I've seen people compare her to Jeleva but I actually think she's just a better Dralnu. My big beef with Jeleva is that she dies really quickly to sweepers and Edicts so she usually just ends up being an expensive - and symmetrical - mill card. Kess is a little better at flying under the radar for a couple of reasons: she won't get people riled up about losing their best spells and she provides more incremental value. She also attacks well, which is nice, and you care less if she dies to a sweeper.
Edgar Markov actually looks like a lot of fun, and I'm tempted to build him. I run a Nin Goblin tribal deck that scratches most of my "aggro in EDH" itches, but Edgar might be a better midrange-ish option for getting the beatdowns rolling.
I'm trying to wrap my head around Mathas and whether he's decent or absolute garbage. A 3/3 for three with a weak evasion ability does not seem promising, but the bounty ability is an interesting way to neutralize big threats, especially if you want to get political about it. I suppose you could make a group hug-ish deck with him, something similar to Queen Marchesa (long may she reign), but I'm not sure how he isn't just worse than her.
The Cat commanders are all super forgettable, which is kind of sad given the meme potential of having a cat deck. Mirri is the most interesting of the bunch and even she's kind of a flavor fail since casting Dueling Grounds But Better feels kind of like cheating.
The Dragons are also super forgettable, but O-Kagachi is probably the biggest flavor win of the set, since he's exactly the five color spirit commander I've wanted: he's bad, he has a weird name, and the art is kind of strange. How much more Kamigawa can you get than that?
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