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Thread: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

  1. #461

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    A friend of mine reached the Top 4 with Bomby at MKM series Paris (+200 players) while I dropped at 4-4 :(
    The deck went perfectly fine for him and he played it as well.

    As far I’m concerned I faced :
    Moon stompy :0-2
    UW Blade : 1-2 (no luck with mulligans)
    Infect : 2-1
    Infect : 2-1
    Moon stompy : 0-2 (so much fun)
    Burn : 2-1
    Infect : 2-1 (wtf...)
    Elves : 0-2

    I won the toss only once or twice in the end of the day.

  2. #462

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Yeah, moon stompy is a pretty sorry matchup, even on the mono-white plan; the fact that it's so bad regardless is one of the reasons I'm partial to the rainbow build.

    You seem surprised that you beat infect? My experience had been that the matchup is decent at worst.

    How was elves? I normally feel favored there, so I'm surprised to see you 0-2'd.

    London mull is officially coming to legacy. How'd you guys find it did here? Boon or burden? I'm looking forward to it, but I didn't get to do any real testing with it when it was out on mtgo.

  3. #463

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    I’m not surprised that I’ve beaten Infect : it cannot really compete with Ballista and Chalice is hard for it too.
    Also I’m a regular player of Infect myself.
    I’m just surprised to have faced 3 infect (and 2 Moon stompy) out of 8 rounds.
    Note that an Infect player lost the finals vs Slow Depths.
    The metagame breakdown gave us : 5 infect, 5 moonstompy... :)

    I’ve lost to Elves because the guy fetched for Reclamation Sage to get rid of Chalice then comboed off with Glimpse G1. I had a good start with T1 mentor + 2 tokens but I only could smash lands 2 turns in a row...
    G2 he was pretty locked by Chalice and C-Priest but he managed to hardcast Hoof for 16 damage...

    I think both the deck and the pairings have not been very kind to me yesterday..
    Last edited by Adibou1er; 06-04-2019 at 05:05 AM.

  4. #464

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Just took this deck to a local FNM and my god what a pile of crap... . I went 1-3 with the only matches I won was because my opponent mulled to 5. I lost against storm, punishing thieves and miracles with literally 0 percent chance of even winning a game... . This deck has no carddraw, no cardfiltering, no removal and only chalice as disruption which is not that strong a card anymore in today's meta. You lose against every deck that plays discard, removal or counters and have to play with only half a sb. I fail to see how this deck can win a match against literally any tier 1 or 2 deck 🤔.

  5. #465
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by mulder View Post
    Just took this deck to a local FNM and my god what a pile of crap... . I went 1-3 with the only matches I won was because my opponent mulled to 5. I lost against storm, punishing thieves and miracles with literally 0 percent chance of even winning a game... . This deck has no carddraw, no cardfiltering, no removal and only chalice as disruption which is not that strong a card anymore in today's meta. You lose against every deck that plays discard, removal or counters and have to play with only half a sb. I fail to see how this deck can win a match against literally any tier 1 or 2 deck 🤔.
    Not sure if trolling, but I'm sorry you had a bad experience with it. Shouldn't let one bad experience decide for you whether or not the deck is a "pile of crap". Plenty of people here, in the discord and online have recognized the power level that is here. I've had no issues against anything tier in my personal experience.
    Once you go Legacy...

  6. #466

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Has anyone tried Echo of Eons in a UW Build? I've been playing WB in paper whenever I'm back in Boston at my weeklies and Bobs have been treating me well against most decks. Being able to loop a couple EoEs with Mentor or Salvagers out sounds like a blast; my worry obviously is refilling my opponents hands or fizzling. I also like the added "Mulligan" power that it could bring to the table, especially with London Mull coming to Legacy.

  7. #467
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by mulder View Post
    Just took this deck to a local FNM and my god what a pile of crap... . I went 1-3 with the only matches I won was because my opponent mulled to 5. I lost against storm, punishing thieves and miracles with literally 0 percent chance of even winning a game... . This deck has no carddraw, no cardfiltering, no removal and only chalice as disruption which is not that strong a card anymore in today's meta. You lose against every deck that plays discard, removal or counters and have to play with only half a sb. I fail to see how this deck can win a match against literally any tier 1 or 2 deck 🤔.
    Maybe you did a few things wrong. I honestly have to say that I felt in love with this deck today ;). Received the last missing cards a few days ago and since then I was goldfishing every day. Today I had the chance to play my first real games in a small tournament. I went 4-1 and had a beautiful day today + found my new main deck ;D.

    1. Round 2-1 against Maverick
    2. Round 1-2 against Aggro Loam
    3. Round 2-0 against Grixis Control
    4. Round 2-1 against Black Reanimator
    5. Round 2-1 against Eldrazi

    Played the mono white list with 20 Lands and 4/4 Karns.

    Not sure if it's allowed to post links here, but the tournament was streamed.
    The quality is not great, and it's without sound, but at least all the matches that I won was on cam ;)
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/442586690

  8. #468
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by StefN View Post
    1. Round 2-1 against Maverick
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/442586690
    At 9:16 Maverick player equips the sword when you have Karn in play :/ Glad that you still won the round though.

  9. #469

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Bit tardy, but wanted to share my 5-1 list from MF Seattle MCQ on Saturday.

    Beat Ruby Storm, 4c Loam, Grixis Control, Dredge, UR Delver. Lost to Infect.

    Tiebreakers were decent, but going into R6 I was in 18th place and needed a miracle to sneak in which obvs didn't happen.

    Losing to infect was a bummer since it's a great MU for us. But I also was pretty lucky throughout the day so can't complain.

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Urza's Bauble
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Lion's Eye Diamond

    3 Walking Ballista
    4 Auriok Salvagers
    4 Monastery Mentor

    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Cavern of Souls
    5 Plains
    2 Karakas

    3 Karn, Scion of Urza
    4 Karn, the Great Creator

    15 Sideboard
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Mycosynth Lattice
    2 Containment Priest
    1 Walking Ballista
    1 Cast Out
    2 Seal of Cleansing
    3 Swords to Plowshares

    I wanted to post because of two deck-building decisions that I think are still worth discussing. First, basic lands. We gain a very small % playing ancient den via boosting Karn tokens and enabling Opal, but we open the door to wastelands, other Karn Creators, and b2b/moon hurting us which I find unacceptable as a 1 color deck. Many times during the tournament like vs 4c Loam I was able to establish a board by dropping basics while facing down KotR or similar. The ability to go basic land, pass, followed by sol land into 3/4 drop is also very underrated. The absolute worst feeling in this deck is having no t1 play, then getting wastelanded. I sincerely don't think Ancient Den is worth playing, barring a specific meta that's fast like combo heavy or whatever. The downsides outweigh the upsides IMHO.

    Second is the Seal of Cleansing in sideboard. It is something discussed earlier in this thread, but Seal is good vs S&T, allows us to pump our mentor and not wait for a target, and is also pretty good vs other Karn Creator decks by not having to worry about tapping out. It obviously has some downsides, but I think people have forgotten it as a very viable option as compared to the stock answer of Disenchant.

    This was my first time playing bomberman in a while, so was just in awe all tournament at how good Karn Creator is in the deck. So much fun to play. Glad we keep getting so many new toys. Cheers and thanks for reading.

  10. #470
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaono View Post

    I wanted to post because of two deck-building decisions that I think are still worth discussing. First, basic lands. We gain a very small % playing ancient den via boosting Karn tokens and enabling Opal, but we open the door to wastelands, other Karn Creators, and b2b/moon hurting us which I find unacceptable as a 1 color deck. Many times during the tournament like vs 4c Loam I was able to establish a board by dropping basics while facing down KotR or similar. The ability to go basic land, pass, followed by sol land into 3/4 drop is also very underrated. The absolute worst feeling in this deck is having no t1 play, then getting wastelanded. I sincerely don't think Ancient Den is worth playing, barring a specific meta that's fast like combo heavy or whatever. The downsides outweigh the upsides IMHO.

    Second is the Seal of Cleansing in sideboard. It is something discussed earlier in this thread, but Seal is good vs S&T, allows us to pump our mentor and not wait for a target, and is also pretty good vs other Karn Creator decks by not having to worry about tapping out. It obviously has some downsides, but I think people have forgotten it as a very viable option as compared to the stock answer of Disenchant.
    I agree with your point regarding the basics, however, I must point out that Disenchant is absolutely vital for Karn mirrors, as Seal can not interact with anything once an opposing lattice hits the table.
    Once you go Legacy...

  11. #471
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Another Saturday, another small tournament. We played 4 rounds today and I went 4-0 and made 1. place.

    1. Round against Eldrazi. 2-1
    2. Round against Burn. 2-0
    3. Round against ANT. 2-1
    4. Round against Goblins. 2-0

    Today I played with 19 lands (1 Karakas). 3 Mentor, 4/4 Karns, 30 Artifacts (8 Bauble, 4 Ancient Den). Had 2 first turn kills with Salvager. This deck is insane ;).

  12. #472

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Played a small tourney yesterday and boy, it was miserable.
    R1 against grixis 4c 0-1
    G1 fast combo
    G2 he forces (or kills) my first 3 plays (Karn, Salvager, Salvager) and I end up drawing nothing more then lands, petals and baubles. I die through Jace ulti.
    G3 I mull to 6 and never see more then 2 lands (non-sol ofcourse).
    R2 against Maverick 0-2
    G1 i manage to get him down to 3 and then he stabilizes and begins the waste lock with Knight beatdown. I never managed to get the combo.
    G2 he has a T2 Teeg and T4 waste lock.
    R3 against Lands 0-3
    G1 I mull to 5 and he has a quick waste lock
    G2 I manage a T2 Lattice lock
    G3 I mull to 5 again and get stuck on 2 lands.
    I drop with a very frustrated feeling.
    This was my list:
    4 Plains
    2 Den
    4 City
    4 Tomb
    4 Cavern
    1 Karakas
    4 Salvagers
    3 Mentor
    1 Canonist
    1 Tomik
    3 Ballista
    4 Karn GC
    2 Karn, Scion
    3 LED
    4 Cotv
    4 Opal
    4 Petal
    4 Urza Bauble
    4 Mishra Bauble
    SB:
    1 Ballista
    1 LED
    1 Lattice
    1 Spyglass
    1 Bridge
    2 StP
    2 CRypt
    2 CPriest
    2 Disenchant
    1 Cast out
    1 Generous Gift
    Tested the Gifts as a catch all in the side and happy about it. It cleaned a Jace, Narset and Teeg. Canonist main is because I don't have the 4th mentor and it plays well with our main plan. Tomik was a test in a slot for Karn, Scion as I expected a lot of W6, but I never saw him (or W6). Only 2 Karn Scion as I feel that 4 is definitly 1 too many and am testing now with 2 and Tomik.

  13. #473
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sg Schultz View Post
    Has anyone tried Echo of Eons in a UW Build? I've been playing WB in paper whenever I'm back in Boston at my weeklies and Bobs have been treating me well against most decks. Being able to loop a couple EoEs with Mentor or Salvagers out sounds like a blast; my worry obviously is refilling my opponents hands or fizzling. I also like the added "Mulligan" power that it could bring to the table, especially with London Mull coming to Legacy.
    I've considered it as I've been tinkering with a UW Skycloud Expanse build for Teferi, TR / Intuition, but with Mystic Forge if anything I'd be leaning back towards Mono-Colored rather than going down the priority list of Blue Splash cards.
    I have stumbled across people playing around with this however



    It's not a direction I'm personally interested in (and I'm far more open to a splash color than most), but there's a direction if you're still looking for one.

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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Speaking of Mystic Forge, here is some footage (for as long as Twitch keeps it up) of it being run on camera at the team SCG event today. (Spoilers: They don't end up winning the game in question, but it's a good showcase of how the card plays for those considering it as a Karn, SoU alternative).

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/455916284?t=04h10m06s

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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    So, here's what I'm planning on running tonight with reasoning. Any and all feedback is appreciated



    So the premise of the blue splash is as follows:

    1) I'm playing in a local meta where I believe Walking Ballista is less valuable as an independent midrange threat. (It is a non-card in several matchups)

    2) Comboing off with Mentor, Karn TGC, a Bauble, or the 1x Ballista is more than sufficient.

    What I currently believe:

    1) My combo is occasionally a turn slower since I'm leaning more on comboing off bauble and drawing the deck, but is more consistent thanks to Teferi providing extra resiliency and what amounts to 3x instant speed Demonic Tutors that can occasionally grab extra value.

    2) I am worse against Thalia decks.

    3) I am better against blue Control decks than other Mystic Forge lists without Karn, SoU. I am more powerful than lists without Mystic Forge.

    4) Four effective Basics is sufficient insulation against Wasteland decks for the archetype. It's not as good against Back to Basics as the 7 Plains lists, but I'm gaining far more points against the decks that run that card than I'm losing so it's still a net positive. Also, Basics are preferable to Artifact Lands in world with Wrenn and Six and without Scion of Urza.

    5) I am extra weak to Damping Sphere, but I've never run into that card.

    6) Skycloud Expanse is generally preferable to Tundra in a deck where you never cast a spell or activate an effect with a cost WW, UU, or U (or very rarely W), want to cast a UW1 spell, and have lots of colorless lands. (Playing Teferi Turn 2 is nice)

    7) Teferi, TR not only protects against both countermagic, removal, and troublesome permanents (which is nice maindeck), he interacts wonderfully with Mentor, Mox Opal, and Lion's Eye Diamond + Mystic Forge / Mishra's Bauble.

    8) Both Intuition and Prismatic Vista interact favorably with Mystic Forge.

    9) In the Eye of Chaos is worth bringing in against Blue decks.

    10) Were I running Disenchant over Seal of Cleaning I would be the slight favorite in the Bomberman Mirror due to the flexibility maindeck Teferi gives me for leveraging Chalice on 0 and my ability to tutor on Turn 2. Running Seal of Cleaning over Disenchant is a meta call given that I rarely ever see the Karn Mirror and I want to bring in Seal in the same matchups as In the Eye of Chaos, plus I can play it proactively and trigger mentor. I can't as confidently claim advantage in the mirror, but given what I picked up before the sacrifice it doesn't feel a huge problem.

    11) 1 Fetch with 3 Basics is acceptable. It's unusual, but I think it unlikely to bite me.

    Things I myself am skeptical about:

    1) Is 1 Swords enough with a lesser density of maindeck Ballista?

    2) I'm currently on Oblivion Ring over Cast Out because I'm clearly leaning into the Blue Control matchups. Is that worthwhile or a net loss?

    3) I currently don't feel like Urza is worthwhile. Does the independent existence of "Urza Stompy" argue against me here?

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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Been experimenting with cleaning up and focusing the UW list



    Still 4 "Basics"but may want to move to 5. Just focused on being as consistent as possible and moving the powerful but less consistent Forge to the sideboard for Game 1 as a Karn target. Commit as an experimental Cast Out replacement as it does much the same as Cast Out does, trades time for answerability, has the significant bonus of interacting with spells, and can be leveraged to make make messier Intuition piles with even a marginal aftermath with a bad Echo of Eons strapped on for value. Given the number of targets that don't mind going straight to the yard my dream is to find a card worth playing maindeck just to constant eek out extra value when using Intuition as a 3-mana Karn-style LED tutor.

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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Making a slight change to how I'm playing the UW list




    Creatures (10)
    2 Walking Ballista
    4 Monastery Mentor
    4 Auriok Salvagers

    Planeswalkers (6)
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler
    4 Karn, the Great Creator

    Spells (3)
    3 Intuition

    Artifacts (21)
    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    3 Mox Opal
    3 Urza's Bauble

    Lands (20)
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 City of Traitors
    1 Island
    2 Plains
    1 Prismatic Vista
    4 Skycloud Expanse

    Sideboard (15)
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Walking Ballista
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Nature's Chant
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Mystic Forge
    1 Mycosynth Lattice
    1 Wurmcoil Engine
    1 Commit // Memory


    Two most questionable parts remain

    1) Whether Commit makes any sense in the Sideboard as a Cast Out replacement.

    2) Whether the 4th Skycloud expanse wants to be a 5th Basic / Fetch.

    Here's the note on part 2 - Mathematically, if you run a 3 Basic / 2 Fetch arrangement of lands, don't draw more than 3 in the opening hand, play the members of the set you draw every turn, and ignore situations where you draw more than one in a single turn due to Bauble, if you draw every member of the set you have a 50% chance of drawing a dead fetch. (Basically, assign an order to the 3/2 split A, B, C, D, E. 40% of the time E will be a fetch, and 10% of the time the exact arrangement should be B B F F B and obviously the second fetch would not have a target remaining). So just "adding a Flooded Strand" has this particular cost. Replacing with an Island or Plains (would probably be plains, but do keep in mind that all the creatures also enjoy the luxury of the 4x Cavern of Souls as additional manasources, so I'd want to do the hypergeometric calc on it) has its own obvious cost.
    Last edited by Rationalist; 07-27-2019 at 01:15 AM.

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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Spent an hour or so running through all of the combinations of mana to investigate the "5th Basic" idea.



    Above are the distributions I calculated, with my math included. With respect to Basics (I will fold fetches under this umbrella for now), running 0 - 8 'Basics' grants you between a 0% chance and a 65.4% chance of having one in the opening hand to allow you to insulate against wastelands, with diminishing returns the more you add. Increasing from 4 to 5 increases these odds from 40% to 47.5%, granting an extra 7.5% chance of having such a card in the opening hand. Running through all the possible combinations of cards that would allow the player to play Teferi turn 2 on the play (meaning 7 other cards), the chance that a set of 7 cards is able to provide the mana for Teferi with precisely 2 land drops decreases from 38.2% to 34.8%, a drop of only 3.4% Looking towards a bit farther on towards the midgame, I also did the combinatorics for how well any 3 random manasources would be able to cast Teferi with respect to the change. With a strict limit of 3 random manasources, the chance that those 3 are able to produce the appropriate 1UW drops from 70.9% to 67.8%, a drop of only 3.1%

    Obviously both of these numbers converge to high values as the limit on manasources is expanded.

    All in all, replacing 1 Skycloud Expanse with 1 Plains lines up better against an opposing Wasteland in the opening hang 7.5% of the time, and only gets in the way of casting a Teferi in the early to mid game about 3% of the time. This ratio diverges if one continues to replace Expanses with Basics, as even on 5 one is only ~10% under the rate of the 7 Basics lists, so I currently doubt more than 5 Basic/Fetch are worthwhile given the diminishing returns, but I am more heavily considering the change in question (or, alternatively, dropping the 4th Cavern).

    Also, the hypergeometric distributions necessarily include a calculation for the chance of Skyclouds causing a problem because they don't provide mana on their own. (I've faced a lot of skepticism on the mere use of the card Skycloud Expanse). When limited to only 3 mana sources, one of which is an Expanse, the calculated risk of this causing a "seize up" is less than 1%. Also, reducing the count to 3 Expanse would lower this calculated risk to less than 0.1%.

    (EDIT - There is a slight typo in the math to the mid-to late game calculations. I won't go back to correct it, but the actual numbers should be correct)
    Last edited by Rationalist; 07-28-2019 at 11:19 AM.

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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    A quick sequel to the above. The success of a colleague with a 3 Cavern list resonated with my own experience, so I ran the numbers on cutting Caverns back to 3 on the UW list I've been developing.



    Assuming I did the math right, it turns out that while it only halves the loss of the ability to play Teferi T2 from -3.2% to -1.6%, it actually slightly increases the ability to play Teferi in the mid-to-late game, as the losses made by Skycloud + Colorless are more than made up by the gains in providing mana off of Basics and Basic + petal configurations (math included above).

    This means that I can configure the deck in such a way that I'm actually only a single basic/effective short of the more recent stock 'mono' lists (6 v 7), which represents only a 6% difference in the likelihood of opening with a basic/effective-basic, and a then smaller than 6% difference on having the "2nd basic" on T2. All while actually increasing the mid-to-longterm ability to cast Teferi, and only decreasing the chance of having the mana to cast him Turn 2 by 1.6%.

    This would make the current list


    Creatures (10)
    2 Walking Ballista
    4 Monastery Mentor
    4 Auriok Salvagers

    Planeswalkers (6)
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler
    4 Karn, the Great Creator

    Spells (3)
    3 Intuition

    Artifacts (21)
    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    3 Mox Opal
    3 Urza's Bauble

    Lands (20)
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 Cavern of Souls
    4 City of Traitors
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Island
    3 Plains
    1 Prismatic Vista
    3 Skycloud Expanse

    Sideboard (15)
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Walking Ballista
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Containment Priest
    1 Disenchant
    1 Nature's Chant
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Mystic Forge
    1 Mycosynth Lattice
    1 Wurmcoil Engine
    1 Commit // Memory

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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Just doing some more math and keeping a record of my findings here. Now that the manabase includes 2 fetches, I did a hypergeometric investigation of replacing the 3rd Skycloud with a single Tundra in order to improve the quality of the two fetches. I don't believe I'm going to, and here's why:



    All in all replacing a 3rd Skycloud with a 1st Tundra prevents Teferi from being castable on Turn 2 ~2.3% of the time, and prevents you from casting him off of 3 random active manasource in the mid-to-late game 1.5% of the time. Also these losses are buffered by the fact that the combinatorics just says that you'd be casting him off of a petal more often, which is a note because it's an additional resource that's being expended that isn't obvious just by stating the total % decrease.
    All in all I'd say it generally "makes the 2 Teferi a worse card ~2% of the time".

    Not a huge loss, but how useful is fetching up a Tundra? There are the same number of Fetches as Teferi, and a given fetch would be sans a 2nd colored mana (including Caverns) in the company of 8 other random cards ~4% of the time. I suspect I would not need to fetch a nonbasic Tundra in over 50% of those situations to simultaneously cast one of the decks 3 non-Teferi Blue Cards as well as a White card (of which there are only 8) off the same manasource. I would need to think through how those densities are likely to change postboard, but I'm still highly skeptical they'd get me wanting to fetch a Tundra over 50% of the time when I'm starved on color with a single fetch.

    It's a plausible change with small numbers in either direction but I think overall it's for the worse. I just don't think I want to spend my fetchland getting a nonbasic so I can cast one of 8 cards along with one of 3 cards off a single colored source that often, and I'd certainly want to put more of a load of spells to cast off of lands rather than petals all else being equal.

    So for tonight I'm probably sticking with this list



    Still super skeptical about the Commit in the board, but the mana feels great (at least anecdotally), Teferi answers so much of what the decks wants to answer from Ouphe to Removal to Counters to Dreadhorde Arcanist and Enchantments, and it's more direct and focused with blue tutors that can even eek out extra graveyard-value over forges that are mostly good with a pre-existing mentor and otherwise roll the dice and try to dig to action. Forge is still very good and I have one in the 75, but I don't think what the combo deck I want to pilot wants more in the main is a slightly inconsistent value-tool.

    EDIT: Sorry for how "loud" the images are, but I think a visual record of the specifics is the best way to record the individual findings. If this thread becomes more popular again I will stop doing so, but as there's only been one other post in this thread within the last month I'm just recording the findings in the clearest way I can without worrying about the posts being "overpoweringly loud". I will try to shrink those images a bit though.

    (EDIT #2: I want to run more numbers on the blue section of the manabase, however.)
    Last edited by Rationalist; 07-29-2019 at 06:17 PM.

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