Show and tell is just another of those super clunky cards that would be nigh unplayable without brainstorm. I rest my case.
As a once and future Enchantress player I will always love and respect Leyline as an anti-combo card. Kind of annoying when the combo decks are running it I guess.
Unless you count all the colourless answers discussed in this thread about colourless answers.
Edict and REB are also format staples.
Last edited by Crimhead; 06-11-2017 at 11:00 AM.
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Originally Posted by Lemnear
I can certainly see why an Elves player wouldn't like lock pieces! IMO lock pieces are valuable police cards which help keep combo at bay. Combo is pretty strong these days, so I'm thinking these lock pieces are important.
Of course I love prison decks, so naturally I have a positive attitude to locks!
(But I love combo too - Elves, Painter, High Tide, and Dredge are among my favourite decks).
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I like lock pieces, I just don't like lock pieces that end the game on the spot. Prisons people actually have to build are totally fine by me and I wouldn't mind more of it. I know D&T isn't your cup of tea but some of the best games of Magic I've ever played have ended in me realizing that I can't effectively play Magic anymore due to the collective burden of multiple prison pieces and have to concede, while some of the worst have been in the style of T1 Chalice on 1, GG that was fun right?
Originally Posted by Lemnear
As a Vintage player I view Shops as a intricate part of the meta whole. You can play a deck built on the ideals of Turbo Zerox but you have to pay the piper when you face him. Legacy, it feels like you get one without the other. You get the Zerox without the punishment.
I like prison decks but I understand why people dislike them. I disliked what Top Miracles did to the format, so I guess I am a little hypocritical in my statement. My view though is that if your forced to build your deck in ways that twist what you can and can't do, just to play a deck that can be stopped by a counter I don't think your doing anything unhealthy for Legacy. If you are able to build your deck to answer everything and you get to play what you like without restrictions, that's when Prison becomes unhealthy.
Is prison unhealthy? No it's actually quite weak. Is it something viewed as not fun? Yes. But those are not the same thing.
Is that really the norm, though?
As a Lands player, I can drop a turn-1 Chalice against Painter or Reanimator and still be unfavoured in that game! Chalice gives me at least a chance in these games, and makes them a little more live.
Against Storm, a turn-1 Chalice or Shpere puts me way ahead, but it's a far cry from GG. Again, it adds a lot of play to what is otherwise a pretty uneventful MU.
The only decks that are dead (against me) to a turn-1 lock piece are Elves and Thresh. But these MUs are pretty much GG regardless. I don't usually bother bringing CotV vs Thresh, and I can beat Elves handily without it too.
I get that Elves are fairly dead to Eldrazi or other Stompy decks, but every deck has it's Achilles' heel.
With Eldrazi in particular, I always though it was the 1-2 Chalice-Thoughknot punch that was the truly deadly play; not just Chalice = gg.
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Honestly, IMO, Priest was a bit much. I love having a side that can screw Elves, Reanimator, Sneakshow, Dredge, D&T?, Maverick, etc.. in one go, but it's a bit ridiculous; and I do enjoy having combo in the meta. Even when in Non-blue I eventually started doing very well by understanding the match and dedicating appropriate and varied hate to it.
I think EBridge is quite a fair way to hate on them in colorless and until recently wasn't very expensive. There probably exists other colorless hate cards in this thread; but I think it's fair to point out that every color is ready to deal with them, save green?
Red -> REB solves most of your problems. Needle and Revoker solve the others.
Green -> Ramp into ensnaring bridge? Win somehow.
Black -> Discard is particularly effective on them by comparison to Dredge, Reanimator, Storm, or Elves; which all are much more redundant and have more than one way to win. Edicts (especially instant speed) are quite effective too.
Blue -> Lol. If we ignore the giant portion of the card pool that is relevant, we can still have Gilded Drake, Sower of Temptation, and similar.
White -> As mentioned, Containment Priest and it's new instant speed cantripping variant, which I forget.
If standard can just be a vessel that recruits legacy players and not hate out combo completely, I'll be satisfied
Priest was made with Vintage, not legacy in mind. I could find the post, it's on the archive TMD, a Wizards employe stated on the record it was made to combat Oath.
Aetherworks Marvel is currently ruining the game as we speak according to Standard players. Collected Company probably should've been banned in standard. Granted, a Cage effect would've hit Company.
Good post. Sums up the reason I loathe S&T as well. The games against it are so binary. The omni-sneak hybrids have made it particularly obnoxious because there's wildly different answers for S&T->Omni or S&T->creature or Sneak Attack. So you can have your "answer" and just not have it be the right answer. Pushes people even farther into blue decks of their own because you have to fight it on the stack since letting it resolve is often just misery.
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Eh?
Apart from the >26% meta share cited, they offered this:
It's presumptuous to assume a virtual consensus among Legacy players that S&T is [i]unhealthy]/i] for Legacy. A bkt dull, but unhealthy? I imagine most of us think a heavy-handed "fun policing" banned list policy would be far more detrimental than any given deck in this meta.We've spoken with a variety of Standard players in recent weeks, from pros to local grinders, on the merits of banning versus not banning, and here, at least, there was a virtual consensus—the card Aetherworks Marvel is not healthy or fun for Standard.
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Yes.
To everyone saying "derp how do you print one card to do this" - literally just print Containment Priest on a card that costs without the body. How hard is that?
Show and Tell is a dumb fucking card, Show and Tell decks are dumb fucking decks and Show and Tell players are dumb fucking apes.
Ban dumb fucking apes!
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All people are dumb fucking apes It's a scientific fact.
Supremacy 2020 is the modern era game of nuclear brinksmanship! My blog:
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You can play Lands.dec in EDH too! My primer:
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I can think of a 'Hatecard' for Show and Tell in every color, including a number of colorless answers.
But I suspect the purpose of your question is different entirely:Originally Posted by Original Poster
Check out my Legacy UBTezz Primer. Chalice of the Void: Keeping Magic Fair.
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Playing since '96. Brief forced break '02-04. Former/Idle Judge since '05. Told Smmenen to play faster at Vintage Worlds.
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Most of the 'Ban brainstorm!' arguments are based on the logic that 'more different cards should get played in Legacy', as though the success or health of the format can be measured by the portion of cards that are available and see play. This is an idiotic metric.
A+B combo decks are the natural evolution of combo though, as power creep hits and hits. How do you expect a deck like storm, which is really all gear and cogs, to keep up with A+B combos under the presence of Thalia, Chalice, Trinisphere, Pillar, Leyline, and the list goes on? All the conventional "combo" hate does is hit storm, and then there is "graveyard" hate to hit GY decks.
Decks that play A, resolve B are the future of Magic, imo. Turbo-Depths and SnT just dodge too much conventional "combo" hate to have it be any other way. Why try to chain 10 spells together and Mind Twist myself when I can just try to resolve 1 spell at 3cc with no draw-backs?
edit: SnT and Tubo Depths break some more rules in that they are 2-card combos, but you only need to resolve 1 spell on the stack to enable them. Dark Depths is a land so dodges countermagic, and with Show and Tell the +B part of the combo always stays in hand. This is a sharp turn from other A+B combos like Splinter Twin, where you need to resolve one, protect it, untap, resolve another piece. And this is, imo, why they are so strong, because the games comes down to resolving some stupic 3cc sorcery or 2cc creature. They are just on another plane of existence.
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