Is there a need for a colorless Show-and-Tell hatecard?

[Gheizen64]

Show and tell is just another of those super clunky cards that would be nigh unplayable without brainstorm. I rest my case.

[Crimhead]

As a once and future Enchantress player I will always love and respect Leyline as an anti-combo card. Kind of annoying when the combo decks are running it I guess.

Leyline is really annoying though, because discard is almost the only nonblue way to fight their combo (aside from priest)

Unless you count all the colourless answers discussed in this thread about colourless answers.

Edict and REB are also format staples.

[Zombie]

What do you think about other such decks such as Belcher, Mono-R Stompy, or other chalice dekcs? Those are ok because they are not blue and do oddball things?

I find them to be much less intersting, because it mostly boils down to 1. Do you have force? 2. Do they beat them selfs. The games often have 0 play to it and could be played by a algorithm tbh...

S&t at least has some play to it like storm though not as much I would say. Sure they sometimes happen to have their god hands but so those any combo deck doesn't it?

Leyline is really annoying though, because discard is almost the only nonblue way to fight their combo (aside from priest)

If you want to show something in, how about humility? THat actaully stops both creatures forever :D

Nope don't like T1 combo decks or T1 lockpiece gg decks either. I want to play Magic not play War.

I'm an Elves player primarily so Humility sounds more like pointing a shotgun at my own leg than a good plan ^^'

[Crimhead]

Nope don't like T1 combo decks or T1 lockpiece gg decks either. I want to play Magic not play War.

I'm an Elves player primarily so...

I can certainly see why an Elves player wouldn't like lock pieces! IMO lock pieces are valuable police cards which help keep combo at bay. Combo is pretty strong these days, so I'm thinking these lock pieces are important.

Of course I love prison decks, so naturally I have a positive attitude to locks!
(But I love combo too - Elves, Painter, High Tide, and Dredge are among my favourite decks).

[Zombie]

I can certainly see why an Elves player wouldn't like lock pieces! IMO lock pieces are valuable police cards which help keep combo at bay. Combo is pretty strong these days, so I'm thinking these lock pieces are important.

Of course I love prison decks, so naturally I have a positive attitude to locks!
(But I love combo too - Elves, Painter, High Tide, and Dredge are among my favourite decks).

I like lock pieces, I just don't like lock pieces that end the game on the spot. Prisons people actually have to build are totally fine by me and I wouldn't mind more of it. I know D&T isn't your cup of tea but some of the best games of Magic I've ever played have ended in me realizing that I can't effectively play Magic anymore due to the collective burden of multiple prison pieces and have to concede, while some of the worst have been in the style of T1 Chalice on 1, GG that was fun right?

[Dice_Box]

As a Vintage player I view Shops as a intricate part of the meta whole. You can play a deck built on the ideals of Turbo Zerox but you have to pay the piper when you face him. Legacy, it feels like you get one without the other. You get the Zerox without the punishment.

I like prison decks but I understand why people dislike them. I disliked what Top Miracles did to the format, so I guess I am a little hypocritical in my statement. My view though is that if your forced to build your deck in ways that twist what you can and can't do, just to play a deck that can be stopped by a counter I don't think your doing anything unhealthy for Legacy. If you are able to build your deck to answer everything and you get to play what you like without restrictions, that's when Prison becomes unhealthy.

Is prison unhealthy? No it's actually quite weak. Is it something viewed as not fun? Yes. But those are not the same thing.

[Crimhead]

T1 Chalice on 1, GG that was fun right?

Is that really the norm, though?

As a Lands player, I can drop a turn-1 Chalice against Painter or Reanimator and still be unfavoured in that game! Chalice gives me at least a chance in these games, and makes them a little more live.

Against Storm, a turn-1 Chalice or Shpere puts me way ahead, but it's a far cry from GG. Again, it adds a lot of play to what is otherwise a pretty uneventful MU.

The only decks that are dead (against me) to a turn-1 lock piece are Elves and Thresh. But these MUs are pretty much GG regardless. I don't usually bother bringing CotV vs Thresh, and I can beat Elves handily without it too.

I get that Elves are fairly dead to Eldrazi or other Stompy decks, but every deck has it's Achilles' heel.

With Eldrazi in particular, I always though it was the 1-2 Chalice-Thoughknot punch that was the truly deadly play; not just Chalice = gg.

[tescrin]

Honestly, IMO, Priest was a bit much. I love having a side that can screw Elves, Reanimator, Sneakshow, Dredge, D&T?, Maverick, etc.. in one go, but it's a bit ridiculous; and I do enjoy having combo in the meta. Even when in Non-blue I eventually started doing very well by understanding the match and dedicating appropriate and varied hate to it.

I think EBridge is quite a fair way to hate on them in colorless and until recently wasn't very expensive. There probably exists other colorless hate cards in this thread; but I think it's fair to point out that every color is ready to deal with them, save green?

Red -> REB solves most of your problems. Needle and Revoker solve the others.
Green -> Ramp into ensnaring bridge? Win somehow.
Black -> Discard is particularly effective on them by comparison to Dredge, Reanimator, Storm, or Elves; which all are much more redundant and have more than one way to win. Edicts (especially instant speed) are quite effective too.
Blue -> Lol. If we ignore the giant portion of the card pool that is relevant, we can still have Gilded Drake, Sower of Temptation, and similar.
White -> As mentioned, Containment Priest and it's new instant speed cantripping variant, which I forget.


If standard can just be a vessel that recruits legacy players and not hate out combo completely, I'll be satisfied

[Dice_Box]

Priest was made with Vintage, not legacy in mind. I could find the post, it's on the archive TMD, a Wizards employe stated on the record it was made to combat Oath.

[maharis]

When was the last time cheating in fatties was a thing in Type II? Was it as fare back as Tooth & Nail?
Combo is no longer part of Standard, so they no longer feel the need to print combo hate.

Aetherworks Marvel is currently ruining the game as we speak according to Standard players. Collected Company probably should've been banned in standard. Granted, a Cage effect would've hit Company.

I just don't think the deck is particularily interesting as far as combo decks go - blue shell, cast a single broken spell, oh look I won, such excitement. It's just the dullest safest combo deck there is. It's not a complicated Rube Goldberg engine the way Storm and Elves often play out as, the shell is boredom concentrate compared to something like Painter where you use a bunch of oddball cards to do oddball things and when comboing out actually have to expose both pieces - the first piece itself isn't even a threat, while any random S&T has to be treated as lethal. Tide is similar in construction but again a high activity high synergy engine deck. The creatures S&T cheats into play aren't even interesting anymore. Old cheat-a-fatty decks put into play some oddball things that put you way ahead but weren't ohlols I win buttons, the current crop of payoff cards is highly binary and thus, at least to me, highly boring. That it stays as one of the biggest faces of combo in the format is a disappointment.

In that specific regard, yeah, I don't like that it is a tier 1 deck. Otherwise whatever. But it's an active agent of boredom at least for me.

Good post. Sums up the reason I loathe S&T as well. The games against it are so binary. The omni-sneak hybrids have made it particularly obnoxious because there's wildly different answers for S&T->Omni or S&T->creature or Sneak Attack. So you can have your "answer" and just not have it be the right answer. Pushes people even farther into blue decks of their own because you have to fight it on the stack since letting it resolve is often just misery.

[Crimhead]

Aetherworks Marvel is currently ruining the game as we speak according to Standard players.

It's by understanding that (good) combo decks are being purposely not supported in Standard. When was the last time a combo deck won the Worlds? Dragonstorm?

Regarding Marvel, I guess you don't need to print combo hate if you're just going to ban the combo decks!

[Claymore]

Funny how the official reasoning behind banning Marvel could be almost exactly applied to Show and Tell.

[Crimhead]

Funny how the official reasoning behind banning Marvel could be almost exactly applied to Show and Tell.

Eh?

Apart from the >26% meta share cited, they offered this:

We've spoken with a variety of Standard players in recent weeks, from pros to local grinders, on the merits of banning versus not banning, and here, at least, there was a virtual consensus—the card Aetherworks Marvel is not healthy or fun for Standard.

It's presumptuous to assume a virtual consensus among Legacy players that S&T is [i]unhealthy]/i] for Legacy. A bkt dull, but unhealthy? I imagine most of us think a heavy-handed "fun policing" banned list policy would be far more detrimental than any given deck in this meta.

[Stevestamopz]

Yes.

To everyone saying "derp how do you print one card to do this" - literally just print Containment Priest on a card that costs without the body. How hard is that?

Show and Tell is a dumb fucking card, Show and Tell decks are dumb fucking decks and Show and Tell players are dumb fucking apes.

[Undomian]

Show and Tell is a dumb fucking card, Show and Tell decks are dumb fucking decks and Show and Tell players are dumb fucking apes.

Preach!

[jandax]

Ban dumb fucking apes!

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Crimhead]

All people are dumb fucking apes It's a scientific fact.

[Ellomdian]

I can think of a 'Hatecard' for Show and Tell in every color, including a number of colorless answers.

But I suspect the purpose of your question is different entirely:

"I'm one of the people who think every color should be equally represented in Legacy results, and my pet, Non-U deck has no real out to SnT. Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

[Ingo]

I can think of a 'Hatecard' for Show and Tell in every color, including a number of colorless answers.

But I suspect the purpose of your question is different entirely:

You could also just read the thread. That way, you would actually know the purpose of the question.

Is part of SneakShow's T1-strength that Wizards does not print the same amount of dedicated hate, in comparison to other combodecks like Reanimator or Storm?

[Kanti]

I just don't think the deck is particularily interesting as far as combo decks go - blue shell, cast a single broken spell, oh look I won, such excitement. It's just the dullest safest combo deck there is. It's not a complicated Rube Goldberg engine the way Storm and Elves often play out as, the shell is boredom concentrate compared to something like Painter where you use a bunch of oddball cards to do oddball things and when comboing out actually have to expose both pieces - the first piece itself isn't even a threat, while any random S&T has to be treated as lethal. Tide is similar in construction but again a high activity high synergy engine deck. The creatures S&T cheats into play aren't even interesting anymore. Old cheat-a-fatty decks put into play some oddball things that put you way ahead but weren't ohlols I win buttons, the current crop of payoff cards is highly binary and thus, at least to me, highly boring. That it stays as one of the biggest faces of combo in the format is a disappointment.

In that specific regard, yeah, I don't like that it is a tier 1 deck. Otherwise whatever. But it's an active agent of boredom at least for me.

A+B combo decks are the natural evolution of combo though, as power creep hits and hits. How do you expect a deck like storm, which is really all gear and cogs, to keep up with A+B combos under the presence of Thalia, Chalice, Trinisphere, Pillar, Leyline, and the list goes on? All the conventional "combo" hate does is hit storm, and then there is "graveyard" hate to hit GY decks.

Decks that play A, resolve B are the future of Magic, imo. Turbo-Depths and SnT just dodge too much conventional "combo" hate to have it be any other way. Why try to chain 10 spells together and Mind Twist myself when I can just try to resolve 1 spell at 3cc with no draw-backs?

edit: SnT and Tubo Depths break some more rules in that they are 2-card combos, but you only need to resolve 1 spell on the stack to enable them. Dark Depths is a land so dodges countermagic, and with Show and Tell the +B part of the combo always stays in hand. This is a sharp turn from other A+B combos like Splinter Twin, where you need to resolve one, protect it, untap, resolve another piece. And this is, imo, why they are so strong, because the games comes down to resolving some stupic 3cc sorcery or 2cc creature. They are just on another plane of existence.