The new Legacy metagame

[Lemnear]

4 DRS
3-4 SCM
4 TNN
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Wasteland
2 Leovold
3-4 Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay

The next tier 1 deck imo.

[Claymore]

I think the DRS and CB comparison is a good one. There's only like Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, and Engineered Explosives for cards that can cleanly and reliably answer CB, otherwise you're completely locked out of the game. DRS is a 1/2 elf.

I think the existing decks (BUG, Eldrazi, ANT, SNT) will grow in the meta share. Newly enabled decks like Maverick and BUG Delver can come out of the woodwork, with other fast combo like Turbo Depths emerging soon.

A few Ux control decks will come out to take Miracle's control share, along with reinvigorated aggro (if any...Zoo?), but I think that will take some time to develop and mature. Until then, fast combo and midrange.

[CptHaddock]

Regardless of what happens it should be interesting. I guess this means that GP Vegas is going to be our version of the pro tour huh?

[Hanni]

I think we'll see a shift away from the slower midrange decks that have been getting popular lately. In the interim, I think we'll see aggressive decks like Burn, UR Delver, and Ru Sligh punishing these 3-4 color durdly midrange decks.

I see Stoneblade getting more popular again, as well as Elves. I don't think decks like Zoo are coming back... those decks were pushed out by other archetypes, way before Miracles started dominating.

I think we'll settle back into a Delver infested meta long-term, with some midrange value decks that are good against Delver, and various Combo that punishes the midrange decks.

[Ellomdian]

Modern players who started playing legacy because of how wotc handles modern.

I think everyone has gathered that UBx is going to be the premier archetype. I think the most interesting thing about this change is that you are less forced to run decay now that counterbalance is no longer a real card. Obviously the decks that get hit the most are decks that are running top or ones that prey on miracles. SFM is a card again in decks that aren't d&t.

As a Tezz player, I for one am a HUGE FAN of fewer Maindeck Decays!

People keep talking so much shit about how bad modern is but it's honestly the best it's been in years and was more fun for me to play than workshop vs mentor vintage. People just get so pissy about bans that they can't think straight. I'm confident that legacy will be more fun going forward even if it's sad that miracles got hit.

People talk 'shit' about Modern because until today it was the format where you could spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on cards to play a deck only to have it disappear overnight because, reasons. WotC has clearly spent years trying to force it to follow the NWO philosophy and has wielded bans accordingly. If you are doing something they don't like and it gets popular, you are screwed. Forget allowing players to adapt strategies, forget stuff like getting Judges to actually act on Slow Play, just ban it and move on. Because new players might get their fee-fees hurt if they don't have fun watching other people play.

At first:

Less Miracles means less Moat which means more Eldrazi. Also no Counter-Top means less reason to be forced to run Decay so less BUGx lists. No more Terminus means more Aggro.

Later:

DRS and Decay are still fantastic so BUGx lists will return. But I think Eldrazi and Aggro will also remain strong.

I don't think you will see fewer midrange BUG-ish lists just because Decay isn't vital now - how often were they siding it out against non-Miracles lists? I think more people will force aggro because the Kird Ape Brigade are stubborn, but they are going to get DESTROYED by Combo.

I don't think Miracles has been what's holding Maverick down.

Maverick, or multiple dedicated Aggo archetypes, or bad creatures in general. People seem to forget or just choose to ignore that what killed Maverick/Zoo was that Delver was a strictly better aggro creature in a color that allowed you to run Brainstorms. Being able to Spell Pierce in your Legacy Aggro deck >>> running random idiots.

...I see Stoneblade getting more popular again, as well as Elves. I don't think decks like Zoo are coming back... those decks were pushed out by other archetypes, way before Miracles started dominating.

I think we'll settle back into a Delver infested meta long-term, with some midrange value decks that are good against Delver, and various Combo that punishes the midrange decks.

Yup. Miracles players (those that don't straight-up ragequit) will slot into Stoneblade much easier than some kind of Standstill nonsense. And Delver, Delver, DELVER.

[drinkard]

People talk 'shit' about Modern because until today it was the format where you could spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on cards to play a deck only to have it disappear overnight because, reasons. WotC has clearly spent years trying to force it to follow the NWO philosophy and has wielded bans accordingly. If you are doing something they don't like and it gets popular, you are screwed. Forget allowing players to adapt strategies, forget stuff like getting Judges to actually act on Slow Play, just ban it and move on. Because new players might get their fee-fees hurt if they don't have fun watching other people play

The two bans that Modern had most recently belong to two of the currently most played decks: Dredge and Death's Shadow. Infect took a beating, yes, but that is more because of the presence of Death's Shadow than the absence of Gitaxian Probe.

Also I'm jumping into this thread to say: I'm starting to play Legacy because of this change. This could be good or bad news, but in my anecdotal experience, I think that Legacy veterans have blinders on that keep them from seeing how many people weren't interested in their format because of CounterTop and Terminus.

[Chatto]

BUG-colors, Delver, various Combo, and Blood Moon. Something like that...

[supremePINEAPPLE]

People talk 'shit' about Modern because until today it was the format where you could spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on cards to play a deck only to have it disappear overnight because, reasons.

Every single time this has happened the majority of the value of the deck is there even after the bans. Individual cards lose some value but the overall deck is going to be worth basically the same as it was before. Just like every modern deck that's been banned.

WotC has clearly spent years trying to force it to follow the NWO philosophy and has wielded bans accordingly.

You don't know what NWO is.

If you are doing something they don't like and it gets popular, you are screwed. Forget allowing players to adapt strategies, forget stuff like getting Judges to actually act on Slow Play, just ban it and move on. Because new players might get their fee-fees hurt if they don't have fun watching other people play.

I think judges definitely dropped the ball for years when it came to top bullshit but at the end of the day miracles determined the successful decks while being a drag on everything having to do with format. Complaining about fee-fees in this kind of rant is an especially hilarious lack of self awareness.

[maraxusofkelds]

At first:

Less Miracles means less Moat which means more Eldrazi. Also no Counter-Top means less reason to be forced to run Decay so less BUGx lists. No more Terminus means more Aggro.

Later:

DRS and Decay are still fantastic so BUGx lists will return. But I think Eldrazi and Aggro will also remain strong.

I disagree with this. If TNN returns en force, then eldrazi is gonna have a huge issue. Plus eldrazi lost one of its most favorable matchups. I think red stompy is well positioned however. It still runs chalice but has access to t1 blood moon or magus, which is gonna wreck house against all the delver/bug/bantblade decks that rely on greedy mana bases.

[Ellomdian]

You don't know what NWO is.

MaRo's NWO philosophy is presented under the guise of reducing 'Complexity' of the game and lessening the amount of information that a player is expected to keep track of at any given time when making decisions. The biggest issue is straight-up quoted in the article:

Comprehension complexity and board complexity are a problem for beginners. Strategic complexity is not. Why? Because beginners can't see strategic complexity. It requires a certain amount of game knowledge before it's visible.

WotC redistributed whatever complexity budget they allowed for a given cardspace based on the presentation to beginners. When WotC started designing expansion sets with an eye towards new-player acquisition instead of the old methodology of having separate product for introduction and for experienced play, they hamstrung themselves by worrying how new players would respond to cards at certain rarities instead of what the value of the design of the set was as a whole. Players who can just buy the cards they want to play and who aren't reliant on getting them out of the 2-3 packs a week that WotC is catering retail product to now have become 2nd class citizens because they aren't customers anymore, they are advertising for the game.

R&D set out to solve an acquisition problem and ended up with a way to refresh the essence of the game.

From the people who brought you Mythic rarity comes game design by market research. Resource denial (Land D) and Draw-go control are 'unfun' for players who don't understand that level of complexity in game design, regardless of how effective they are within the context of actual gameplay.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Where you see a shadowy cabal bent on taking the fun out of magic I see a limited design principle that makes commons less complex and has zero effect on legacy B&R announcements. You can scapegoat Maro all you want but you are reaching when blaming NWO for the top ban. Like that article mentioned at every possible chance, NWO is about set design, not B&R methodology which we know very little concrete about.

[Cire]

Are Counterbalance and Terminus left for dead in the wake of the top ban or could they still be playable with other cards?

For example Mirri's Guile? While it doesn't function like top (either in terms of instantly rearranging to counter, or instantly drawing your wrath) it can set up some roadblocks for people to play around a counterbalance and still ensure that your wraths are only 1 mana. If you don't want to play green, perhaps Soothsaying? It is not as mana efficient and also can't draw a card, but it does pitch to FOW.

AKA, while some are celebrating the death of Miracles, and while others are mourning its demise, is their a hope or fear for miracles to be reconstructed - weaker, perhaps much much weaker - but still alive? Or at least some of it's famous interactions like the cheap wrath and angels or counter-top(lite).

[Hanni]

The Miracles could see play in a fringe tier 2 or worse Scroll Rack / Land Tax type of Wx control deck, but Counterbalance is pretty much worthless now.

[PirateKing]

Scroll Rack can set your library in order, even with cards from hand. Can't draw a card itself, but since it doesn't actually draw cards, you can use it on your opponent's turn and then draw a miracle with some other effect. Fun to use alongside Land Tax to dig 8+ cards at a time. I wouldn't consider it with Counterbalance though.

[lavafrogg]

UW control will exist in some form or another, be it stoneblade/landstill/new miracles, and the cards will be tested in whatever new shell emerges.

Is counterbalance good when it is not a variable Chalice of the Void? Probably not, but it was never meant to completely lock down a format.

Will terminus be played when it isn't always 1 mana and at instant speed? Probably not, but it was supposed to be a big deal when a miracle happened, not an every time occurance. I have more hope for terminus, as brainstorm is still super strong and wraths fir 1 are good no matter when you play them. You will just be a little safer on your own turn.

[maharis]

4 Brainstorm and X Jace... seems like Terminus is a perfectly fine two-of in control decks. You still have swords-snap-swords and other removal/wraths.

Unban Drain and Terminus gets a lot better.

[Richard Cheese]

IMO Terminus is still worth running, although possibly not as a full set. Guarantee it will still see play in control decks, because it the effect is just so much more powerful than any other sweeper. Those decks will still have access to Brainstorm/Jace/Ponder, and Scroll Rack, like others are mentioning.

[CutthroatCasual]

BUG-colors, Delver, various Combo, and Blood Moon. Something like that...

Basically, the metagame lost 2 or 3 decks, and nothing new will take their place.

[Ellomdian]

Where you see a shadowy cabal bent on taking the fun out of magic I see a limited design principle that makes commons less complex and has zero effect on legacy B&R announcements. You can scapegoat Maro all you want but you are reaching when blaming NWO for the top ban. Like that article mentioned at every possible chance, NWO is about set design, not B&R methodology which we know very little concrete about.

I don't see a 'Shadowy Cabal bent on taking the fun out of Magic.' I see a series of banning with thematically inconsistent justification even within the same Announcement. 'Top has been a problem for years, so we're killing it because we don't want to police slow play in Vegas. Also you'd better stop making Standard boring or we'll ban something else!' Forsythe literally calls out the primary action for BnR consideration being player feedback on his Twitter, but that's not enough to do something about Standard right now? I'm sure it has nothing to do with the absolutely terrible optics that would come from consecutive Standard bannings, because letting something juiced through every once in a while is fine, but acknowledging that they can't seem to control the format like they would prefer to is not.

In the last year, just for Standard, they've acknowledged that their aggressive rotation plan was terrible, they've had to ban multiple cards from different decks, and they are dealing with an upset playerbase calling for bans *AGAIN*. The last time they couldn't control something like this was in 2011 with JTMS and Stoneforge. It's been low-hanging fruit for years to kvetch about the way they manage Modern - when they fuck up Standard this badly, it raises concerns that maybe someone in charge doesn't know what they are doing. If they could kindly keep their mitts off the actual Eternal formats until they can figure out what's going wrong, it would raise less worry.

[twndomn]

Legacy 2012, play proactive combos~!