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Thread: Elesh Norn... again

  1. #1

    Elesh Norn... again

    Player A has elesh norn, grand cenobite out, player B "casts" Flayer of the Hatebound from his/her graveyard.

    Is my understanding correct that flayer comes in as a 2/0, triggers his own ability, then dies when SBAs are checked? If this is the case, since flayer no longer in play, does the 2 damage still hit?
    Similarly, if an Ichorid comes into play once a Flayer is in, does it still deal 1 damage? It would technically leave play before doing so, which is the source of my confusion.

    Thanks.

  2. #2

    Re: Elesh Norn... again

    Quote Originally Posted by ronco View Post
    Player A has elesh norn, grand cenobite out, player B "casts" Flayer of the Hatebound from his/her graveyard.

    Is my understanding correct that flayer comes in as a 2/0, triggers his own ability, then dies when SBAs are checked? If this is the case, since flayer no longer in play, does the 2 damage still hit?
    Similarly, if an Ichorid comes into play once a Flayer is in, does it still deal 1 damage? It would technically leave play before doing so, which is the source of my confusion.

    Thanks.
    Yes to both.
    When the triggered ability resolves it will try to check the power of these creatures on the battlefield but find that they are not there anymore; the game will use last-known-information to determine the power of these creatures as they last existed on the battlefield.

    704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step’s first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.

    112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.

  3. #3

    Re: Elesh Norn... again

    Thanks for the response.

    A follow up question regarding the second point about this bit, thought no longer about the Flayer but just in general:
    "Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability.
    ...
    In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists."

    My understanding was if a source is no longer in play from an activated ability (say, Prodigal Pyromancer as mentioned gets lightning bolted in response), its ability would not resolve because it checks for it's source to be in play upon resolution. But this rule seems to imply that even if the pyromancer is bolted it will still be able to resolve its ability. What is the ruling on that?

    (sorry if that is a simple question).

  4. #4
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    Re: Elesh Norn... again

    Quote Originally Posted by ronco View Post
    My understanding was if a source is no longer in play from an activated ability (say, Prodigal Pyromancer as mentioned gets lightning bolted in response), its ability would not resolve because it checks for it's source to be in play upon resolution. But this rule seems to imply that even if the pyromancer is bolted it will still be able to resolve its ability. What is the ruling on that?

    (sorry if that is a simple question).
    That is not the case at all. There are very few things in the game that check to see if they are still in play at the resoulution of a trigger or ability and they are explicitly worded this way.

    For example, Animate Dead:

    Enchant creature card in a graveyard
    When Animate Dead enters the battlefield, if it's on the battlefield, it loses "enchant creature card in a graveyard" and gains "enchant creature put onto the battlefield with Animate Dead." Return enchanted creature card to the battlefield under your control and attach Animate Dead to it. When Animate Dead leaves the battlefield, that creature's controller sacrifices it.
    Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.
    If an ability is not specifically worded this way, the ability is completely independent of it's source.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  5. #5

    Re: Elesh Norn... again

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    That is not the case at all. There are very few things in the game that check to see if they are still in play at the resoulution of a trigger or ability and they are explicitly worded this way.

    For example, Animate Dead:



    If an ability is not specifically worded this way, the ability is completely independent of it's source.
    Yep, that's an "intervening if" clause.

    http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R6034
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  6. #6

    Re: Elesh Norn... again

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    Yep, that's an "intervening if" clause.

    http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R6034
    Couple of other relevant legacy examples would be Dark Depths and Goblin Welder.

  7. #7

    Re: Elesh Norn... again

    It would appear I have been doing this wrong for quite some time. Thank you for the clarifications!

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