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Thread: You can erase 1 card from the game: which?

  1. #61

    Re: You can erase 1 card from the game: which?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau View Post
    I'll never forget the day they printed Show and Tell. Made me quit Legacy for 2+ years. Only now does it feel like a stable format again.
    At the time of its printing, Show and Tell was only really used for dropping a Dream Halls into play (later used for Yawgmoth's Bargain after it got printed), but Dream Halls and Yawgmoth's Bargain both got banned within a year so I don't know why you took 2 years off.

  2. #62
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    Re: You can erase 1 card from the game: which?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau View Post
    I'll never forget the day they printed Show and Tell. Made me quit Legacy for 2+ years. Only now does it feel like a stable format again.
    the heck you talking about? Show and Tell was a bulk rare for years.

  3. #63
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    Re: You can erase 1 card from the game: which?

    #1 Show and Tell
    #2 Emrakul

    Either one of those 2 really, there's nothing fun into T1 Emrakul go ahead and play your land into 1 drop that wont matter ugh.
    It just feels like im losing from a chimp deck.

    S&T into Omniscience into cunning wish/Emrakul is even worse as it finishes the game on the spot. (nice karakas mate)

    I would be complaining less about S&T without emrakul or omniscience, at least with griselbrand you feel like having a chance. Yes they draw 14 cards, yes its extremely likely they get to have a hand full of counterspell backup + fatty 2/3, but I can live with that kinda stuff. At least Grisel is a 3 turn clock, can be stalled with flyers, removed, bounced with karakas, activated ability can be shutdown etc etc.

    Emrakul is just not a fun card to play against, the only time *I feel* its ''allowed'' is after durdling 7-10 turns with my Enchantress deck to hardcast it, as the opponent had a chance spread over multiple turns to kill me before I cast the damn thing.

  4. #64
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    Re: You can erase 1 card from the game: which?

    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthepit View Post
    Ding, ding, ding!

    If I wanted to make the format more interactive, I would ban the following:
    1. Every Eldrazi besides Displacer
    2. Show and Tell
    3. Griselbrand
    4. True-Name Nemesis

    There are no reason for those cards to exist. Everything else that contributes to occasionally miserable experiences (e.g. Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void) at least punish greedy deckbuilding.
    I like these choices. I agree that these cards are all frustrating and don't typically make for the best games. Especially Show and Tell + [insert random EDH Timmy I-WIN card here] -- and I'd argue that Omniscience is essentially just as bad as Emrakul and Griselbrand. I realize that there are plenty of ways to fight against SNT, and the deck is NOT an unstoppable Tier 0 problem... but netting 15 mana for 2 puts a lot of stupid constraints on the format, particularly for non-Blue decks.

    The Eldrazi are dumb in tandem with the Sol lands. I just think that they're not very well designed, and Thought Knot Seer is a good example of needless ham-fisted power creep.

    TNN would probably be okay if it cost 1WW or 1GW and was some other creature type. It just doesn't seem to make sense for this guy to be Blue. Blue-based Aggro-control really didn't need yet *another* Wall/Finisher hybrid to crap on non-Blue creature decks (Tarmogoyf being the original example). I think it'd be fine to give Wx creature decks a hard-to-kill threat as a way to attack control and midrange decks.

    A few other tweaks I'd recommend for balance:

    A) Leovold should've cost instead of BUG. This would have given non-Blue decks like Maverick and Junk a method of fighting Blue and various forms of Combo that isn't just (easily) adopted by Blue decks themselves.
    B) Delver of Secrets should've cost either or instead of U. Flavor-wise, this card makes more sense as either of those colors. It would still be played in Blue tempo decks, but it'd require a bit more work to maintain a high enough Blue-count for Force of Will.
    C) Deathrite Shaman should have only 1 toughness, and probably also have 0 power. This would balance it better against creatures such as Goblin Lackey, as well as make it more susceptible to various hate cards (e.g. Darkblast; Forked Bolt; Electrickery; Engineered Plague, etc.) And yet it'd *still* be arguably better than Birds of Paradise as a 0/1.
    D) Fetch-lands -- I'm ambivalent about removing them entirely, but perhaps they should've been capable of searching up *only* basic lands. I wonder if the designers at the time were even considering their interaction with Dual lands? More thought would be put into designing a deck's manabase, and 3-color decks would be a bit weaker and thus more balanced. I think the game is conceptually designed to make it so that there's supposed to be an actual opportunity cost to playing more than one color. Perhaps this adjustment would make it so that 2-color decks would be a more legitimate consideration?
    E) Counterbalance is mostly a non-issue now that SDT is banned, however I think that this card should be nerfed a bit: either it could cost a tad more (1UU maybe?) or alternatively, it's ability could only be triggered once per turn. In the latter case, it'd still function as a powerful control element with the potential of generating long-term card advantage and inevitability, and deploying multiple copies would then be meaningful instead of (typically) needlessly redundant.
    F) Batterskull -- perhaps the bounce cost should be 5 instead of 3? And does it also need to grant Vigilance?
    G) Umezawa's Jitte -- given that it's arguably more powerful than the various Swords of X&Y, maybe Jitte should follow their pattern and cost to play and/or only trigger its token generation upon inflicting combat damage **to a player**.
    H) Brainstorm as Sorcery would still be powerful, widely played and format-defining, yet it would make the card a LOT weaker. Players would need to plan for their opponent's turn in advance instead of in reaction to whatever action they take, and discard spells such as Thoughtseize would be made quite a bit more powerful. I think it being an Instant is a HUGE aspect of why the card is so busted.
    I) Tarmogoyf -- I don't think most players are too concerned about ol' Goof anymore, but there are several methods I can think of to better balance him: one is to make him an X/X instead of X/X+1; another is to look at *only* its owner's graveyard in terms of determining the value of X. Another way would be to re-balance his cost as GG or instead of 1G, making him still easily playable in the sort of the decks that want him, yet a bit harder to splash elsewhere.
    J) Jace, the Mind Sculptor: his Brainstorm ability should definitely have been -1 Loyalty instead of costing 0; his Fateseal ability should perhaps have been only +1 Loyalty *or* his Ultimate should have been removed entirely or changed to something less absurd.
    K) Snapcaster Mage:
    L) Monastery Mentor: perhaps the tokens could be 0/1 with prowess or 1/1 without it. Alternatively, adjust the cost: 1WW or perhaps 3W. It still seems like it'd be an absurdly powerful card.

    Just a few ideas, feel free to disagree. Legacy is obviously based around design mistakes, and part of the charm is playing busted cards against other busted cards. Still, I think some of the ideas presented above might make for a slightly better balanced format. For most of these suggestions I tried to keep the card competitively playable while still knocking it down a few notches.

    edit:

    If I could straight up just delete a single card, I think it'd be Gitaxian Probe. It's not broken by any means; it just bends a few rules of the game that should require a few more hoops to jump through to achieve: it's blue, it costs no mana to cycle yet still generates storm, and it provides perfect information. I don't really like what it's done for combo decks in Legacy, mainly defeating all sense of drama during the critical turn.
    Last edited by wcm8; 05-08-2017 at 02:38 PM.

  5. #65

    Re: You can erase 1 card from the game: which?

    I've always hated Griselbrand, Emrakul and Blightsteel Colossus to a lesser extent. Creatures with text that amounts to "you win" in a game full of ways to cheat creatures into play make games significantly less interesting.

    Furthermore, to me it seems ridiculous that Bargain is banned, but easier-to-cheat-in Bargain with upside is alright.

  6. #66

    Re: You can erase 1 card from the game: which?

    Quote Originally Posted by WashableWater1 View Post
    Furthermore, to me it seems ridiculous that Bargain is banned, but easier-to-cheat-in Bargain with upside is alright.
    But forcing you to draw 7/pay 7 life in one batch is THE downside
    ikr..

  7. #67
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    Re: You can erase 1 card from the game: which?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Miagi View Post
    But forcing you to draw 7/pay 7 life in one batch is THE downside
    ikr..
    Luckily he has lifelink to compensate, otherwise that immense downside would be too much and make the card almost unplayable !
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Non games are not only a common sight in Legacy, they are every decks plan. [...] Playing a deck like DnT and then complaining about "Non games" is hypocritical, because non games are your plan, you just disapprove of the way someone else is trying to achieve that same goal.

  8. #68
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    Re: You can erase 1 card from the game: which?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Miagi View Post
    But forcing you to draw 7/pay 7 life in one batch is THE downside
    ikr..
    B-b-b-but R&D tested the card at 7 mana and found it was too big of a problem. 8 mana is totally not broken!!
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  9. #69
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    Re: You can erase 1 card from the game: which?

    Quote Originally Posted by wcm8 View Post
    I like these choices. I agree that these cards are all frustrating and don't typically make for the best games. Especially Show and Tell + [insert random EDH Timmy I-WIN card here] -- and I'd argue that Omniscience is essentially just as bad as Emrakul and Griselbrand. I realize that there are plenty of ways to fight against SNT, and the deck is NOT an unstoppable Tier 0 problem... but netting 15 mana for 2 puts a lot of stupid constraints on the format, particularly for non-Blue decks.

    The Eldrazi are dumb in tandem with the Sol lands. I just think that they're not very well designed, and Thought Knot Seer is a good example of needless ham-fisted power creep.

    TNN would probably be okay if it cost 1WW or 1GW and was some other creature type. It just doesn't seem to make sense for this guy to be Blue. Blue-based Aggro-control really didn't need yet *another* Wall/Finisher hybrid to crap on non-Blue creature decks (Tarmogoyf being the original example). I think it'd be fine to give Wx creature decks a hard-to-kill threat as a way to attack control and midrange decks.

    A few other tweaks I'd recommend for balance:

    A) Leovold should've cost instead of BUG. This would have given non-Blue decks like Maverick and Junk a method of fighting Blue and various forms of Combo that isn't just (easily) adopted by Blue decks themselves.
    B) Delver of Secrets should've cost either or instead of U. Flavor-wise, this card makes more sense as either of those colors. It would still be played in Blue tempo decks, but it'd require a bit more work to maintain a high enough Blue-count for Force of Will.
    C) Deathrite Shaman should have only 1 toughness, and probably also have 0 power. This would balance it better against creatures such as Goblin Lackey, as well as make it more susceptible to various hate cards (e.g. Darkblast; Forked Bolt; Electrickery; Engineered Plague, etc.) And yet it'd *still* be arguably better than Birds of Paradise as a 0/1.
    D) Fetch-lands -- I'm ambivalent about removing them entirely, but perhaps they should've been capable of searching up *only* basic lands. I wonder if the designers at the time were even considering their interaction with Dual lands? More thought would be put into designing a deck's manabase, and 3-color decks would be a bit weaker and thus more balanced. I think the game is conceptually designed to make it so that there's supposed to be an actual opportunity cost to playing more than one color. Perhaps this adjustment would make it so that 2-color decks would be a more legitimate consideration?
    E) Counterbalance is mostly a non-issue now that SDT is banned, however I think that this card should be nerfed a bit: either it could cost a tad more (1UU maybe?) or alternatively, it's ability could only be triggered once per turn. In the latter case, it'd still function as a powerful control element with the potential of generating long-term card advantage and inevitability, and deploying multiple copies would then be meaningful instead of (typically) needlessly redundant.
    F) Batterskull -- perhaps the bounce cost should be 5 instead of 3? And does it also need to grant Vigilance?
    G) Umezawa's Jitte -- given that it's arguably more powerful than the various Swords of X&Y, maybe Jitte should follow their pattern and cost to play and/or only trigger its token generation upon inflicting combat damage **to a player**.
    H) Brainstorm as Sorcery would still be powerful, widely played and format-defining, yet it would make the card a LOT weaker. Players would need to plan for their opponent's turn in advance instead of in reaction to whatever action they take, and discard spells such as Thoughtseize would be made quite a bit more powerful. I think it being an Instant is a HUGE aspect of why the card is so busted.
    I) Tarmogoyf -- I don't think most players are too concerned about ol' Goof anymore, but there are several methods I can think of to better balance him: one is to make him an X/X instead of X/X+1; another is to look at *only* its owner's graveyard in terms of determining the value of X. Another way would be to re-balance his cost as GG or instead of 1G, making him still easily playable in the sort of the decks that want him, yet a bit harder to splash elsewhere.
    J) Jace, the Mind Sculptor: his Brainstorm ability should definitely have been -1 Loyalty instead of costing 0; his Fateseal ability should perhaps have been only +1 Loyalty *or* his Ultimate should have been removed entirely or changed to something less absurd.
    K) Snapcaster Mage:
    L) Monastery Mentor: perhaps the tokens could be 0/1 with prowess or 1/1 without it. Alternatively, adjust the cost: 1WW or perhaps 3W. It still seems like it'd be an absurdly powerful card.

    Just a few ideas, feel free to disagree. Legacy is obviously based around design mistakes, and part of the charm is playing busted cards against other busted cards. Still, I think some of the ideas presented above might make for a slightly better balanced format. For most of these suggestions I tried to keep the card competitively playable while still knocking it down a few notches.

    edit:

    If I could straight up just delete a single card, I think it'd be Gitaxian Probe. It's not broken by any means; it just bends a few rules of the game that should require a few more hoops to jump through to achieve: it's blue, it costs no mana to cycle yet still generates storm, and it provides perfect information. I don't really like what it's done for combo decks in Legacy, mainly defeating all sense of drama during the critical turn.
    I agree.

  10. #70

    Re: You can erase 1 card from the game: which?

    Quote Originally Posted by wcm8 View Post
    I like these choices. I agree that these cards are all frustrating and don't typically make for the best games. Especially Show and Tell + [insert random EDH Timmy I-WIN card here] -- and I'd argue that Omniscience is essentially just as bad as Emrakul and Griselbrand. I realize that there are plenty of ways to fight against SNT, and the deck is NOT an unstoppable Tier 0 problem... but netting 15 mana for 2 puts a lot of stupid constraints on the format, particularly for non-Blue decks.

    The Eldrazi are dumb in tandem with the Sol lands. I just think that they're not very well designed, and Thought Knot Seer is a good example of needless ham-fisted power creep.

    TNN would probably be okay if it cost 1WW or 1GW and was some other creature type. It just doesn't seem to make sense for this guy to be Blue. Blue-based Aggro-control really didn't need yet *another* Wall/Finisher hybrid to crap on non-Blue creature decks (Tarmogoyf being the original example). I think it'd be fine to give Wx creature decks a hard-to-kill threat as a way to attack control and midrange decks.

    A few other tweaks I'd recommend for balance:

    A) Leovold should've cost instead of BUG. This would have given non-Blue decks like Maverick and Junk a method of fighting Blue and various forms of Combo that isn't just (easily) adopted by Blue decks themselves.
    B) Delver of Secrets should've cost either or instead of U. Flavor-wise, this card makes more sense as either of those colors. It would still be played in Blue tempo decks, but it'd require a bit more work to maintain a high enough Blue-count for Force of Will.
    C) Deathrite Shaman should have only 1 toughness, and probably also have 0 power. This would balance it better against creatures such as Goblin Lackey, as well as make it more susceptible to various hate cards (e.g. Darkblast; Forked Bolt; Electrickery; Engineered Plague, etc.) And yet it'd *still* be arguably better than Birds of Paradise as a 0/1.
    D) Fetch-lands -- I'm ambivalent about removing them entirely, but perhaps they should've been capable of searching up *only* basic lands. I wonder if the designers at the time were even considering their interaction with Dual lands? More thought would be put into designing a deck's manabase, and 3-color decks would be a bit weaker and thus more balanced. I think the game is conceptually designed to make it so that there's supposed to be an actual opportunity cost to playing more than one color. Perhaps this adjustment would make it so that 2-color decks would be a more legitimate consideration?
    E) Counterbalance is mostly a non-issue now that SDT is banned, however I think that this card should be nerfed a bit: either it could cost a tad more (1UU maybe?) or alternatively, it's ability could only be triggered once per turn. In the latter case, it'd still function as a powerful control element with the potential of generating long-term card advantage and inevitability, and deploying multiple copies would then be meaningful instead of (typically) needlessly redundant.
    F) Batterskull -- perhaps the bounce cost should be 5 instead of 3? And does it also need to grant Vigilance?
    G) Umezawa's Jitte -- given that it's arguably more powerful than the various Swords of X&Y, maybe Jitte should follow their pattern and cost to play and/or only trigger its token generation upon inflicting combat damage **to a player**.
    H) Brainstorm as Sorcery would still be powerful, widely played and format-defining, yet it would make the card a LOT weaker. Players would need to plan for their opponent's turn in advance instead of in reaction to whatever action they take, and discard spells such as Thoughtseize would be made quite a bit more powerful. I think it being an Instant is a HUGE aspect of why the card is so busted.
    I) Tarmogoyf -- I don't think most players are too concerned about ol' Goof anymore, but there are several methods I can think of to better balance him: one is to make him an X/X instead of X/X+1; another is to look at *only* its owner's graveyard in terms of determining the value of X. Another way would be to re-balance his cost as GG or instead of 1G, making him still easily playable in the sort of the decks that want him, yet a bit harder to splash elsewhere.
    J) Jace, the Mind Sculptor: his Brainstorm ability should definitely have been -1 Loyalty instead of costing 0; his Fateseal ability should perhaps have been only +1 Loyalty *or* his Ultimate should have been removed entirely or changed to something less absurd.
    K) Snapcaster Mage:
    L) Monastery Mentor: perhaps the tokens could be 0/1 with prowess or 1/1 without it. Alternatively, adjust the cost: 1WW or perhaps 3W. It still seems like it'd be an absurdly powerful card.

    Just a few ideas, feel free to disagree. Legacy is obviously based around design mistakes, and part of the charm is playing busted cards against other busted cards. Still, I think some of the ideas presented above might make for a slightly better balanced format. For most of these suggestions I tried to keep the card competitively playable while still knocking it down a few notches.

    edit:

    If I could straight up just delete a single card, I think it'd be Gitaxian Probe. It's not broken by any means; it just bends a few rules of the game that should require a few more hoops to jump through to achieve: it's blue, it costs no mana to cycle yet still generates storm, and it provides perfect information. I don't really like what it's done for combo decks in Legacy, mainly defeating all sense of drama during the critical turn.
    <3

    Seconded!

  11. #71

    Re: You can erase 1 card from the game: which?

    Quote Originally Posted by useless View Post
    luckily he has lifelink to compensate, otherwise that immense downside would be too much and make the card almost unplayable !
    why the fuck doesnt he make you skip your draw step

  12. #72

    Re: You can erase 1 card from the game: which?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    At the time of its printing, Show and Tell was only really used for dropping a Dream Halls into play (later used for Yawgmoth's Bargain after it got printed), but Dream Halls and Yawgmoth's Bargain both got banned within a year so I don't know why you took 2 years off.
    Don't forget Mind over Matter for your Tolarian Academy.

    I'm just getting back in from a long time off, so I've missed a lot but I'm just going to say planeswalkers as a whole, with the recent monster sized creatures as a close second (Marit Lage creators/combos, Elderazi, Emrakul, etc). Maybe the format is just faster now and can deal with these things on the next turn, I don't know. But I can usually deal with a 5/5 drop with no immediate response. I can't deal with a 13/13 time walker or whatever. Especially if it can't be countered, has protection from everything, shroud, no downside/upkeep for the owner, etc then what's the point? If there was a way to make them not be able to be cheated into play, then fine. But it just seems like an uncreative way to win or develop cards. Or I'm just bad at Magic, either one :).

    I do agree with what others have said about the fetchlands though.

    I wish the storm mechanic would have never been done.

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