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Thread: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

  1. #61
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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    I get the arguments about DRS being too strong, but I am so uneasy about the idea of banning a 1/2 creature with summoning sickness.

    I also think the raw power of other one-drops is underestimated. Mom and Lackey are the big ones, maybe also Goblin Welder. If DRS was gone and there was a metagame shift to bring those kinds of cards to the forefront, we would still be in the same position of "don't let them untap with this 1-drop"

    DRS's casting cost makes it flexible enough to be ubiquitous, and the printing of cards like Leovold that synergize with it amplify its power. But it's still a 1/2 creature that you have to untap with. And when you untap with it, it's not like the game is just over.

    Honestly I think Miracles did a lot more to speed up the format than DRS. People were trying to win before CB lock could get set up. And miracles dominated the late game so much that no other deck could compete in that space.

    Look what Reanimator became. I mean if there was ever a deck that should've feared DRS it was that... and instead they just Chancellor you and then play Griselbrand before you even draw a card.

    A greater variety of fair/long-game decks should be good for the format.

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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    I don't understand the complaints about WOTC bowing to social pressure. Why is it so bad if WOTC listened to their players? This is some backwards logic y'all are deploying.

    It's hard enough to get people into Legacy. This format is expensive as fuck.

    Y'all should be happy for every warm body at your tournaments. Miracles was boring. Miracles was a net loss for fun. I don't care if you loved it. More people hated it.

    If player complaints led to it being banned, then you should be glad! That means more players will show up to your events. More nerds for you to slay. More games for you to play. So what if they aren't all amazing players? What makes you so great? What have you been winning? If you're such a baller, then you should be happy to face against a scrub. That's free money right there.

    Edit - maybe this was the wrong thread for this post.
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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    Very much agreed with Dan. If you wanna see the difference between a local Miracles hero and an actual Legacy juggernaut, look no further than Joe's take on things.
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  4. #64

    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    I agree with catmint on questioning how potent DRS actually is, especially as a Delver player. Consider how DRS actually fits into a BUG Delver list- you're still on tempo and playing to kill the opponent on a super low curve before they can play anything meaningful. Base premise is still basically old canadian thresh. DRS does almost none of what that deck wants to actually do:

    -DRS ramps for more expensive spells that we don't play
    -Stabilizes mana against the wasteland mirror (super useful)
    -Shuts out degenerate strategies that the deck destroys anyway
    -Is an awful clock. Yeah the -2 is nice if you're going long. We don't want to go long.
    -Keeps our bad MUs bad. Think how good DRS is vs goblins, smallpox, etc. It sucks.
    -It eats mana like crazy and encourages playing more lands in a deck that happily runs off 2 and shuffles the rest back.

    Delver fundamentally requires very few creatures for more flip chances to begin with. So you have like 12 creature spots, Delver and Goyf/Pyro aren't going anywhere. Shaman is NOT a great fit for those last 4 cards. Unless my hand was way soft to Wasteland, I would basically jam first turn Delver between the two every time, since more turns to swing for 3 is really, really good in a deck based around killing the opponent.

    Is the card powerful? Undeniably. But that doesn't give license to put it into every B/G list and call it. Legacy is a format where you can overpower someone with anything, and in a similar sense not every blue deck needs say Ponder (looking at you, Miracles). I don't see the card as even close to problematic, let alone banworthy. I pretty much agree with whoever said the article was click bait.

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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    A lot of people don't want to play legacy because it has a reputation as a broken fast combo format. With Miracles gone, that is going to be far more true than it was before.

    Maharis - Miracles did not speed up the format, it pushed most t1/2/3 combo decks out of t1. This allowed space for decks that don't win in the first 3 turns. Its effect on the format can't be limited to 'games you play against Miracles' - it warped the format as a whole, and IMO it was in a positive direction. But I like Magic games that go longer than 3 turns.

  6. #66

    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    Quote Originally Posted by danyul View Post
    I don't understand the complaints about WOTC bowing to social pressure. Why is it so bad if WOTC listened to their players? This is some backwards logic y'all are deploying.

    It's hard enough to get people into Legacy. This format is expensive as fuck.

    Y'all should be happy for every warm body at your tournaments. Miracles was boring. Miracles was a net loss for fun. I don't care if you loved it. More people hated it.

    If player complaints led to it being banned, then you should be glad! That means more players will show up to your events. More nerds for you to slay. More games for you to play. So what if they aren't all amazing players? What makes you so great? What have you been winning? If you're such a baller, then you should be happy to face against a scrub. That's free money right there.

    Edit - maybe this was the wrong thread for this post.
    I agree with your post, and I don't even think WotC was in any way pressured by players on this. People have been calling for a top ban (or at least a miracles nerf) for years and they didn't make any changes. I fully believe the reasons were the ones given, that it had been too good for too long and it slows down tournaments.

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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    A lot of people don't want to play legacy because it has a reputation as a broken fast combo format. With Miracles gone, that is going to be far more true than it was before.
    And yet that was far from being the case even before Miracles became a deck. People, especially those who only really came into Legacy during the last ~5 years, way overestimate the influence of Miracles on the pressence of fast combo.
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
    1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
    2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    A lot of people don't want to play legacy because it has a reputation as a broken fast combo format. With Miracles gone, that is going to be far more true than it was before.
    I don't buy the idea that Miracles was policing combo. Delver can do that just fine. And Delver will return in force.

    A lot of people didn't want to play Legacy because it had a reputation of being the home of the most boring deck of all time, Miracles. Why buy into a format just to watch some other dork durdle for 50 minutes? With Miracles gone, players will return. I count myself among those players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    I agree with your post, and I don't even think WotC was in any way pressured by players on this. People have been calling for a top ban (or at least a miracles nerf) for years and they didn't make any changes. I fully believe the reasons were the ones given, that it had been too good for too long and it slows down tournaments.
    Forsythe said on twitter that they were considering, at least partially, player complaints when it came to the ban. I don't really take their explanations on the official article at face value, although that's probably a fine reason to ban something IMO.
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  9. #69

    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    Quote Originally Posted by danyul View Post
    I don't buy the idea that Miracles was policing combo. Delver can do that just fine. And Delver will return in force.

    A lot of people didn't want to play Legacy because it had a reputation of being the home of the most boring deck of all time, Miracles. Why buy into a format just to watch some other dork durdle for 50 minutes? With Miracles gone, players will return. I count myself among those players.
    There is also an unfortunate many people who think of two things when you say legacy: Belcher, and $$$$.
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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    A lot of people don't want to play legacy because it has a reputation as a broken fast combo format. With Miracles gone, that is going to be far more true than it was before.

    Maharis - Miracles did not speed up the format, it pushed most t1/2/3 combo decks out of t1. This allowed space for decks that don't win in the first 3 turns. Its effect on the format can't be limited to 'games you play against Miracles' - it warped the format as a whole, and IMO it was in a positive direction. But I like Magic games that go longer than 3 turns.
    What? Delver just as good if not better than Miracles at keeping combo suppressed. All Miracles really did was make any non super fast combo not viable. If what you are saying was true then why was Belcher/Dredge/Storm/Reanimator not completely dominating the format before miracles existed? This is pure lunacy.
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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    What? Delver just as good if not better than Miracles at keeping combo suppressed. All Miracles really did was make any non super fast combo not viable. If what you are saying was true then why was Belcher/Dredge/Storm/Reanimator not completely dominating the format before miracles existed? This is pure lunacy.
    I'm pretty sure that countermagic, graveyard hate and general purpose combo hate didn't exist before miracles became a deck. /s
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    My original post did that.

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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    What? Delver just as good if not better than Miracles at keeping combo suppressed. All Miracles really did was make any non super fast combo not viable. If what you are saying was true then why was Belcher/Dredge/Storm/Reanimator not completely dominating the format before miracles existed? This is pure lunacy.
    Yeah, even in our small local metagame, all our Storm players moved on, even though we only really had one Miracles player (and he was one of the players who would play Storm from time to time). A fair portion of the meta overall is hostile to Storm. Even Death and Taxes is no slouch versus Storm now, provided they don't turn 1/2 you.
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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    And yet that was far from being the case even before Miracles became a deck. People, especially those who only really came into Legacy during the last ~5 years, way overestimate the influence of Miracles on the pressence of fast combo.
    Its quite ironical that Counterbalance + SDT and Ancient Tomb + Chalice were often the fastest "I win" combos in the format
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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    I have been playing a lot of storm on MTGO the past few months just for a break from my paper collection which is mostly midrange nonsense.

    I never felt that CB & Top was the threat out of Miracles. Usually storm was fast enough to win before it came down, or win through it if they only had limited stuff floating. Once storm added Decay to the maindeck it was even easier because you could Decay CB end of turn then go off.

    I also played Miracles for a time in paper and lost with CB & Top on board a couple times for the same reason. You can only float so much stuff and activate top so many times.

    But post-board when the Flusterstorms and Surgicals came in, the matchup was harder. In the same way, it's way harder to beat Sea->Deathrite->Go and a grip full of countermagic. The clock is important.

    Miracles didn't stop any combo decks from succeeding with the right adaptations. The No. 2 deck the day SDT was banned was Sneak & Show. Reanimator was winning on turn 0.5. Storm was OK. The idea that only Miracles was stopping degenerate combos is incorrect. The only reason it could was because it was so good against fair decks that it could overload for combo in games 2 & 3 and make CB/Top more relevant by getting to a later point in the game.

    Combo decks do not want to face a clock + interaction, which is more likely now that there will be more fair decks that aren't trying to win or lock you out before turn 3. They'll likely adapt to the new meta, but the games should be good and interactive.

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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    I have been playing a lot of storm on MTGO the past few months just for a break from my paper collection which is mostly midrange nonsense.

    I never felt that CB & Top was the threat out of Miracles. Usually storm was fast enough to win before it came down, or win through it if they only had limited stuff floating. Once storm added Decay to the maindeck it was even easier because you could Decay CB end of turn then go off.

    I also played Miracles for a time in paper and lost with CB & Top on board a couple times for the same reason. You can only float so much stuff and activate top so many times.

    But post-board when the Flusterstorms and Surgicals came in, the matchup was harder. In the same way, it's way harder to beat Sea->Deathrite->Go and a grip full of countermagic. The clock is important.

    Miracles didn't stop any combo decks from succeeding with the right adaptations. The No. 2 deck the day SDT was banned was Sneak & Show. Reanimator was winning on turn 0.5. Storm was OK. The idea that only Miracles was stopping degenerate combos is incorrect. The only reason it could was because it was so good against fair decks that it could overload for combo in games 2 & 3 and make CB/Top more relevant by getting to a later point in the game.

    Combo decks do not want to face a clock + interaction, which is more likely now that there will be more fair decks that aren't trying to win or lock you out before turn 3. They'll likely adapt to the new meta, but the games should be good and interactive.
    Agreed. Do you think TES will make a comeback, or at least maindeck Silence replacing Decay now that Counterbalance is gone, or is Chalice enough of a permanent fixture that Decay is here to stay as well?
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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    Very much agreed with Dan. If you wanna see the difference between a local Miracles hero and an actual Legacy juggernaut, look no further than Joe's take on things.
    At first, I was angry, hurt, and upset, but after thinking about it and speaking with Anuraag, I've mostly resolved myself to the decision and am looking ahead. Legacy is always going to be the best format and the writing was honestly on the wall with all of the work we were putting into the archetype. It became more and more vocal as more and more people picked up the deck and then, like a hammer, the ban finally happened. I am no longer angry or upset. I am going to put my effort towards other things, such as maybe seeing if there IS a control deck that can fill that void if possible. If not, I'll play a new deck, so on and so forth.

    I do NOT want Legacy to become what modern is, a barren wasteland where people are afraid to play or buy decks, or to work on decks to make them better, in fear of banning. I understand that DRS is ubiquitous in most of the format, but I don't really care that much, I would rather simply allow Legacy to continue self regulating. If something becomes too good, there will be outcry, rebellion, and lashing out and it'll be gone eventually. So it goes.

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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    Agreed. Do you think TES will make a comeback, or at least maindeck Silence replacing Decay now that Counterbalance is gone, or is Chalice enough of a permanent fixture that Decay is here to stay as well?
    TES has less issues with DRS than ANT, but that means nothing at this point, as the meta isn't settled down yet. Silence in TES is dead since 2013 when people started to run variable hate. Chalice can get handled with blue bounce
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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    There have been two deck killing bans in 7 years. Survival and Top (the bans of Misstep and the retarded delve spells don't count because they were clearly busted and didn't kill off complete archetypes) were both very very powerful cards that gained printings that made them extra dumb. Honestly if any card really is the next to be looked at it's probably Show and Tell, but that would have to put up some very good #'s to even be considered at this point. I guess we've never had a Griselbrand format without Miracles at least existing, but I think Show and Tell has enough of a downside that it would never reach the numbers miracles did for the long period of time that it did.

    Edit: forgot my original intent. The notion that Legacy might turn into modern where any best deck gets banned is dumb. Modern seems to see a ban at this point once a year and it's generally archetype killing or at least crippling bans. Legacy a deck has to be very dominant for a good amount of time a lot with the fact that we have so few large tourneys it's difficult for WOTC to assess the format at times.
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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    TES has less issues with DRS than ANT, but that means nothing at this point, as the meta isn't settled down yet. Silence in TES is dead since 2013 when people started to run variable hate. Chalice can get handled with blue bounce
    Sorry for double post, but I agree with this. The chalice decks generally run watseland so having to fetch out an off color dual to decay chalice feels super bad. I'd rather play more Hurkyll's, Rebuild, and Chain of Vapor now than decay if I were building storm. I also Personally think I might run a Karakas in the board of ANT again.
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    Re: [Article] Deathrite Is Next

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    Agreed. Do you think TES will make a comeback, or at least maindeck Silence replacing Decay now that Counterbalance is gone, or is Chalice enough of a permanent fixture that Decay is here to stay as well?
    I'm flattered that you would ask me haha. I'm terrible at storm still. But it is fun.

    I'm actually torn between keeping Decays in the board and playing Ancient Grudge. Many of the Chalice decks are also playing 3ball or Thorn now. I got destroyed by that Big Eldrazi deck the other day and had I been able to keep it off mana I would've been in better shape. Grudge also allows you to nuke Vial and Revoker with one card against D&T.

    Either way, I think green is still necessary because of Xantid Swarm, which I like a lot more now because you can probably count on a lot of UBx decks that are going to try to clock you with a Delver or DRS. Forces them to leave in removal that's largely bad.

    Speaking of largely bad removal, I'm trying Bolt in my board. Hits all the little weenies that drive you nuts and can close things out in a pinch. Good against Leovold. Hasn't come up yet though.

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