Is there a need for a colorless Show-and-Tell hatecard?

[Ingo]

There are some devastating, colorless hatecards against combo. Against Storm, there's chalice of the void, sphere of resistance (or it's cousin thorn of amethyst), or Trinisphere. Against Reanimator, there's Grafdigger's Cage, Surgical Extraction and Leyline of the Void.
Because these cards are so backbreaking, Reanimator and Storm devote quite some sidespace to answers. However, against Show and Tell there's no specific colorless hatecard. The closest is Karakas, which isn't really backbreaking considering Griselbrand drawing cards in response, or Sneak Attack being activated twice. The best backbreaking hatecard is Containment Priest, which isn't colorless.

Isn't it strange Wizards hasn't printed such a colorless hatecard yet, in comparison to the stuff they printed against Reanimator, or Storm? Is there a gap in today's existing colorless hatecards, specifically geared against Show and Tell?

[Whitefaces]

Spine of Ish Sah?

[Crimhead]

S&T needs different answers depending on what it does. Ensnaring Bridge stops Emrakul. Needle stops Griselbrand. 3Ball stops Omnitell.

If you want a corlourless catch-all answer, maybe Warping Wail?

S&T isn't exactly running amok. The idea that the format needs more ways to beat it is extremely questionable to begin with.

[icedagger]

There are some devastating, colorless hatecards against combo. Against Storm, there's chalice of the void, sphere of resistance (or it's cousin thorn of amethyst), or Trinisphere. Against Reanimator, there's Grafdigger's Cage, Surgical Extraction and Leyline of the Void.
Because these cards are so backbreaking, Reanimator and Storm devote quite some sidespace to answers. However, against Show and Tell there's no specific colorless hatecard. The closest is Karakas, which isn't really backbreaking considering Griselbrand drawing cards in response, or Sneak Attack being activated twice. The best backbreaking hatecard is Containment Priest, which isn't colorless.

Isn't it strange Wizards hasn't printed such a colorless hatecard yet, in comparison to the stuff they printed against Reanimator, or Storm? Is there a gap in today's existing colorless hatecards, specifically geared against Show and Tell?

Is it really necessary that there be a universal hate card for SnT? The deck doesn't seem to be causing any trouble at the moment, and between discard, counters, and specific answers like Ensnaring Bridge, most tier decks have some way of disrupting the combo or at least slowing it down long enough to win.

[Megadeus]

Spine is probably the best catch all. You probably need pressure on board to be able to capitalise on it if your opponent puts Griselchimp into play and draws a million, but it's probably the best. The thing with a colorless answer I guess that is being said is it needs to be castable as well. If it isn't castable then what's the point in not just running like Ashen Rider or something?

[Ingo]

Is it really necessary that there be a universal hate card for SnT? The deck doesn't seem to be causing any trouble at the moment, and between discard, counters, and specific answers like Ensnaring Bridge, most tier decks have some way of disrupting the combo or at least slowing it down long enough to win.

S&T isn't exactly running amok. The idea that the format needs more ways to beat it is extremely questionable.

I'm not saying Sneakshow is overly dominant in the meta, but rather that Wizards has printed many colorless options to battle specific combo-matchups, while staying soft on cheat-fattie-from-hand-archetypes. For example, Grafdiggers Cage is an absurdly effective hatecard against Reanimator, just like Leyline of the Void. I do have the impression Wizards favors SneakShow over Storm or Reanimator in this way.

I think Containment Priest could easily have been a colorless artifact instead of a white creature, while Grafdigger's Cage could have applied to cheat-creatures-from-hand as well.

[Zombie]

The idea that the format needs more ways to beat it is extremely questionable to begin with.

It still sees play though D:

[Crimhead]

It still sees play though D:

Yeah. When I see threads like this I tend to wonder if the OP simply doesn't think S&T deserves to be a tier-1 deck. Not every deck is going to have a reasonable chance to beat every single deck in the format. Some decks are going to be dogs to S&T - that's how it goes.

[Fox]

Spine of Ish Sah?

Add to that Uba Mask. Omni and SnT are completely contingent upon having a card in their hand. Without completely invalidating the mechanic of a card drawn going to hand, there is also Thought-Knot Seer. Then you have Warping Wail.... There isn't really a deficit in this area.

[Crimhead]

I'm not saying Sneakshow is overly dominant in the meta, but rather that Wizards has printed many colorless options to battle specific combo-matchups, while staying soft on cheat-fattie-from-hand-archetypes.

Fair enough. But your title does suggests you think the format actually might "need" more answers; as opposed to a simple curiousity.

For example, Grafdiggers Cage is an absurdly effective hatecard against Reanimator, just like Leyline of the Void. I do have the impression Wizards favors SneakShow over Storm or Reanimator in this way.

One could argue that WotC has overdone it a little on the grave-hate.

On the other hand, one could also argue that grave decks need more dedicated hate. Dredge is very hard to beat if you don't cut off the graveyard. Similarly, my Lands deck is not really going to be shut down by discard, removal, or counter-magic - those can only stall me.

Decks that cheat in fatties can be more easily shut down by versatile disruption not specifically dedicated to hosing that strategy.

I think Containment Priest could easily have been a colorless artifact instead of a white creature, while Grafdigger's Cage could have applied to cheat-creatures-from-hand as well.

It could have been, and I think that would have been fine.

Given some of last year's printings, I think somebody in R&D must love Death & Taxes.

[Zombie]

Yeah. When I see threads like this I tend to wonder if the OP simply doesn't think S&T deserves to be a tier-1 deck. Not every deck is going to have a reasonable chance to beat every single deck in the format. Some decks are going to be dogs to S&T - that's how it goes.

I just don't think the deck is particularily interesting as far as combo decks go - blue shell, cast a single broken spell, oh look I won, such excitement. It's just the dullest safest combo deck there is. It's not a complicated Rube Goldberg engine the way Storm and Elves often play out as, the shell is boredom concentrate compared to something like Painter where you use a bunch of oddball cards to do oddball things and when comboing out actually have to expose both pieces - the first piece itself isn't even a threat, while any random S&T has to be treated as lethal. Tide is similar in construction but again a high activity high synergy engine deck. The creatures S&T cheats into play aren't even interesting anymore. Old cheat-a-fatty decks put into play some oddball things that put you way ahead but weren't ohlols I win buttons, the current crop of payoff cards is highly binary and thus, at least to me, highly boring. That it stays as one of the biggest faces of combo in the format is a disappointment.

In that specific regard, yeah, I don't like that it is a tier 1 deck. Otherwise whatever. But it's an active agent of boredom at least for me.

[Ingo]

Fair enough. But your title does suggests you think the format actually might "need" more answers; as opposed to a simple curiousity.

Ok I see your point.
A better title could have been: Is part of SneakShow's T1-strength that Wizards does not print the same amount of dedicated hate, in comparison to other combodecks like Reanimator or Storm?

I think it's remarkable how much dedicated (colorlessly usable) hate there is on Storm and especially Reanimator, in comparison to SneakShow.

[Crimhead]

@ Zombie, I agree it's not the most interesting deck in the meta (though I have certainly had some interesting games against it). The only less interesting deck (off hand) would be Belcher.

Me I feel that while decks like that might make for less interesting matches, the possibility of facing them adds a little intrigue to meta-game decisions.

Ok I see your point.
I think it's remarkable how much dedicated (colorlessly usable) hate there is on Storm and especially Reanimator, in comparison to SneakShow.

Part of this might be coincidence. Grafdigger's Cage was probably printed for Innistrad Standard which needed graveyard hate. DRS, Spellbomb, Extraction, and RIP were also in Standard concurrent Innistrad. When was the last time cheating in fatties was a thing in Type II? Was it as fare back as Tooth & Nail?
Combo is no longer part of Standard, so they no longer feel the need to print combo hate.

Also, as I had said, there are usually more ways to deal with cheat-in-a-fattie.dec than with recursive graveyard shenanigans. Emrakul and Griselbrand are particularly troublesome, but by the time Griselbrand was a big player WotC had more or less abandoned Legacy in favour of Modern.

Storm hate also is mostly pretty old - much of it predates Storm! WotC used go actually support prison decks. Prison pieces hurt Storm but not S&T. Closest we get to prison pieces these days are white hatebears for midrange decks (which also hurt Storm).

None of us can say why WotC does what they do, so I'm just throwing some ideas out.

[Ronald Deuce]

Duplicant seems pretty good. So does Goblin Charbelcher.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and Ensnaring Bridge and Noetic Scales.

[Lord Seth]

Honestly, if we're going to count Spine of Ish Sah then you really should count Ashen Rider as an even better "colorless" answer (unless you're playing a deck that's actively trying to ramp into the Spine rather than just drop it into play off Show and Tell).

[Zombie]

That's another thing about Show and Tell - the card really doesn't check out many traditional indicators that something broken is happening: Expensive cards getting cast? Nope, the spell is under 4cc (contrast Storm engines, NO, GSZ, Time Spiral, Aluren, Sneak Attack, Through the Breach...). Many spells per turn? Nope, single sorcery on one turn, about as fair as it gets card logistics wise (Storm, Glimpse, High Tide, Aluren, Food Chain). Things entering play from unnatural zones? Nope, creature from hand, pretty much the poster child of "fair things happening" (contrast graveyard or library ie. Elves, Welder, Reanimator, Misthollow Griffin...). Search effects? Nope, cantrips and Cunning Wish. Odd costs being paid? Nnope. Not until you're dealing with the 7/7 flying lifelinking Demon someone thought it would be a good idea to staple onto Bargain while leaving out the draw step clause... (Did I ever mention that I think Griseltard and pals are dumb?)

Most other combo decks in the game abuse some of the above mechanisms to ramp up things to the unfair/broken territory, S&T just skips all of it. Pretty much the only thing that hits that card's pricepoint and mechanism is "enters the battlefield without being cast". It's a hilariously specific effect that, in current times, mostly hits largely fair green value engines. There's just not much interesting ways you can even attack the deck. It's just cantrips and clunkers with a result of you died. Plus it enables one of my pet cards-to-hate aka Leyline of Your-Hand-Is-Awesome-Or-Not.

[Crimhead]

That’s a really good post, and helps explain why most police cards don't hose S&T.

Things entering play from unnatural zones? Nope, creature from hand, pretty much the poster child of "fair things happening" (contrast graveyard or library ie. Elves, Welder, Reanimator, Misthollow Griffin...).

In fair magic, creatures enter play from the stack, not from the hand. I'm not trying to nit-pic, and I realise you understand this (hence your contrast).

I'm only chiming in to point out that WotC prefers to design cards that make sense to players who don't know what a stack is.
Containment Priest was a clever way to hose S&T without referencing the stack, but I'm not surprised that so few cards hose this effect. Like you said, this is very specific text and hoses a lot of fair decks.

Edit - just realised Containment Priest hoses Dryad Arbor even if played from the hand! It's never come up for me.

Also, I can't seem to figure out what your pet card-to-hate is?

[Zombie]

Also, I can't seem to figure out what your pet card-to-hate is?

Leyline of Sanctity. It turns mulligans into a do they have it or not gamble. You can attack S&T effectively with discard, usually, but if they happen to have Leyline your otherwise amazing hand is suddenly half-full of bricks. The effect's binary (=discard turns into straight bricks), doesn't require ingame investment on the S&T player's part (contrast discard, Defense Grid) and not one that really leads to more interesting games - it's just an extra diceroll - and not really a thing most other decks can take the hit for - they either look to play the long game and the bricks would kill them or they're an engine deck and the bricks, again, would kill them. S&T just doesn't give enough fucks.

[Ronald Deuce]

Seriously, team, S&T hoses S&T. Sure is powerful, and sure has a downside.

[MorphBerlin]

I just don't think the deck is particularily interesting as far as combo decks go - blue shell, cast a single broken spell, oh look I won, such excitement. It's just the dullest safest combo deck there is. It's not a complicated Rube Goldberg engine the way Storm and Elves often play out as, the shell is boredom concentrate compared to something like Painter where you use a bunch of oddball cards to do oddball things and when comboing out actually have to expose both pieces - the first piece itself isn't even a threat, while any random S&T has to be treated as lethal. Tide is similar in construction but again a high activity high synergy engine deck. The creatures S&T cheats into play aren't even interesting anymore. Old cheat-a-fatty decks put into play some oddball things that put you way ahead but weren't ohlols I win buttons, the current crop of payoff cards is highly binary and thus, at least to me, highly boring. That it stays as one of the biggest faces of combo in the format is a disappointment.

In that specific regard, yeah, I don't like that it is a tier 1 deck. Otherwise whatever. But it's an active agent of boredom at least for me.

What do you think about other such decks such as Belcher, Mono-R Stompy, or other chalice dekcs? Those are ok because they are not blue and do oddball things?

I find them to be much less intersting, because it mostly boils down to 1. Do you have force? 2. Do they beat them selfs. The games often have 0 play to it and could be played by a algorithm tbh...

S&t at least has some play to it like storm though not as much I would say. Sure they sometimes happen to have their god hands but so those any combo deck doesn't it?

Leyline is really annoying though, because discard is almost the only nonblue way to fight their combo (aside from priest)

If you want to show something in, how about humility? THat actaully stops both creatures forever :D