Being a regular player of Tinfins, that list picked my fancy as soon as I saw it on reddit and went on to get the cards for it (those LEDs...) and sleeve it up. Played a 4-round weekly Legacy event yesterday and went 2-2, winning against Rb Goblins and UG Infect, and losing to a UW RipHelm combo (RIP main, RIP indeed) and a close match against Death and Taxes.
I played the original list - 5 swamps, -1 Thoughtseize + 1 Scrubland, +4 fetches, +1 Unburial rites as suggested by Jblinder above. Shameless plug: my list in picture on Instagram
The list
Creatures
1 Grave Titan
4 Griselbrand
2 Magus of the Will
Spells
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Entomb
2 Exhume
2 Corpse Dance
4 Shallow Grave
3 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
1 Unburial rites
3 Unmask
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
Land
10 Swamp
1 Polluted delta
2 Verdant catacombs
1 Bloodstained mire
1 Scrubland
Sideboard
2 Lake of the Dead
2 Swamp
3 Grave Titan
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Grim Monolith
Vs. Goblins
I lose the roll playing against a seasoned Goblins player, we both mull to 6 and I empty my hand on a T1 Unburial rites for a Grave Titan that seals the game rapidly despite being chomped by Mogg War Marshal tokens a few turns. I know Stingscourger is a card but I do not imagine he plays with more than one and he was not on track to do some rapid shennanigans like Lackey -> Matron for Stingscourger.
Time to reveal I have no clear sideboard plan going into any of my game-2s. I decide to edge on the hardcasting plan and know he will take some Surgical, Therapies, and Karakas against me.
Sideboard: -4 tutor, -2 entomb, -2 LED, -1 Magus, -2 Shallow grave +3 Grim monolith, +3 Grave titan, +2 Swamp, +2 Lakes, +2 Toxic deluge
I keep a 6 with a toxic deluge, a discard spell, and some mana that spells "hardcast the Titan in your hand". I scry my second toxic deluge to the bottom. He leads with a Lackey. My T1 discard takes a Surgical and reveals a Therapy but no Black mana. His lackey connects on T2 for a Warchief and plays a second Lackey, then proceeds to land a War Marshal the following turn and swing. I am at 11 life when I play the toxic deluge I had in hand. The next turn he blanks while I hardcast a Grave Titan for the win.
2-0
Vs. Death and Taxes - 1-0
I do not know this player and have no idea what he is on. I mull to 6 while he keeps his 7. I attempt to go off after a few turns and hits my main issue with this deck: Magus of the will having summoning sickness. I engage in a line of play with Petals and LEDs on the table, Griselbrand drawing cards, and going for Infernal -> Sac LED, take Magus and cast it... and that's it since I cannot activate it. I had no way to discard and reanimate it on the same turn. On hindsight the better play would have been to draw just the minimum with Griselbrand, play Infernal, sac LED, and continue drawing with Griselbrand. However I am not sure I didn't draw the Tutor in my last 7. Oh well. Children would have been forgiving here and done the trick while Magus did not. I eventually keep a good 7 and win in my following turn. My opponent wasted a Mom giving Pro Black to a Flickerwisp instead of keeping it up to save his Thalia the next turn from a Collective brutality. In the end it did not matter as I had the mana to crack a Magus and replay a LED for a Brutality for 3 mana but we agreed it was definitely a misplay.
New attempt at sideboarding. +2 Titan, +2 Toxic deluge, -2 Griselbrand, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Corpse Dance (4 mana under a Thalia sounds like a lot)
We both mull to 6 and I do not do anything that game. A Mirran Crusader helps him close the game fast while he plays a revoker on LED, blinking it with Flickerwisp for Griselbrand when he sees me binning one. gg
For Game 3 I bring back in Thoughtseize.
My discard spell rapidly shows me we both kept a one lander, but also that he has a triple Thalia and Canonist (and a Vial in play) so I decide to go for it before they land. I entomb an unburial rites, play my LEDs, sac and reanimate a Grave Titan. My opponent topdecks a Swords to plowshares. We stay at 1 land each for 4 turns while he lands two canonists and has a first strike 2/1 to my 2 2/2 zombies. I never draw back into the game.
1-2
Vs. UW RIPHelm combo 1-1
I was discussing with another player of his games and he mentioned a weird UW Land Tax RIP/Helm deck, playing humility to boot. This would not sound good unless I got to combo rapidly. I ask my opponent what match-ups he had so far, and he says infect, like that other player. Could it be him? (Spoiler alert: it was)
Game 1, we both keep 7 and he begins with land go. I see a hand of 2 dazes, 1 island, 2 plains, and take the brainstorm for now. I eventually do not manage to combo before RIP lands followed by Helm of Obedience for the combo win. His deck feel slow and durdly (Land tax and scroll rack?) so I need to combo fast. I also saw an Orim's chant this game, which can definitely slow me down until he plays a RIP. I decide to keep my main deck unchanged and go for a quick win.
We again both mull to 6 and I see he has only an Orim's chant in hand and lands. Looks good to me even though I won't be able to combo until T3. I start entombing Griselbee while he Orim's chants me so my Exhume is delayed. He plays a Detention Sphere on Griselbrand and like an idiot I forget to draw in response and move to take my turn. We draw cold for a while, which I could have easily hopped over by drawing 14 cards but nope... a real punt. Eventually RIP lands followed by Elspeth and he starts swinging for 4 damage a turn while I can only hope to hardcast something. I buy myself a turn by Collectively brutalizing a token but that is not enough.
0-2
Vs. UG Infect 1-2
Last match is against that infect player who won against my previous opponent in his first match, but coincidentally lost to my first opponent. Symmetry and coincidences sure are fun.
Game 1 see us both keep our 7 and he begins with a probe. His reaction is that he never got to play against Reanimator so he is looking forward to seeing how it plays out. Not that the deck is a typical Reanimator deck either (Corpse dance should give that away) but well... I rapidly look at his hand and see 2 Brainstorm, 1 Trop, 2 Nexus, I brutality the brainstorm and ping his Glistener elf away, discarding Magus (not the best first pick of course). His second brainstorm does not show him anything relevant and I combo before he builds a hand of counterspells (he mentioned running Flusterstorm main during our earlier banter).
Sideboard time: -4 Tut, -4 LED, -2 Magus, -1 Corpse, -1 ?, +2 Toxic deluge, +3 Grim monolith, +2 swamps, +2 lakes, +3 Grave titan
I fear his disruption package and opt out of the combo plan. Somehow I never felt like bringing for 4 monoliths as that feels like way too much.
Game 2, we both mull to 6 (how many times have I said this now?). I have a hand of land, ritual, Grim monolith, Grave titan so I am on the hardcasting plan it seems. He gets too work rapidly with a flying Nexus while I bait a spell pierce with my ritual on T2 instead of playing the monolith. He follows with a glistener elf. Playing around his counters I end up behind a turn to hardcast my titan. I will now be dead to poison in 2 turns and must chose between a topdecked Toxic for his Elf and Hierarch, keeping Nexus alive, or play a Grave Titan, or a Griselbrand. I opt for Toxic and die as expected.
Sideboarding time: (from main) -2 Tut, -1 Griselbrand, +2 Toxic deluge, +2 lakes (for 61 cards)
Game 3
I am on the play and mull to 5 after a 1-land do nothing hand, and a 6 flooded with mana. I keep 2 swamps, 1 brushland, 1 griselbrand, 1 unburial rites and hope it is good enough. I play a T2 brutality showing a Blighted agent, breeding pool, crop rotation, mindbreak trap, become immense and take the trap, discarding my combo cards and pinging his T1 hierarch. I missed that crop rotation could fetch a bojuka bog, which he does. The worst part is that we were discussing earlier how crop rotation can fetch silver bullets, like Bojuka bogs. Second punt of the evening.
I continue wrecking his hand the following turns and end up winning the game.
2-1
Result of the evening: 2-2
Quite a few mistakes on my side for the first evening with this deck but the list seems solid enough.
Grave titan performed better than I expected ; Magus of the will, worse so. Children of Korlis does not have summoning sickness so hardcasting it, reanimating it/exhuming it makes it live while Magus is not. Of course if you untap with Magus you should still be in good shape from your previous turn's attempt but it feels... less elegant and more frustrating when trying to combo off. Also who knows what happens during the next turn to your Magus or graveyard. You might end up being left with your 7 cards in hand only to work with, which would be similar to a fizzled Tinfins combo.
Unburial rites is definitely right in the main 60 since entombing for a reanimate spell that can be played off LED (which in turn might feed the yard with a creature) is just too good to pass. Fetch/scrubland might not even be needed since between LED and lotus a single white is not a problem. There might be a marginal benefit in not being wasted out of the game when keeping a one-lander of Scrubland, or not feeding an opposing DRS with fetches (although if DRS eats fetches it's not eating Griselbrand for now).
I have not tested taking in all 4 monoliths but feel they could lead to clunky draws and would rather have another card in the sideboard, e.g. Serenity if we are splashing white.
Recently, in a 209 Legacy side-event in Japan, a player, Nagahashi Ray, top8ed with this version of Griselstorm:
Creatures
2 Grave Titan
2 Griselbrand
1 Resolute Archangel
1 Skirge Familiar
//Spells
2 Animate Dead
1 Cabal Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Chrome Mox
4 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
2 Exhume
1 Grim Tutor
4 Lotus Petal
1 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
//Lands
15 Swamp
//Sideboard
2 Extirpate
1 Grave Titan
3 Grim Monolith
1 Karn Liberated
2 Lake of the Dead
1 Lost Legacy
1 Massacre
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
It completely leaves out the LED, Magus of the Will and infernal tutor pieces of the combo. What do you think, is this version thorough or just fitted to a specific metagame? And why did Nagahashi Ray not consider those cards?
Thank you for your feedback. Very interesting! I do indeed share your thoughts on the presence of Magus of the Will in the deck. It seems like too heavy and too mana demanding for the deck. And it will attract any creature hate the opponent plausibly has in hand once it touches the board, making him pretty useless.
Originally Posted by BaroqueW
I want to try this list. Need to get the skirge familiar etc. though.
We cannot really conclude that Ray did not consider Tutor or Magus, they might have and decided against it. Magus, Tutor, LED really go hand in hand so cutting one seems synonymous with cutting them all.
What bothers me a bit more is the Resolute Archangel over Children of Korlis. It's non repeatable life gain and indicates you'd be happy drawing "only" 28 cards or so? (14, Archangel, 14 again) I remember needing to go longer than that with Children, even if not going for the Emrakul kill. Archangel seems to point at the beatdown direction, or as a way to reset the clock on an aggressive opponent (similar to a mini tendrils minus the damage to the opponent, and something Children can't do if your opponent is hitting you repeatedly) via an Animate Dead for a 3/4 flying (not too shabby but i'd rather get a Grave titan back that way) or skipping the body with a Shallow grave.
Skirge is more interesting. It does turn your 14 or 28 cards into almost as much mana (how many lands do you draw in those? something like 95% of hitting at least 4 in 28 cards after a couple of land drops if I am not mistaken) to cast some spells before tendril. Worthy to note that Skirge's ability does not suffer from summoning sickness like Magus'. Even if you don't get there binning your hand for mana, you should be able to cast a good number of discard spells to wreck your opponent's hand and set yourself up for your next turn.
Well I tested the exact list online, and the resolute archangel turns out to be pretty good. Reanimating her with Shallow Grave gives you the edge to draw twice again with Griselbrand, then attack. On numerous occasion her body allowed me to kill a planeswalker. And then in 2nd main phase, you can sacrifice her to Cabal Therapy, re-reanimate her and so on. Her "body advantage" is actually worth being taken into account, when you're not on white to cast CoK anyway, and you are not able to be lethal in one turn. It happened when for example the 1of Tendrils was pitched on Unmask or situational stuff like that.
Skirge is great indeed, but only useful when you go for the combo-Tendril kill.
The great fun-part of this deck is its ability to evolve in a hard-cast scary creatures and planeswalkers after side. After playing a bit, I made a few changes in the list. I added a third Griselbrand over the 1of Reanimate, in order to be more resilient when you're relying on drawing creatures. And took out the 2 extirpate to add the 4th Grim Monolith and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. As I always side out the Skirge and the Angel when going for the ramp plan, it felt low on stuff to hardcast, since you only have the Grim Tutor to tutor them when not in hand.
All around this monoblack list feels great, but I did not play enough matches to gather meaningful data, in order to enhance the deck, or make a first-shot at a sort-of primer. All-around, all matchups rely heavily on winning game 1. If you win game 1, then you can go for Ramp plan, which is much more versatile, confidently, and after having had a glance at what Graveyard hate your opponent brought in, either stick to Ramp plan or go back to the Combo plan. On the play, it feels usually better to go for the Combo play either way, if your opponent do not play Leylines.
It feels like the deck can be much, much more thorough and has a good margin for evolving into an actually pretty competitive deck. I'm thinking of bringing it a local tournament (40+ players). I'll start from there to take notes and start scratching some sideboard guides and general ideas. If any of you is also on the try for this deck, it would be great to hear from your experiences, and adapt the deck to its strength/weaknesses.
Hi All,
Thanks for this fascinating thread. I really like the look of this deck. I've recently been running Tinfins and Reanimator Depths (based around testing/guidance of Jblinder) and was wondering whether anyone had considered a Dark Depths s/b plan for this deck? Something like:
Dark Depths x4
Thespian Stage x4
Vampire Hexmage x4
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth x3
For the s/b game you would simply side out the reanimation spells/strategy. This should leave you with two win cons (ramp to hard cast creatures and dark depths). I'm going to put this together myself over the next few weeks and try it out. I'd be happy to post back my results.
Cheers,
Z
Edit: did not see the posts above on my phone for some reason.
Did anyone try this? Skirge seems amazing. Hard casting emmy also is a thing with him.
Any thoughts on this list that did well? No magus but due top8d somehow.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=16326&d=300813&f=LE
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Last edited by nimkee; 09-14-2017 at 01:34 AM.
Honestly, I really like it. I don't have the cards (duals) to do BR Gris, so I went mono black. After seeing this list, I shifted a small number of cards around to make it play like this version (dropping exhume, removing the chancellors and that was mostly it). Skirge works real well, and the extra mana for shallow grave seems to be less of a hindrance than I thought it would be. I feel it is much faster than the BR version and the discard protection is very helpful. I don't have all the cards in the above GrisStorm list, but here is the list I am running:
Creatures
1 Grave Titan
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Skirge Familiar
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Iona, shield of Emeria
//Spells
4 Animate Dead
1 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Chrome Mox
4 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Lotus Petal
4 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Duress
//Lands
13 Swamp
That is going off memory, but I think the list is right. I don't have thoughtsieze or IoK, or tutors, just working with what I have in the collection currently so obviously this isn't a final, optimized list. Shallow grave Gris into a tendrils or into a skirge into a tendrils or emmy are the main game plans. I really like the deck and its speed.
Regarding Skirge, it can be a bit of a gamble but the CC stuff works out that you can reanimate him after drawing 14 with Gris. It puts you at 1 life, but that can be the difference between winning then or passing the turn. Haven't decided on a SB plan yet but the main is pretty smooth. Otherwise skirge is just plain filthy in this deck. He is my second reanimation target and depending on my hand/opponent, my first.
edit: updated list above with actual. had the lands a bit off and a few other +1/-2 to correct.
Last edited by ronco; 09-17-2017 at 08:09 PM.
Some new lists posted on Hareruya over the holidays:
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD39736S/ rather similar to an earlier list, finished in the top 16 of a 189-player tournament
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD00688TA/ especially interesting for a Massacre Wurm main and 2 Archfiend of Ifnir in the side. Not sure how often the -1/-1 of Ifnir will actually trigger though. Is the ability to hit the yard at instant speed good enough?
Has anyone on the thread been able to log some matches with this archetype lately? I haven’t but will try later in January and post back here.
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I don't play competitively at the moment so my crappier version a few posts above is what I still run with. The challenge I run into with mine is the lack of search (faithless looting, tutors, etc). If I don't have the cards in my opening hand its a mulligan or just hope I top deck, so I pack extra discard in hopes of buying time. I can't vouch for either version in the links for lack of playing them, but the list that I modeled mine off can be stupid fast and set the combo up more frequently than I gave it credit for when originally looking at the build.
I'm intrigued by the Nagahashi Ray version of Griselstorm, mostly because it's LED-less.
In that version, would it be viable to include one or more copies of Phyrexian Metamorph to copy a previously reanimated Resolute Archangel while going off with Griselbrand, thus restoring life total multiple times?
Or would that be a terrible idea? Perhaps there's just no space for it.
Also, would Burnt Offering (likely sacrificing the Archangel) be a better card in the slot currently occupied by the lone Cabal Ritual in Ray's version?
The problem with Burnt offering is that it does nothing until you have reanimated someone. At least Cabal ritual can be used to setup the combo.
For the metamorph, the question is what do you cut for it? 3 mana plus 2 life is also more than the cost of reanimating a CoK if you were into repeated life gain. Also you can always sac the angel to CT and reanimate it.
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So i saw some sweet tech out of Japan this last week and made a list based on that. Currently this is what I have
1 Children of Korlis
2 Magus of the Will
4 Griseldaddy
3 cabal ritual
3 collective brutality
3 corpse dance
4 dark ritual
4 entomb
2 infernal tutor
2 masterminds acquisition
4 shallow graves
3 thoughtsieze
1 unburial rites
4 LED
4 lotus petal
2 lake of the dead
4 fetches
2 scrubland
8 swamp
*Sideboard*
1 collective brutality
2 defense grid
1 emrakul, the aeon's torn
4 monastery mentor
1 pithing needle
2 seal of cleansing
1 silent gravestone
1 tendrils of corruption
1 tidespout tyrant
1 toxic deluge
Masterminds acquisition is amazing, using all the Mana you make with rituals to wish for emrakul or tendrils, or to tutor up the win from your deck. If you wanted to keep it mono black you could drop the scrubs and switch mentor for grim monolith, but mentor is a solid stormy backup. I've really enjoyed the list.
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Tune in for Jeff Hoogland’s stream on Twitch. I donated to have him play one of the lists from Hareruya and it’s coming up next :-) https://www.twitch.tv/jeffhoogland
Edit:
Here's the replay on YouTube: https://youtu.be/-54h5tb4yz4
Last edited by BaroqueW; 02-06-2018 at 03:10 AM.
Here's a list I'm starting to test out:
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Lake of the Dead
3 Polluted Delta
2 Scrubland
8 Swamp
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Children of Korlis
1 Grave Titan
4 Griselbrand
1 Magus of the Will
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
2 Unmask
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Shallow Grave
2 Unburial Rites
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
Sideboard:
2 Collective Brutality
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vindicate
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Pithing Needle
3 Silent Gravestone
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Still need to figure out the right balance of discard/creatures/reanimation spells. I need to pick up a 2nd Grave Titan to fit in the 75 somewhere too. Plan B options are Monastary Mentor for decks with Leyline/RiP and silent gravestone for decks with Surgical/DRS since Exhume and Shallow Grave both get around Silent Gravestone.
When I saw the list first time I knew that as a former Tin Fins player I had to build it. So I finally got the cards and got to play this on a 5-man tournament today:
4x Collective Brutality
3x Exhume
3x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Thoughtseize
1x Unburial Rites
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
4x Shallow Grave
2x Grave Titan
4x Griselbrand
2x Magus of the Will
16x Swamp
Sideboard
3x Duress
2x Grave Titan
4x Grim Monolith
2x Lake of the Dead
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Swamp
Round 1: 0-2 vs Sneak and Show.
Game 1 I kept a 5 card hand that has turn 2 kill. But it did not go as planned since my opponent casted Force of Will to my Entomb and I never found a way to get a creature into graveyard before he casted Show and Tell into Omniscience into hardcast Emrakul.
Sideboard: -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Magus of the Will, -1 Collective Brutality, +3 Duress.
Game 2 I also kept a 5 card hand that had possible turn 2 kill, but even after turn 1 Thoughtseize taking out Grafdigger's Cage, he could find a Force of Will with Ponder and used FoW on my Entomb. Later as I was trying to draw something that could bin a creature he casted Sneak Attack and then used it to attack me with Emrakul. GG.
Round 2: bye
Round 3: 2-1 vs 4c Loam
Game 1 I kept a 5 card hand that did not have a kill but had some disruption. That was a mistake. He turn 1 could put Liliana of the Veil into play and then started upticking it and ultimating it. Then he got a clock and I could not find anything to combo off.
Sideboard:
-4 Lion's Eye Diamond, -3 Infernal Tutor, -2 Magus of the Will, -1 Tendrils of Agony, +4 Grim Monolith, +2 Grave Titan, +2 Swamp, +2 Lake of the Dead.
Game 2 I actually reanimated Griselbrand 3 times because of couple sacrifice effects but finally got there by hardcasting Grave Titan.
Game 3 I hardcasted turn 2 Grave Titan even though there was a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben on the table. Then I even reanimated the same Grave Titan with haste after he had died to double block.
My first experiences of the deck is that it is not that consistent, but plan B works fine. It also seems the game is hard to lose if you actually get Griselbrand into table and get to draw cards. I kinda want to test Burning Wish version of this deck at some point, but I also want to play this more to figure out how bad the deck is against blue decks.
I've played Burning reanimator before as well, and right now I think I like the mostly black with a splash of white better right now. Burning wish is fine, but it takes up a lot of your SB slots so harder to have a plan B.
A couple Unmask might help against blue decks in 1 or 2 of the collective brutality/thoughtseize slots. Just to give you some free discard for fast hands or for when you draw with Grisel.
Unmask is a good suggestion. I have to try them out once I get my hands on them as I currently don't own any copies.
For BW version of the deck, it seems fine having Monastery Mentor as plan B, as it seemed solid during my times playing Tin Fins. But I think one big plus on being mono black is that we get around Wasteland and even more so around Blood Moon. Or maybe one part of the spirit of the deck is that you don't have to buy dual lands to play it (hence it is named "Mono Black Griselstorm"). Though a set of Grim Monoliths cost the same as couple Scrublands. I do believe that my current mono black tranformation sideboard of hardcasting Grave Titans, which takes 10 card slots, is too many slots given for plan B.
As for what comes to the disruption package, it seems juggling with 8-10 discard spells and having to pick between Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Collective Brutality and Unmask is quite difficult. Thoughtseize is catch-all. Cabal Therapy has the needed sacrifice our creature when we cannot combo on same turn and need to setup a kill for next turn. Collective Brutality works against Deathrite Shaman. And Unmask is "free".
For reanimation spells, I would love to have slots for full Shallow Grave and Exhume sets, then that single Unburial Rites. If the deck would play Children of Korlis, then couple Reanimates would not hurt (in place of Exhume).
Even with mono black it feels we have too many good cards to try to fit into the deck.
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